Please help - things have moved on and I really need some advice...

[nambysm]

Phew - now all that bizarre stuff is coming to a natural end can I have some attention please?

I don't want to drip feed so ask away if things aren't clear but there is a backstory that a lot of you are aware of so I won't repeat the whole thing now if okay.

DH got DSD's phone bill today (she is on a contract which is £20 a month for her iphone as he works for a phone provider so half price of £40) it came in at £60 and when he investigated it was because she has been sending picture messages which she has been warned about and spending too long online.

First question - what would you have done?

He called her up, told her what had happened and said he had disconnected her internet for one month (she can still use calls and texts) and she would have to pay him back.

She said she wasnt happy with that, not fair etc etc (standard teenage, no big deal)

But then she calls back and he was in the loo (he actually was not like piratesdh) so she left him the longest, eaariest VM I have ever heard. Totally cool calm voice, sounded just like her Mum, emphasis on same words etc. saying the most horrid, personal things ranging from "You are dead to me, I have never loved you" to "Your beard makes me feel sick" "No one has ever loved you, no one cares about you" "Stepdad is my real Dad, he actually has a heart" "you disgust me and you will never see me again" "you have a hunchback you pathetic little retard" (he has a slight bump in his spine and it's one of the things that his ex wife used to pick on)

She says she'snot coming to us tomorrow for my DD's birthday party (She should be here tonight but as often happens, something else came up)

I could go on.

Where do we go from here? My heart is breaking for him. He has been amazing throughout this whole thing. When she originally pulled away from contact after CSAgate he took a while to decide if the time he spent with her should be "Disney" to protect the scraps of her that he had left, or if he should continue to try to parent her. He decided the latter and I am so proud of him as it isn't easy.

But this is just unbearable. Because of the scenario her mum has created, DSD is unable to see these situations for what they are. I mean, this is soooo normal. I don't expect her to say, "Why, thank you Daddy, this discipline will enable me to grow in to a responsible young lady" I would expect a level of resistance - maybe even a screamed "I hate you!" I know I said that to my dad a few time (Sorry, Dad - I now know how that must have felt!) but she can only see it in the context of how she perceives DH to have treated her Mum when they spilt up, and what a victim her Mum and her are and, crucially, the competiton for her Mum to be top parent.

I advised him to contact Mum and ask for a meeting with the three of them to get all this out in the open (mum has signed that she's having teen troubles) but Mum as come back to say no, I have the normal teen roblems but I can handle them, DD just doesn't want to see you and hasn't for quite some time - I have told her she has to as it's the law (WTF!? It's not, and DSD isn't that stupid. Plus, what kind of a mixed message when back in December she was told she didn't have to come here anymore as Mum was main parent and it was up to DDand her if she saw Dad!)

I'm at a loss. What can we do? DH is so upset.

The impact on my DD was my biggest consideration - she worshiped DSD and the let downs, cancellations and bitchiness really hurt her

I remember my DP being where yours is now; feeling like he'd lost a daughter and wondering where it all went wrong.
Looking back, the decision he would change if he had known them what he knows now is allowing contact to stop completely.

It is incredibly hard to maintain contact with a child who is disrespectful, abusive and vile to you and your family BUT - if contact is lost completely, that DC has no regular reminders of the alienated parent; they create a Bogyman image in their mind based on the reinforcement of the favoured parent, and there is no opportunity for the alienated parent to demonstrate that the image is one sided. If he can, I urge your DP to maintain that contact.
That doesn't mean that he doesn't parent her- although the reality is that it's not possible to influence manners etc during once a week contact. DP has decided not to pull DSD up for bad language or texting during conversations, for instance - she is old enough to decide for herself if that's how she wants to behave.
But, if your DD would be better off without contact with DsD for a while, for instance - then as parents, you and DP can make that happen. Your DP can meet DSD away from the home, or DSD can visit when your DD is at her Dads - and stick to that. If DSD tries to dictate the schedule, take back control; if she says she'll only see DP at a time when your DD is there, then DP can say that he will meet her elsewhere - its up to her, of course DP would like to see her, but right now, it's best for everyone if DD and DSD have a break from each other.

