DD1 kicked her teacher and pulled/pinched her arm :(

[lou031205]

So I suppose this was bound to be coming, right? Her SENCO/1:1 leaves, it is obvious that her behaviour is deteriorating and they & she are struggling.

Today, she kicked her 1:1 and tried to pull or pinch her arm, it isn't too clear. She did hurt the 1:1 because she wears piedro boots, and the soles of those are really hard.

I asked what they did in response, but they seemed a bit vague. She apparently refused to say sorry.

I took her to apologise, which she did. But what else can I do? They didn't phone me at the time, and DD1 can't understand abstract consequence. She needs here and now stuff. It was too late.

I did ask if they write incident reports, and suggested that they start logging any behaviour which results in them getting hurt, so that the LA Inco actually gives them support.

I feel so bad. I know she is only 4, and has LD, but preschool staff shouldn't get hurt when they go to work either

Any ideas from those that have been there, done that, got the t-shirt would be greatly appreciated.

She won't be the first, she won't be the last, and there is probably very little you can do about it except to explain that she needs an instant consequence, not namby pambying until Mummy shows up three hours later.

'preschool staff shouldn't get hurt when they go to work either'

Absolutely. It is a health and safety issue that their employers need to address.

You, as the parent have quite enough else to deal with.

Sorry, btw. It sounds like you've had a bit of a rough time lately.

Cheers, both of you. I love SN for this sort of thing - no-one booing from the sidelines with helpful 'control your child' comments, when you are desperately trying.

"Absolutely. It is a health and safety issue that their employers need to address."

Star, I suppose that's a bit of a tricky one, because technically I am one of their employers - I am on the preschool management committee . Perhaps I should be suggesting that we write a policy to protect them from my child

Don't worry lovie (sorry I call everyone lovie) I have worked with a child before now who has in the past hit/kicked me when they lost control. I would always do the following:

1. Remove shoes (although this may not be easy in your case as she wears Piedro boots) this stops it huring so much.
2. I would if they had lost it take them to their quiet space, to calm and explain the problem.
3. I would dependant on understanding and age try a social stroy etc.

As the LSA when I worked with a nursery age child I would not always tell mum all the problems as I felt that this did not help them or the child and instead compleated my ABC form. I uses to always think that what can the parent do after the event.

I would ask them about what stratergies they are using and talk about the ones you use as this may help your child if you are singing of the dame hymn sheet as it were.

I would be concerned that they don't seem to be able to say how they handled it.

If they don't log things make sure you do.

Not a lot to add .. You are doing your best.. Try not to beat yourself up.

When we had this, I gave school a list of stratagies we have found helpful at school.. Sort of an idiot guide to ds.
( idiot not meaning idiot.. Rather than a you might not know ifyswim).
I tried to tailor it so it could be used in a school setting.
School were very greatful and it seems to be working.

Hth

Should say helpful at home
not helpful at school !

SaliMali1 - thank you. I talk to the preschool leader and the 1:1 of the day (, consistency would be good) each morning, and tell them whether I think they are 'going to have a day' with DD1, based on how well I have found the getting ready process to be. If I have struggled to get DD1 to co-operate (rarely stroppiness, more lacking in concentration & attention/impulsivity) then I give the staff a 'heads up'.

I also tell them daily to please feel free to call me if they need me for any reason, for any part or all of the session.

I have advised them on a few occasions recently that I am using "1, 2, 3...consequence" with DD1. She loves the counting, and focuses so much on choosing which number she will comply by that she forgets to be defiant. Especially if a) the consequence is something she doesn't like/withdrawl of something she really likes and b) she knows the person will follow through ruthlessly (Mummy is a meanie, so she does what I say ).

I always pick DD1 up 10 mins before end of session because they find that time very hard with her. I always ask how the session has been, and if an incident has occured, we 'debrief' so that I know what the incident was, what DD1 has/hasn't done, and what they have done about it. I always insist that DD1 apologises to whichever teacher she has defied/shouted at/whatever before she leaves, and that she looks at them when she does so.

Unfortunately, preschool have never had a child with significant SNs before, and are finding DD1 a real challenge. Also, they have not yet learned that it is the setting that shouts the loudest that gets the support. They just struggle on, and don't realise that if they were shouting 'help!!!' they would get more support.

