SEN register

[debs40]

Interestingly, the other mum in DS's class who has a son on the ASD diagnostic waiting list recently realised (after coming to a meeting) that he was not getting any support through SA/SA+ and that she had never been shown an IEP in the two years he had been there, although he has SALT and has been getting some support.

She approaches SENCO who says he has actually been on SA+ throughout this time

She then asks about statementing and is told 'only children falling into the bottom 30% on achievement will ever get a statement, your DS will not get a statement, he doesn't qualify'

So where did that gem come from and why are schools so reluctant to put children on the register??

It sounds like the SENCO at your DS's school does not want the extra work that goes with having a child with a Statement. There are good SENCOs and poor can't be arsed SENCO's and that one falls firmly into the second category.

Anyway your son's school is not great anyway, nothing I have previously read about them has changed my opinion of them in any way. I sincerely hope too you manage to get your son out of there asap.

Have mentioned before that SA plus in many cases is not worth the paper its written on. Only a Statement will bring with it legal rights attached.

I hope your friend did not buy the so called argument put to her in your third para because what she was told was actually a pile of horse poo by this SENCO (who should actually hang his head in shame).

It is probably from the county's own criteria for SA. The London-wide criteria mentions something similar and I expect SENCOs are trained using that rather than the COP.

Ds started school in January 2009 on SA+ and didnt have an IEP in place or receive any help until October 2009. Even now his IEP isnt worth the paper its written on.

SEN register and IEP = listing help and provisions, rather than 'help at teachers discretion'.

When i asked for reasonable adjustments, school told me 'even children with a statement, dont get that kind of help' says who!

Ds's school have about 1 child with a statement. That says it all really!

Its not for a SENCO to decide whether a child is in the category most likely to get a Statement. Many children who appear very able get a Statement.
Also, the disabled register is completely separate to the Statementing process. It is the the "list" kept my Social Svs.

Is this the same mother that you reported was happy with the provision her ds is getting?

Claw I was told by a bunch of professionas that 'There is no point in you getting a statement because your ds is getting everything'.

My reply 'sure, so the reason I'm applying for a statement is because it isn't meeting his needs'!

Star, most professionals and teachers or at least the ones who i have encountered are glorified idiots with a degree who dont have an ounce of common sense between them, who prey on parents having no idea.

It is a couple of years since I was a SENCo but the SEN register was just a ist of who was and was not receiving SEN help. Under the teachers' workload agreement SENCos were relieved of the need to keep a register, although this seemed a bit stupid as there has to be a list I would have thought.
The important thing is the arrangements they are making and if a child is at SA or SA+ there should be an IEP which is seen by the parents, or, as best practice, drawn up with the parents or at least shown to the parents and signed. My own LA were hot on this, as were OFSTED who would pick IEPs at random and look at dates when parents had seen the IEP. Never ceases to amaze me on here to see the differences between LAs.
As for the Statementing issue there isn't a magic percentage of children who get Statements. It does very from LA to LA. In my LA it is undoubtedly easier to get a Statement for a child with ASD, or behavioural difficulties than one who only had learning difficulties because of the need to demonstrate that the child is not able to function without the added help.
claw3 I am glad you think I am a glorified idiot. Actually I fought very hard for the children in my school, often standing up to the Head on their behalf. In my experience, confined to one LA admittedly, most people in SEN care very deeply about the children they work for. My son's SENCo is certainly a force to be reckoned with and has twice in the last week taken issue with staff on his behalf.
I am sorry your experience has been so bad. I have had a few bad experiences myself, but it is like saying that because some parents are bad all parents are bad.

Imahappycamper, i didnt say ALL are glorified idiots by default, just most of the ones who i have encountered.

It's still pretty strong stuff claw.

Well, my experiences have been pretty strong stuff too.

Im not quite sure why someone would be offended, because i have referred to the professionals i have encountered, as this is no reflection on anyone else but the people who i have encountered.

I have to say, sadly, that I agree with claw.

Unitl we went private, I encountered possibly a total of 3 people who actually tried to help dd1 (that's one paed (out of 4), her Portage worker, and her key worker at pre-school)

The rest all claimed t be trying to help her, but were all either just pulling out the SN catch all of visual timetables (which dd1 didn't need) or claiming ot help whilst actually just protectign their own interests, and serving hteir wn purposes.

the one person who didn't get help was dd1 - the very reason they were all there in the first place! her needs were oftenoverlooked, in the name of "not letting her set the agenda"

THe whole area of disability, and in particular SEN, is so overdue for an overhaul - the system doesnot work as it is, too many children are let down, adn only a fraction actually get the help (and advice) they need.

