Theories on how non-verbal dc think?

[MannyMoeAndJack]

I was pondering this today. My ds is 100% non-verbal and shows zero likelihood of ever developing speech. It doesn't seem to worry him! Instead, he communicates by taking people to where he wants to go, by using a few basic photo cards (when promted, rarely spontaneously) and via his body language (to include whingeing, stomping about, yelling, etc). He understands some language, for example, those words/sentences that he has heard countless times over the years and which apply directly to the situation at hand. I think he picks up on certain nouns to cue him in.

So...given a child such as my ds, just how does he think because I seem to think using words! Are my ds's thoughts likely to be a series of images, film-reel style?

My ds clearly calculates things 'on the hoof', for example, if he sees an opportunity (e.g. an exposed tap just begging to be turned on), then he will quickly check over his shoulder to see how likely it is that his fun will be interrupted or hindered in some way, then he will make a swift and determined dash towards the desired object.

He also thinks/plans mischief things in a more leisurely manner too. Then, when he thinks I'm napping, he will seize his moment.

Any theories about what is going through his head???

I think that is exactly it lou031205. That's why verbs are more complex. According to Davis, dyslexics have more of a problem with the abstract concept of time. I don't know if that is also the case for autistic children, but I think have read that also.

claig, it's hit and miss whether he understands, 'stop', 'no', etc. Sometimes he will respond as desired but other times he will not!! He is nothing is not inconsistent.

phoenix, I would imagine that Chomsky's theory applies to non-verbal, yet NT, dc who don't use much/any speech. i.e. they have the innate tools to learn speech but for other reasons, they do not speak. What I'd really like to know is (assuming the veracity of the theory of innate Universal Grammar), is my ds's UG present and correct?! Hypothetical but very intriguing!

lou, but in my ds's case, he doesn't even appear to understand verbs which can be used without an object: 'jump', 'run', etc.

At the end of the day, I cannot know 100% how much speech my ds actually understands..all I can go by are his responses over the years to people using speech with him and his overall level of development.

see thats where not sure where ds sits he yes has physical issues with speech but also DVD so might make sound once right but never again.

Then he has receptive delay to so he defintley not on the nt fence

but he doe snot get grammar when he signs he gets it all wrong way round ie car red not red car

MannyMoeAndJack, I don't really know, but I wonder if your son is a visual thinker. If you were to read him a comic book which had pictures of the characters jumping and running, maybe that would enable him to form a mental image of these activities. I think that is how we all really think deep dowm. For instance, the word struggle has no obvious meaning, but over the years we have probably formed many different images of it in our minds, such as struggling to push a boulder up a hill etc. Then when we hear the word we can fuse these images and understand its meaning.

Phoenix4725, that is interesting about getting the grammar the wrong way round. I think with time he may well get that right. Different languages have different grammatical rules. In French you would say "the car red" i.e. "la voiture rouge", but in English, which is based on German, you would say "the red car". The underlying universal grammar should cope for all variants. It's probably just a matter of habitual use that gets you to use the grammar in the correct order for a specific language. The signing may also make the process of thinking about the grammar just a little bit harder, I don't know.

claig- I really think in severe autism or severe learning disabilities the problems are far more complex than models such as that described by Davis or chomsky or just visual thinking. And the very limited evidence out there suggests that those who remain non-verbal are specifically not visual thinkers (especially those who struggle to pick up PECS). The sensory processing difficulties of this group seem enormous, so for example they can't see a door and hear a door and touch a door at the same time. Or Lucy Blacm,am describes something slightly different - how she couldn't see a door until she had touched it. I honestly think for this group the world is experienced in such a different way that it's hard for us to even imagine because it is nothing like our experience.

Manny- we taught ds1 'stop'. Took three of us. I walked with ds1 in front of me and then two helpers walked in front of him. Every time he went to go/run I said stop and my 2 helpers physically stopped him. We waited long enough to count as having 'stopped' then walked on again. We did the same thing for 'walk at my speed'.

No I agree it is very complex. The only reason I mentioned Davis is because he was severely autistic and non-verbal until 17, so I thought his insights would probably be valuable.

thing is, he's just not focussed enough to have stories read to him. He will either push you away or move off. He will sometimes watch the big TV screen at respite or at school but it's not really his thing either because it requires him to sit relatively still, focus at the screen (or book) and pay attention.