Fab - Yes, they were incredibly vague. I think perhaps I miscommunicated, also. I asked "and what did you do?", meaning "what response did you take to her behaviour, so that I can follow through at home?" and at first I think the preschool leader thought I was asking "what did you do to make her behave like that?". Once that was cleared up, though, they got a bit flustered because actually, the nutshell was that DD1 had kicked a member of staff, and they hadn't really done anything - she hadn't even said sorry when asked.

I have asked them to start logging it. But you are right. I need to. Fortunately, I have emails I sent the Portage worker, updating her of how each session had gone, so I can use that to build the picture.

The trouble is that we have another 6 weeks, then the long summer break to survive before she starts Special School.

ArsenicCupcake, I think that will be great for School. unfortunately, to be honest, I think at preschool they are just so inconsistent that they could have a complete manual for DD1 and still press the wrong buttons

You could write them a social story

Would it help the pre school if you had a sit down chat away from your child to discuss how things are going with specific instuctions of what you want them to do and this will give them a chance to talk about any ideas that they have.

I would also add that perhaps could they go to another setting that have had experence of a child with SEN or an assessment unit to see what they do?

ArsenicCupCake, I have suggested that they tell DD1 a 'special story'. She loves to 'fill in the blanks' in a story if she is upset/distressed. So I say "once upon a time there was a little girl called (DD1). She was very, very (sad/angry/happy). DD1 wanted to do , but Mummy said (no, usually ). This made DD1 very very __...." and so on. It helps her to process what is happening.

So I have said to Preschool that if she gets upset about something that she wants to do that they won't do, they should try that.

SaliMali1, I kind of feel that we should be well past that stage really, to be honest. This is a little girl who has been in the setting 2 calendar years (she joined in June 2008). She has had identified SN since September 2008.

She has a Statement of SEN, which is very comprehensive, and gives very specific strategies which should be used on a daily basis.

The preschool has had OT input every half-term for the last 6-7 half terms, although not since Dec 09. The preschool have had the input of Portage outreach each half-term also.

The preschool has an 8 page report from an educational psychologist detailing DD1's SEN, the difficulties she has, and techniques and strategies to deal with this.

They have also had a visit from the outreach teacher of the forthcoming special school placement, brought on by my phoning the LA to say that her placement at preschool was falling apart and could she start SS early?

Yet, something as fundamental and basic as her 'fiddle box', which the Portage worker asked for, was hidden at the back of a storage cupboard. Little wonder she won't sit still at carpet time.

Her SENCO/1:1 left, and she has been having 1:1 by 4 different people with 4 different strategies and 4 different ideas of where boundaries lie.

Oh, and I lodged a formal complaint with SALT, the department met with me, took on board my criticisms, agreed that they were justified, and offered to stay behind after a training day to discuss some strategies with the preschool, and they declined because they didn't have spare staff

Lou it sounds so, so disheartening. I don't have anything positive to suggest, just wanted to send some supportive vibes.

I think in your place I would probably feel that it is only five weeks left and all you and dd1 have to do is to get through them somehow, and then hope for better from her school.

(Mind you there's six weeks of summer holiday to go before that. Gritting teeth emoticon.)

But I think you've got more of a fighting spirit than I have. Anyway, more supportive vibes coming from here.

I think we are just going to have to get her through it. We are safeguarding the house as much as possible. Acrylic glass sheets have been put up on the banisters to stop her climbing. A brace has been put on the laundry unit door to stop her being able to pull tubs out to use as stools so she can climb over the stair gate and out the house.

Need to think of something to screen off the computer workstation because that is a climbing target.

Preschool. They mean well, but it is a lost cause now, I think.

I phoned OT today and complained that we have gone 6 months without OT, so hopefully that might get moving.

Lou .. Ment it as you should tell school a social story for them.. Not dd sounds like they need one

Lou, nothing to add but {hugs} because I have been there. The worst is when school doesn't tell you that your little girl has bitten someone, and then the parent buttonholes you in the playground - aargh!! Fortunately calming down as DD gets a bit older and gets clearer boundaries and better able to understand them. That said we will all breath a sigh of relief when she goes to special unit next year. You are NOT responsible for what your child does at preschool. It is a matter for the preschool and they need to have a clear strategy on how to deal with it. Don't YOU start feeling guilty about it!!

