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HELP!!!!! IS MY DD BEING ABUSED?

27 replies

Flowertots · 17/01/2010 21:51

Please help with advice I'm SO confused!!!!!

Dd started a special needs school this september after asd diagnosis. Part of her condition involves delayed speech, comprehension and generally bad communication skills.
After staff changes they never bothered telling us about we discovered the new lsa was a young male which i (and all my friends) always thought was a weird career choice for a young lad (about 20 yr old). when we asked if he would be involved in toileting duties we were told about "equal opportunities" which we felt was completely unacceptable. A member of staff also later let slip that the new lsa had not had his crb checks through yet. we insisted in having a meeting with the head and her main class teacher in which we asked for no male member of staff to be involved in any activity with our daughter when she would be in a state of undress i.e. getting changed for swimming, going to the toilet etc.-they agreed this would be done. We were told that the new lsa was not being paid until his checks came back which i thought was a bulls**t way of them getting out of admitting that they had neglected properly safeguarding our children. The law apparently says volunteers do not need to have the checks done in order to work with kids. Staff only admitted this after being caught out lying.

Anyway, long story short- over Xmas dd suddenly and spontaneously said "mummy I don't like cock in my mouth". Well, you can imagine the response that got from me!!!! I've asked her where "cock" is but she can't explain or doesn't understand. she keeps opening her mouth, indicating inside it and saying she doesn't like it.

I've tried to get to the bottom of it and it's been impossible due to communication problems. what's strange is that when we asked dd today about going to the toilet at "big school" she started babbling about the male lsa going for a "wee and a poo". she didn't mention any of the female members of staff going to the toilet.

I'm so confused as to what to do. Has dd innocently mispronounced something else or is there something more sinister going on? WTF do I do about this????!!!!! It's driving me insane!!!

OP posts:
moondog · 17/01/2010 21:54

Hmmm.
I would go into school and first of all ascertain who is with her and when.

CRB checks are generally useless but staff are meant to have one.Ask to see copies of those for everyone who deals with your child.

Go from there.

WetAugust · 17/01/2010 21:57

Rather than posting this on MN you should be contacting the LEA about the failure to comply with CRB checks and if you really do think she said what you thought she said you should report the matter to the Police immediately.

It sounds as though you had concerns fromthe start based on the gender of teh LSA - which is understandable. if you are sure that these are not clouding the issue then you need to report what your DD has told you to the Police.

Macforme · 17/01/2010 22:38

I work in special school and there are several young men who do it for the reason that they really enjoy working with kids and have found their niche, so feel it's a bit of an unfair thing to assume that any male there has an ulterior motive.

However... I'd be in the head's office tomorrow,and speaking to the class teacher.
From a staff point of view I can not imagine how an LSA would be alone with a child long enough to sexually abuse them, and if you have requested that she isn't changed by a male they have to go with that. It's a very serious allegation that could ruin the LSA's career if untrue, however the school WILL have to investigate it thoroughly and if there is is any possibility that it is, a heap of people will become involved very quickly indeed.

There is a lot of toilet talk in most special needs school classes (because we work so hard on helping the children be continent)but no-one would use crude words .

I so so hope that it's just a misunderstanding as the alternative to too horrible to think about

Oh and volunteers are NOT allowed to toilet. Only once their CRB check is through

troublewithtalk · 17/01/2010 22:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

waitingforgodot · 17/01/2010 22:50

No volunteers should be allowed to work with young people/children until the CRB check has been received. This should be in all their policies so not sure why they would say he was a volunteer rather than an employee. Definitely investigate though and ask to see a copy of child protection policy

lisad123wantsherquoteinDM · 17/01/2010 22:51

hard one, especially as she hasnt said "I dont like (LSAs) cock in mouth" could be anyone if this is what is happening. Does she have PECS? Do you have the PECS from genials? I remember there was a huge issue as we used to have the genials on PECS boards but some parents said they shouldnt be.

I would be having serious talks with school and trying to talk/use PECS with DD to get to bottom of it all. A visit to GP might be a good idea too, they could check her out physically.
Not sure about Police as she hasnt named anyone so dont know how much they can do, but would be tempted to call local police station and discuss with their child abuse team. HTH

Littlefish · 17/01/2010 22:56

I agree that you should be reporting your concerns immediately re. what your dd has said, and the CRB checks.