It's too much for him all at once!!!

Since he was very young, staff and ourselves have provided running commentaries on the things he is doing: 'x is eating', 'x is playing', 'x is jumping' and so on. I don't tend to do it so much these days though.

He just doesn't seem to care about language, which suggests that he has no idea about its communicative powers.

ds1 can't watch tv either. But I think again that's that need to move through someone to experience it.

Although he can watch YouTube videos so it's not quite that. But he is often looking for specific stills in that, so will stop and start them until he gets to a particular lamp post for example. And he does like familiar things (like the dong from bear in the big blue house).

I've found that he will look at books of photographs (I bought him a book of bridges last week and he loves it). He doesn't do stories although sometimes will tolerate rhyming books being read to him especially if they become familiar.

saintly, yes my ds lives in sensory world. He doesn't have a formal dx to reflect this but it is evident for all who come into contact with him. He is constantly seeking: licking (objects, never people), tapping, jumping on the trampoline, etc.

It seems as though he simply cannot multitask to any degree.

Is this ron davis as well?

A new autism approach I have never heard of :bliss:

Am off to read with interest.

Donna Williams talks a lot about tapping. She said she always tapped because each object had a sound- and that to her is her primary language.

DS1 sniffs people. He sniffs us when we come in and often knows where we have been.

One big leap for him recently is that he has started to point to himself. So I came in from riding - he sniffed me very carefully, I told him I had been horse riding and he immediately pointed to himself, said his version of his name and out the door. Brand new but I have a feeling pointing to yourself represents quite a big developmental something.

yes that is him. I didn't know he had an autism approach. I know that he has a dyslexia approach.

I have a link to a 1hr30m online video interview of him, which contains fascinating insights on his life. I think you would find it very intersting. I am a bit reluctant to post it in case it offends anyone. He does have some strange views about autism and evolution which I disagree with. They do not offend me, as they are just his views, but they may offend others.

Have skimmed, but that Ron David stuff looks interesting (sorry for being a bit hastily dismissive) and similar to Lucy Blackman (she began to develop language etc age 13).

In ds1's case I can see what Ron Davis means. It started with imitation. Changed his world and his realtionship to the outside world. Last summer (age 9) he started to study himself in mirrors. So if he saw himself in a mirror he would stop and touch different parts of his body and pull faces and examine himself (he's always liked mirrors but used to examine objects).

I said this to Donna:

In the last few weeks he has become able to look at photos independently on the computer (this is his first independent activity ever!

She replied:
"yay!

but I suspect he has little ability to imagine or visualise himself and without this he can't reflect or gain confidence in his abilities.

Mirrors can supply this, progressively one can build a map of having externally visualised oneself
and it compensates for inability to imagine or visualise oneself.

if he doesn't have long mirrors around the walls, could be a good developmental idea."

I think this was exactly what he was doing with the mirrors last summer. Since then his language and understanding has come on a lot. I think. It appears to have anyway.

So the Ron Davis stuff does look interesting in that potentiall ds1 seems to be doing something similar.

I'm not sure how the clay model stuff would work with someone severely autistic or with SLD's. But they do seem to recognise it's problematic.

Sorry I said to Donna Williams.

Dare I ask about autism and evolution (I won't be offended but I'm curious). Someone like ds1 won't have kids so he's a bit of an evolutionary dead end!

This from Ron Davis sounds very similar to the sorts of things Donna Williams says. Although she's now apparently high functioning I've always found her to have a very good understanding of severe autism, of different autisms:

"Way before I started working with autism or had any understanding of it, I referred to myself as having come from a void. My sense of the void was not as existing as an individual, but as existing as both nothing and everything at the same time. There was no sense of being an individual, so there was no ?me?. There was no sense of identity. Without a ?me?, there was no basis for memory or knowledge."

Davis believes that dyslexia and autism are gifts, associated with extra high IQs. He looks at the rising incidence of autism worldwide and draws the conclusion that this is a natural process of nature which is creating an evolutionary change for humanity. He believes that through autism, humanity will make a giant leap in intelligence, and this is nature's plan. He even goes so far as to say that one day we will all be autistic due to nature's plan.