One thing that has made a big difference is DP writing to DSD. He timed the letters arrival to coincide with the agreed contact time that DSD was refusing. DSD mum tried to stop DP writing the letters - telling him that 'they were not well received' but DP has persevered. They kept DSD up to date with changes in DPs life - so she knows her Dad a lot better than he knows her at the moment!

If contact ceases completely, do not despair! I remember a former MN regular telling me that - and I thought at the time 'what does she know? This is never going to be resolved' Not only was that MN'er right (and she knows who she is if she's reading this) but the speed with which things changed was incredible.

Your DSD mum is not going to be able to sustain her BFF pretence when DSD begins to display signs of independence, and that's when their relationship will break down and DSD will need her Dad.
DSD isn't her mums BFF - in her mums mind, she is an extension of herself, which will only work all the while DSD makes the choices and decisions that her mum approves of. When DSDs behaviour deteriorates and is criticised by people that her mum wants to look good to, then DSD will be subject to her mums displeasure and will suddenly lose that golden child status.

DSD mum turned on DSD when her behaviour got so bad that her own mum (DsD grandma) refused to babysit the DSC's while their mum worked. Grandma had had enough, and DSD mum couldn't bully grandma into doing what she wanted for once - so DSD made her mum look bad and made her life difficult (she needs to work), so suddenly, DSD was no longer in favour, and their BFF relationship fell apart.

Thanks both

notnow I think that is where dh has got himself with the vicoius cycle. We are at the point now where opportunities to praise DSD are so few and far between that I'm not surprised she feels like all he has to say is negative. We did have a couple of nice visits a week or so ago though and we were both very affectionate and really engaged with her. It was hard to say "well done" as such because you can't really say that when someone is nice... but we both acted very happy with her and spent time alking, listening, laughing etc. Because her attitude was so good i didnt ask her to wash up or help me clear the table etc. I didn't want to ruin the happy atmosphere. So it really isn't as thogh she has a horrible time here.

I think it all began when they spilt up and Mum made it clear to her DD that she was very sad about the split and upset when dsd visited her dad. Dsd was always worried about her so had real seperation anxiety during visits. She was always fine all day then Mum would call at bedtime and it would always end with DSD in tears. She has been taught that Mum is pleased when she hears that DSD is unhappy here and it has just carried on.

Now Mum is saying "I've told DD I think she should come to you, but I can't force her" and it's just an absolute joke given everything thats happened.

NADM I will mention the writing again, I have suggested it to DH on your reccommendation before but he didnt really take it up. It makes a lot of sense though so I'll give it another bash. What do you think about mediation? Mum is flat refusing the three of them getting together for a talk - she says it will just make SD feel "got at". But do you think anyone could enforce mediation?

The BFF cracks have shown already when DSD hasn't done as Mum wants. She is a classic narc so the narc rage presents itself if DSD doesnt conform. DSD isn't a natural conformist (although is with Mum) so as she gets older and more independant I think there will be strain on the relationship.

Ithink you are right about DSD. At first, we were both adamant that the tiny amounts of contact DH had was done in time that DD was here so she got to see her sister. But actually I think now I'd rather she didn't see her. It is heartbreaking to see DD being pushed away. I can't let them be alone together as I'm terrified DSD will say something mean to her. I have witnessed her doing this already. It's not the normal older sister telling little sister to get lost... it's really spiteful and DSD loves to get a reaction from DD.

In fact, when I look back over the last couple of years, DSd has always been visibly pleased when DD is in distress. She is alos really cruel about other girls in her year and puts mean things on their facebook photos too. There was a sitiation a year or so ago when DH went to parents evening and witnissed DSD and her Mum giggling and pointing in an obvious way about an overweight hard-up girl in DSD's year. Aparently DH was mortified as the grl was upset.