Star - yes this was the woman who was happy with school until she realised (a) that her son's help was not being documented so he not miraculously just get a statement when she wanted one and (b) he actually wasn't getting the help they said he was.

Attila, she has had my SEN COP for the last week and has now seen the light!! She knows that what she is being told is a great big pile of poo.

Imahappycamper, I have had a bad experience but I can say by posting here and on the primary ed board, I have seen that there are schools and SENCOs out there that do treat children properly. It is about understanding needs so they can be met (sometimes simply, sometimes not without a great deal of effort and support) but it is the understanding that is the problem.

For example, DS hates rain. He didn't want to go into school this morning because it was raining. I promised to put a note in his book to ask if he could stay in at break but warned that 'staffing' levels usually meant he can't. I said he needed to tell someone if he was worried. He said he couldn't. So I put a note in his book to ask staff to ASK him. Of course, the response, 'we'll see how he goes and if he looks stressed/asks to stay in'. I repeat, no you have to ask him, he won't ask you.

Of course, if they ask him, he'll say he doesn't want to go out and then they'll have a problem to accomodate. If they don't, he'll get stressed but won't make a fuss and so 'they'll be no problem'. However, he might not believe me next time I offer to help and encourage him to go to school.

This all comes doen to understanding ASD and being prepared to meet needs. If you don't understand it and the child doesn't make a fuss, there are no needs, no need for SA/SA+/statementing - end of.

That is the core of the problem. Thank you and good night!!

imahappy I don't feel that all these people are idiots, but I do feel a bit of a david against the goliath of ignorance.

The best people I have come across have very good intentions but still don't seem to have a clue. Not their fault. Their training has been inappropriate, the LA has lied to them, they just haven't been supported enough to challenge, they are told the party line and absolutely pandered to when they show signs of towing it, praised for their professionalism and promoted, - and these are the BEST people.

So I see where Claw is coming from, and silver but I see too, a system where good people are simply suriviving, with their good intentions, making huge waves for small reward, but largely just stiffled and knocked back into a system that is failing our children.

I agree up to a point, Star, but I don't think that is the whole story.

I wish that it was "just" that people were well-intentioned bu t badly trained - then we would have some hope that the right training would improve things.

sadly, as you know all too well, it is more a case of ignoring interventions that do work because they are too expensive/too time consuming/allegiedly incompatible with currnt interventions (which is the biggest pile of hogwash ever)

I have lost count of the number of peoe who have told me ABA will not work. Seriously looked me in the eye and tld me not to get my hopes up - that they are doing the best for dd1, and that I would be throwign money away to pursueABA.

I am certain they did not tell me that out of a belief that what they were doing was better - after all, I was only there talking ot them because dd1 was failing badly - lost in a system that cannot be bothered (on the whole) to actually keep up with current best practise, current research, and ultimately is more interested in ticking boxes on forms that say "job done, milestone met" whether that is the case or not.

A system that is not interested, as debs pointed out, in actually solving issues - the whole "don't ask" outlook is so damaging, but happens again and again. debs is not the onlyoneto mention a child who cannot complain or make a fuss in any way, who is then left to get on with it despite it being pointed out that in fact, that child is deeply uncomfortable/upset/traumatised you name it.

I know that people are overworked, and there is not always the time to put everything in place, but honestly, my experience hasbeen that 99% of the time, whateverI say is disregarded as biased, not subjective, unprofessional, ill-advised, fantasy, etc, when in actual fact, time has usually borne out exactly what I was sayign in the first place, with the added bonus that dd1 has, in the meantime, been distressed for no reason.

sorry for the rant

we all find good and bad in all walks of life. I think what makes it difficult is that in SEN provision the bad can have such an enormous impact.

I have the same problem as debs40 in that my DDs both appear to be fine but are often far from fine underneath the facade. Getting school staff to understand this is a monumental task. I think I've nearly got there with DD1's school but only because I kicked up such a stick high up in the LA. I'm just starting the battle with DD2's school - off to see the head this afternoon to argue why she needs to get specialist autism teachers in for a child who doesn't have meltdowns in school.

I've also had the best Ed Psych you could ever ask for and CAMHS have excelled themselves in supporting both of my girls so it's not all bad.

Anyone who would leave a child sitting in their own shit all day and allow them to starve and not drink all day. Allow them to be physical sick and pull out their eyelashes, sit there and watch them scratch the skin off of their face, then tell outside agencies 'no difficulties' and these supposedly being educated people with experience of SN's are glorified idiots.

Some SENCO's/teachers do get bad press, but for good reason. For some parents it goes beyond lack of training, you dont need to be trained to smell shit.

Now SENCO/teachers are telling anyone who will listen that i am over anxious mother and not to be taken seriously.