I disagree with him on this. I think he has jumped to the wrong conclusions based on the rising incidence of autism.

However, if you disregard that aspect of what he says, near the end of the interview, everything else is very moving and fascinating. He explains the lack of focus and concentration and the constant need for movement as being due to disorientation. He says that dsylexia, ADHD etc. are all similar in this regard, and that the movement is due to the senses creating disorientation and that the fidgeting is to try to re-establish balance etc. His dyslexia methods supposedly correct this disorientation.

I think as with all these things, you have to keep a sceptical hat on, particularly as he is a millionaire due to his dyslexia program. But I think you will find a lot of what he says will be very interesting.

'and that the fidgeting is to try to re-establish balance '

My ds's O.T. once wrote that my ds does the sensory stuff that he does in order to 'self calm' which I guess is pretty similar to trying to establish balance.

saintly, are you covering this subject (how severely affected ds with ASD think) in your current research?

claig, if you dont mind sharing, what is your background? Are you a parent of a dc with ASD? A professional in the field?

no I am just a parent of a non-dyslexic non-autistic child. So I have no background in it. I have only been on mumsnet since December and have learned about autism etc. only through the SEN boards. I am generally very philosophical in nature and therefore like understanding how the mind works. I usually post on the education boards and have been involved in a number of debates about reading, and have been sceptical of some of the phonics claims, just based on my own philosophical understanding of how I think, read and spell. Some of the debates turned heated and I delved into the subject further, which is when I stumbled across Ron Davis and his dyslexia programme. I agree with him that humans think visually before they are even capable of language and what he said about dyslexics problems with unnatural phonics made a lot of sense to me.
The more I learn about autism etc., the more interesting it becomes in terms of trying to understand it. But I have no expertise at all.

Well I disagree with him on the mechanism of evolution lol.

I've had a look at the autism stuff, but it does say to use the method your child has to be able to follow instructions, so that's ds1 out

I'm not really looking at how severely autistic kids think manny because my methodology doesn't really allow that although I may do some pontificating and reviewing (although there's bugger all to review- it's all on HFA). I'm looking at how children with severe autism interact, and what you tend to see is methods which suggest that there's more going on in there than would commonly be expected. There are instances of children doing things that would require some understanding of other minds for example, so whilst it doesn't tell you said child would pass a false belief task it does suggest that the models which suggest that children with severe autism are severe because they have zero understanding of other minds (and that has been suggested- without actually looking at anyone with severe autism) are probably wrong. Or at least there's no evidence in what we're seeing for that.

But really it's about interaction, so looking at how humour is initiated, how the child and adult may together create a 'conversation' (used in lose term) and how different adult responses alter the interaction.

yes it's an interesting subject.

FWIW, schools didn't teach phonics when I was a kid and I'm so glad because I was definitely (and still am) a whole word person when learning to read. To me, the phonics approach seems to be a very lengthy process. Each to their own I guess but not for me. Slightly off topic but do schools in other countries teach phonics too (or is it specifically an English language thing)?

I agree with you about phonics MannyMoeAndJack, but I have found to my cost that it is not something you should say when the phonics fanatics are around. I've looked into it now, and it goes in and out of fashion and is often politically driven. At the moment it is on an upsurge worldwide, and I think it is beginning to be introduced in other countries. They are even trying to teach French as a foreign language using phonics software, which I think will slow down the learning of French dramatically. I am glad I escaped phonics, it would have put me off languages for life.

in terms of theory of mind, my ds must have some concept of others' minds because of how he usually glances over his shoulder to see if anybody is about to hinder his pursuit of mischief. Why else would he bother to check out who is nearby? He is not checking that the cupboard might chase him, nor the ball pit, etc. Or has he learnt that other people are just out to spoil his fun and that they will give reliably give chase ????

if ds ever learns to read for him its going be whole words as he does not understand that words make sounds

when I have learnt foreign languages (which is a reminder of how I must've learnt to read English as a kid) or when I hear a new English word, I always always want to see the word written down. That way, I can see immediately how it is spelt. I don't want or need the word broken down into phonemes/graphemes I just want to know what it looks like in its entirety!!!