Maybe she is just a nasty girl? I have never wanted to say that really as she is just a child. But when does "just a child" become responsible for her actions?

On the subject of "BFF" DSD actually said to me a couple of months ago that she and her Mum are so close becuase when Dad "left" they had to move away because they couldnt afford to live in the area they were in before (This is utter BS as they lived in a cheap area that Mum never liked because she has ideas of grandeur, after the divorce she actually chose to move in to a better area even though it meant DSD wasn't close to her friends). Mum has a car and it was about a 10/15 minute drive away from old area.
But she said that because of the situation Dad had put them in, they didn't have any friends and the two of them "only had eachother" from then on...

DSD used to sleep in bed with Mum (right up to when Mum got a boyfriend at which point DSD was booted out) because mum was sad and lonely and cried when DSD wasn't in bed with her.

I'm going to have to stop talking about it now as I'm so angry about how this child has been treated and how it's now affecting all of our lives.

Have you read "How to talk so Teenagers will listen...". I think you do need to try to praise her even for tiny things she does right, and be specific, so not "thanks for being nice" but "thanks for not putting your muddy Doc Martens on the coffee table" or "thank you for remembering to thank DD for getting you a tissue, I know that made her feel appreciated" or even "I love the colour of your new t-shirt".

But maybe you need a break first?

I hope you can keep a channel for her open, it does sound as if her mother hasn't had her best interests at heart.

Ooh thanks, I'll get that one. I have read "Get out of my life but first take me and Alex in to town" Which was very good.

You are right about the praising. We do try, I'm probably better at it than DH to be fair and it is him that she needs to hear it from. He does praise, but not as much as you are suggesting mummytime I will certainly speak to him about it in a couple of days when we've had a bit of a break.

Any other book reccommendations?

DH is getting really frustrated about Mum quoting her Childcare course at every available opportunity. It's great that she's done it, but after all it teaches how to care for other peoples children in a professional setting (and covers 0-19) - very different from being a parent.

I do not think it a good idea to put your DP, his ex and DSD in a room together - even if they are all willing to try it - it will give ex an opportunity to 'play the victim' as soon as DP says the slightest thing that she doesn't agree with. Right now, your DSD isn't ready to accept that her mum isn't perfect and that her dad isn't all bad - she has categorised her parents like that, and she can't be told anything different - eventually she'll come to a different conclusion on her own.

The parallels between our situations are incredible - you really are dealing with an almost identical situation to we were a year or so ago; right down to the bed sharing. Even the CAFCASS report identified that DSD had a unnaturally high level of concern and responsibility for her mums emotions.

I take that onboard NADM I guess I just thought if they all sat together it might come out that DSD has lied about so many things (which is why I think Mum is a gainst it as she'd rather DSD was allowed to go on lying) but it is probably futile.

Well, if our situations continue to run the same courses then it sounds like in a year or so we might see things looking up! How old was your DSD when CAFFCASS did their report?

She's deleted us both from FB... I know you'll say that's a good thing NADM it just seems so final

NAMBYSM. I follow your threads and those of NADM as we have much in common. I have concluded that the youngest of my 3 steps, who we (her dad and I) haven't seen for nearly 12 months, is actually a spoiled young lady (aged18) who is also rather cruel. She looks down her nose at others, makes fun of "special needs kids" (my son has asd) and refers to "spazzes" which causes much hilarity. She won't visit our home as she doesn't want to be reminded of my existence. This often upsets me, on dh's behalf, but for myself, it's fine. She is not nice and I simply can no longer make the effort to welcome/like her.

I should add, her mum's affair caused the end of her parent's marriage. I came along 3 yrs later. She is also has a loving family, a somewhat privilaged upbringing, a good education and is off to Uni in Sept.

namby DSD was 12 when she saw CAFCASS - old enough to decide for herself whether to have a relationship with her dad according to the court.