They are trying to fuck up, ds's dx and undermining any future care or support that ds will receive.

Glorified idiots is the tame version of what these people are.

Yes silver, absolutely. I think I was more referring to the frontline people who are told by a parent that ABA works, and told by their 'professional' employer that it is barbaric, and so continue ingore parent's request for programme they are funding THEMSELVES because they are ignorant, not because they aren't well intentioned, - although I suppose ignorance isn't miles away from 'stupid',

One of the LA's opposition to ABA is that it is stressful for the family. FFS

However, the frontline people that I have come across do truly, truly believe they can make a difference if only I'd let them, and refuse to talk to me as I should just trust them, - grrrrr

grrr, typed a lengthy ranting (really don't know what's got into me today!) response, but the computer swallowed it (tenuous connection is about all I can manage at the momoent)

The thing is my experience hasbeen morelike claw's - with frontline staff ignoring things that are clearly common sense. ignoring dd1 whe distressed, or hiding behind the "well, she didn't say..." argument, when I have already told them not to try XYZ.

I am still, 4 years later, trying to unpick issues instilled in dd1 when £experienced" people, who thought they knew better than me, insisted on potty training her, without my permission. The result is an unholy mess, I can tell you. whereas "my" way (which just consisted of a lot of that rarely-seen common sense) has resulted in dd1 dry within a month, and controllaby clean. she is, however, still unable to go to the tilet at school (and it s only school she has issues with - she has used the toilet just about everyhwere else!)

the damage that can be done with an "I know best" attitude is off the scale. and as claw says, it is not all about specialist knowledge, not by a long chalk, that is what makes it so depressing. a bit of humanity would go an awfully long way sometimes

"it is not all about specialist knowledge, not by a long chalk, that is what makes it so depressing. a bit of humanity would go an awfully long way sometimes"

Absolutely!!

I guess silver and debs that you have experience that I don't. My ds is 3. I thought the preschool teachers were just not very bright because we have a system where this is encouraged (poor pay, lack of educational attainment) and so I suppose I had some hope for the actually teaching profession.

I am so thankful I started challenging it all so early in that case, and will do what I can no to guard against the nonsense you have had to deal with.

Star absolutely to you too! You've done the right thing. Schools are a numbers game and they do not often have time to think about basic pastoral care.

That is why, sometimes, statements seem like the answer to guaranteed provision but it is a willingness to support and understand which is key.

Ladies - special needs is only one of two topics that I now have visible on Mn. I kept special needs viewable as a. I find your stories inspiring and can learn a lot from your experiences and b. as a teacher, I thought I may sometimes have something of value to contribute.

Claw3 - I know you are going through a lot at the moment but 'most professionals and teachers or at least the ones who i have encountered are glorified idiots with a degree who dont have an ounce of common sense between them, who prey on parents having no idea' has changed my mind.

Off to make mumsnet int 'runsnet' only.

the main problem I came across (and this was across the board, form nursery, through pre-school, and even into a top-notch ASD pre-school) was that people did not "see" dd1 as a person.

They would just say"well, it's so veey difficult to know what she is thinking"

when in fact, if you looked even vaguely closely, it was written all over her face, and obvious from the body language she was using.

they didn't seem to grasp that they culd actually build up a knowledge of dd1. she was jsut grouped under "ASD"

as I said on another thread (I htink!) - if a child was hovering around the classroom doorway, obviously uncertainabuot goingin, I would expect something to be done about helping ot settle that child, whether NT or not.

I had huge issues enterign classrooms when little, and I wasn't expected ot "just get onwith it" in the way dd1 has been, at times.

my experience seems ot have beenthat, for soem reason, dd1's fears/uncertainties/dislikes have been seen as things to "overcome". no-onewould question dd2 not wanting to paint (she doesn't like it), because she is NT, and can say so. but dd1 was made to sit and paly with the paint "because she should enjoy it". yes, I agree, her sensory issues needed work, but her fears and revulsions did not need riding over roughshod.

IT's all about how you tackle soemthing, sometiems.

And then, other times, it's all about whether you tacke it.

There is no way that an NT chld would have been treated as dd1 has been - and that is the important bit. For soem reason, it is ok to leave an uncoprehending, frightened child alone and unhelped. It would never be acceptable to do the same with an NT child.

IT would beinteresting if claw namechanged and tried out a "my young child had an accident at school and was left covered in shit all day. school see no problem with htis" thread, just ot see what the responses would be. and yet, the adults who should know better at her ds' school, think it is ok for some reason.

Popsy, so because you are a teacher it means that all other teachers are caring and component?

Sorry now im calling teachers components

competent