Thank you all.

Arsenic, sorry daily migraines at the moment so mind firing on 1 cylinder.

Just wanted to add my support (although not much advice I'm afraid). My DS (AS) regularly attacks staff at his school. In fact, he has completely stopped attacking other children and now only attacks adults (at school, not anywhere else). He has punched, kicked and bitten his teacher, LSA, TA and even the headteacher!

It is incredibly distressing for all concerned.

DS's school have had to offer all their staff Team Teach training (training in restraint and how to de-escalate this sort of situation).

He has been excluded seven times this term because of 'violent episodes'. It is incredibly draining for us, his family. The Head at DS's school has even contacted their union regarding DS's attacks against staff. I'm not sure what they expect us to do about it. He is hard work sometimes at home, but he rarely becomes violent.

On one hand, this sort of extreme behaviour, logged in an incident book, can contribute towards a case for more funding/support for your child (sadly). Does she have a statement? You say she is starting at a specialist school in the autumn - that should be a positive step, as I'm sure they will have dealt with challenging behaviour before and have some strategies for dealing with it.

Good luck.

NanKid, sorry you are facing this. I thought I could empathise and imagine what it must feel like to have a child who has shown violence towards staff. I imagined it must be painful to hear. But I didn't forsee that sinking hollow feeling of despair

I also just don't know what to do. I have asked them to log it.

It really is an awful situation to be in. Everybody loses out.

Staff at DS's school are pretty understanding on the whole, but they are knackered with it. His TA has huge black bruises all up one arm.

DS is getting into a complete state on a sometimes daily basis - very draining for him, and creating a cycle of negative experiences in school that is difficult to break.

And then for me and his dad, it is just constant - phone calls from the head, crisis meetings with the SENCo, exclusions. Exhausting.

He hasn't had a major outburst or hit anyone for just over a week now and it is such a huge relief - I keep thinking 'this must be what other parents feel like all the time' - no sense of dread in the pit of your stomach when the phone rings, no sinking feeling when you see the teacher's tense face at pick up time and just know there has been another incident.

His statement is due any day now and I am hoping beyond hope that it does him justice, and that we can start to put in place the support that he needs on a full time, long term basis.

Roll on autumn term, I say!

I don't think I can add to what's already said. You've done everything you can to deal with this particular situation. It's up to them now to work out how to minimise the chances of it happening again and what to do if it does happen again.

All I can say is that I'm glad that DS1 doesn't wear piedros, because yes, they bloody hurt! He's also at an age and level where we can talk (to some extent) about what has happened after the fact. I had him trotting into school with a letter of apology in his hand, this morning after he hurt one of the classroom helpers with some downright silly behaviour, yesterday.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. After me suggesting the staff log any violent behaviour incidents to get more support, they have created an 'incident book'. But they are writing in it everything from screaming and crying to throwing herself on the floor, etc. She has got 4 'incidents' written in there from today alone! I meant for any times when preschool staff were hurt.

Lou, as a SN professional I was reguarly battered and bitten (including needing hospital 3 times) until I learned skills to deal with those situations before they got to that stage. I only got bitten once after that (and that was my fault, went in when I should have backed away.)

Children do not lash out for no reason. My best guess would be there is too much pressure on her in some way. She needs a safe place to be, and the staff need to use limited and consistent language. The approach needs to be super, super consistent - if they are doing the good cop/ bad cop/ alternately cajoling and shouting thing, then they are helping the situation to get much worse, very quickly.

I would highly recommend a trainer called Dave Hewitt, he of Intensive Interaction fame - he has wonderful insight into challenging behaviour - and he makes staff look at how their own behaviour is affecting things. Nan, I am Team Teach trained, and it is really effective if used properly - which basically means, you should hardly ever have to use the physical part of it. If you are getting to that stage often, there is a massive problem somewhere, and usually not with the child IME.

The least I would ask for at this point is a highly detailed Antecedent, Behaviour, Consequence chart, and frequent observations. You can't stop a behaviour through consequences until you know what is causing it.