I understand what you mean about ex using her 'training' to validate her decisions - but I see that as an opportunity!

Send her a copy of Pluto, and ask for her 'opinion' It sounds like she's no longer openly alienating - she's progressed to the I'm doing what I can but I can't force her stage, which means that she will have to be seen to be open to the idea of solving the problem.
Your DP can pop a copy of the DVD in the post with a note saying it had been recommended to him but he would appreciate her opinion did he watch any of it with DSD in the end? If he did, he could tell his ex that, too.

DP and I learnt the hard way that taking the high road, ignoring ex's behaviour and hoping things will get better wont work. Our seemingly successful strategy was to bring ex's behaviour out in the open, not by challenging it, but by appearing to accept her assertions and statements at face value and presenting reasoned solutions to each issue she raised.

So, when ex told DP that DSD refused to see him and she (ex) wasn't going to force her, DP asked ex what she thought he should do. Did she think that DSD never seeing him was the best solution?. When ex was directly challenged, she wouldn't admit that she wanted DSD to reject DP completely because she knows that would be frowned upon and she cares what others think!

Thats interestng NADM I thought that courts wouldnt be interested if the child was 12 or 13... why do they have cafcass meet the children etc if ultimately the child decides in the end? Is it more that your DH wanted the process followed so he could prove thathe tried? I just looked on their website and they talk about teenagers so I guess that this route is sometimes taken even for older ones... Interesting tact to take too on response to Mum... another thing for me to chat to DH to

Eliza sorry to hear you've been through/ are going through this. Is it just with the one child or are all affected? I am so torn over the "she's just nasty" thing. DSD too makes fun of people with SN. A fat person is also fair game for her. In fact, she has an over weight lady as her banner photo on facebook at the moment. And she has made gay jokes on there too which is embarrassing as my Dad is gay. He deleted her a while back.
She runs the popular crowd at school and decides who is and isn't in favour. She's put "Describe me" as her Facebook status then when the minions pile on to say how beautiful she is but they don't know her that well she invites them to spend more time with her at school. Others are just ignored or made fun of. It really is horrid but I still have a small amount of hope that it is all a front to protect a miserable little girl and that good will out... The chances are getting slimmer and slimmer but I'm not going to give up yet for DH's sake.

Because he is in "Whats the point, I don't have a daughter" mode I want to keep the fight up for him for now.

Yep, fat people, those who have "rough" accents, special needs.....Anyone who doesn't fit her expectations, she ignored me, pretty much from the off, because I tried so hard to get to kow her. I kept plugging away, which only earned her contempt. We're now 6 yrs on. I flatly refuse to put myself up for character assassination, by this young woman again. I've only carried on as long as I have because of dh. Had it been anyone I just "knew" I'd have turned my back on it some time ago.

Thats interestng NADM I thought that courts wouldnt be interested if the child was 12 or 13... why do they have cafcass meet the children etc if ultimately the child decides in the end?

namby - not at all - the same law applies whether the DC is a few weeks old, or a few weeks away from their 16th birthday.

My DP's application to the court was for a joint residency order, and if your DP was to to do the same, the official legal process would followed irrespective of your DSD age (up to the age of 16).

The court can (and probably would) order a CAFCASS report (quite possibly just a Wishes and Feelings report), before making a decision about residency of your DSD. If they award sole residency to one or other parent, they would more often than not consider a contact order with the other parent, as well.

In my DSD's case, because of her age - a court order was issued relating to residency (Mum was awarded sole residency), but a contact order was not issued for DSD (it was for DSS). For DSD, a Court Recital was issued, which is binding on both parents. It sets out days and times for contact between DSD and DP, but states that it is subject to DSD specific wishes. Of course, she more or less immediately decided that she didn't want to see her Dad, so there is no breach of the Recital.

It is likely that the same thing will happen if your DSD mum was awarded sole residency - but don't make the mistake of believing that there is no point in going to court because of your DSD age - the court will consider residency and contact for DC's of any age.

The problem usually comes when a contact order is in place, but the DC has got older and is refusing to see the NRP and the RP doesn't insist - so technically is in breach of the Contact Order. If the NRP goes back to court to enforce the order, the DC is then spoken to by CAFCASS, and often, the result is that the contact order is lifted, and a recital is put in place subject to the DC's wishes.

It makes me so mad - the law really is an ass in this regard - the same parent who the child ha the legal right to refuse to see can also be prosecuted if that same DC refuses to go to school! BONKERS!

It's horrible isnt it Eliza. This is, DSD was very sweet to me for the first 3 years... then she started coming out with things like "Mum and Dad got on until you came along" (Meaning - Dad used to do exactly what Mum told him before you came along - he now has the confidence to assert himself which is probably because I have built his confidence and also he sees the respect with which I treat my ex as a father to my DD)
Now she tolerates me but has no respect for me and any niceness is if she wants something.

I agree it is boonkers NADM! But that is encouraging to know he could still do that. So basically it may be worthwhile for DSD to be heard by cafcass, and for (hopefully) them to record that the concern for Mum and vilification of Dad is a concern. They would then potentially suggest a contact routine which she could refuse but would at least say formally that it is best for her to see Dad - and prove he cares enough to try..? Is that the message?

I think he needs to see a solicitor for the free half hour thingy.

Thanks as ever to everyone who has made the effort to help me out here. I don't know what I'd do without this board, truely x

So basically it may be worthwhile for DSD to be heard by cafcass, and for (hopefully) them to record that the concern for Mum and vilification of Dad is a concern. They would then potentially suggest a contact routine which she could refuse but would at least say formally that it is best for her to see Dad - and prove he cares enough to try..? Is that the message?

Your DP's choice is between a rock and a hard place - he will be the bad guy, whatever he does, but he can influence the type of bad guy he is vilified as. Assuming that DSD mum is alientating in the same kind of way as my DP's ex did, your ex has a choice between either:

"your dad doesn't care enough about you to try and see you. He can't be bothered to make the effort because he's got a new little girl now"

OR

"Your Dad is so mean, he doesn't respect your wishes at all and is going to drag us both through court to force you to see him even though you don't want to."

My DP says that the most liberating moment for him was when he decided to stop making decisions because he wanted to influence DD's opinion of him. No matter what he did, she was going to hate him. Which freed him to make the decisions that he believed were right, without worrying about how they would be received.

I understand how you feel about wanting to keep fighting, namby - but I had to disengage when things got really hard - it's not your fight to fight and you can't win on your own. All you can do is remind your DP that you fell in love with him because he is a fighter and does care so much about his DD. The man you fell in love with wouldn't give up and walk away, would he?

When I say "your ex" I mean, of course, your DP's ex.....sorry!

I think this is where DH is - My DP says that the most liberating moment for him was when he decided to stop making decisions because he wanted to influence DD's opinion of him. No matter what he did, she was going to hate him. Which freed him to make the decisions that he believed were right, without worrying about how they would be received But he's not quite sure what those right decisions are at the moment.

Yes, I can understand your dp trying to pussyfoot around, in order to prevent his daughter's alienation. My dh NEVER got tough with his dd and the first time he did...... He gets the "you've changed since SHE came" line. Well yes, he put his foot down on bad behaviour.

Forgot to say, thankfully I get on well with dh's other two kids otherwise, I really would think it was "me"!

He gets the "you've changed since SHE came" line. Well yes, he put his foot down on bad behaviour.

My DP agrees with this, and thanks them, when his DSD and ex throw it as him an as accusation He has had told them both that, yes, he has changed, he is happy and confident and he's pleased that they have noticed how far he has come since the divorce

First day after dad and I deleted from Facebook (mum is friend of course) and her status update is "done no homework or revision, fuck"

Yes, totally respectful of Mum's authority then.