However, I think that your comments about "After staff changes they never bothered telling us about we discovered the new lsa was a young male which i (and all my friends) always thought was a weird career choice for a young lad (about 20 yr old). when we asked if he would be involved in toileting duties we were told about "equal opportunities" which we felt was completely unacceptable." are completely outrageous.

If you had a ds instead of a dd, would you refuse to let him be cared for by a woman?

Why shouldn't a young man be interested in working with children or young people?

lisad123wantsherquoteinDM · 17/01/2010 23:02

I have to also add, some of the best most caring workers I have employed/ worked with has been male. I certainly dont think its weird at all tbh

CardyMow · 17/01/2010 23:24

I am a parent helper at my DS's MS primary school, and I wasn't allowed to be in the classroom past drop off time until my CRB check came through. And even with a CRB check, I do not help with toileting. Even when I was left to supervise reception age children during wet play. Not in my remit, and although, theoretically, the CRB check covers me to help, the school policy is that volunteers/ parent helpers do not do this so that no misunderstandings can arise. I would be if one of my DC's was helped with toileting by a member of the school staff that was not known to me. Or CRB checked. I'm on the fence with the whole male LSA/toileting thing. Every part of my body screams that I can't be discrimnatory about it, but if my DD (who has sn, but attended ms school) was helped by a male lsa for her toileting needs, I would realistically be a bit . For the same reason that I request a female doctor when I'm having a smear. But having said that, it never occurred to me to be about a female lsa helping my DS2 with his toileting. NOW I'm a bit at myself...

CardyMow · 17/01/2010 23:28

Just re-reading OP...has she got SAL problems? It's just occurred to me that DD used to call chocolate 'cock'. and once told me she didn't like grandad's dark cock in her mouth . Turned out it was a bar of Bourneville he'd shared with her !!! (after mucho panicko from me!)

nannynick · 17/01/2010 23:53

As a male care worker I do object to how you are phrasing things Flowertots.

However, as others have already pointed out, the school has a duty of care over everyone at the school and anyone who is not CRB checked is not permitted to be left with any child on their own. Ofsted would not be happy!

we insisted in having a meeting with the head and her main class teacher in which we asked for no male member of staff to be involved in any activity with our daughter when she would be in a state of undress i.e. getting changed for swimming, going to the toilet etc.-they agreed this would be done.

How old is your DD? While it may be possible for the school to arrange that your DD is primarily taken to the toilet by a female member of staff, there may be times when they are not available... so what then? Do the male staff leave your DD to do it herself?

In 1992 this situation came up at a playgroup I was helping at... a girl had needed assistance and asked specifically for me. The playgroup leader objected. So at a staff meeting the women (who made up 90% of the staff) said that if I could not assist a girl, then they would assist a boy! Over 55% of the children attending the group were male. I was the only male helper and I was very part-time. So while such ideas of having one gender of carer only assist a child of the same gender is all well and good, in reality it often doesn't work.
Women Abuse Children too... books have been written on that subject dating back many years now. The cases which come up (such as the Plymouth Nursery case recently) are considered by the professionals in child protection to the be tip of the iceberg. So child protection measures need to apply to ALL staff, regardless of their gender.

The law apparently says volunteers do not need to have the checks done in order to work with kids.
What law is that then? I don't recall seeing that in the Childcare Act 2006. Maybe I missed it, or maybe they are referring to some other Act. If anyone says to you that the law says something, ask for the Act or SI reference - then we can look it up. In my view, and I suspect within Ofsted regulations it will more likely say something along the lines that volunteers can not be left alone with children at any time, until they have had their CRB check.

"mummy I don't like cock in my mouth"

That is however very concerning. However you said yourself that your DD does have "delayed speech, comprehension and generally bad communication skills" thus she may not be repeating things accurately.
That does not mean it gets ignored though. It needs immediate follow up with a senior person at the school - the designated child protection officer ideally given the nature of what has been said.

When asking her about it you need to be careful not to ask leading questions. Do you have boy and girl dolls? Does the school? Maybe those could be used to help her show what she means.

she started babbling about the male lsa going for a "wee and a poo".

Is it normal for the children to see staff going to the loo? Sounds a bit odd. Something to raise with the school.

I'm so confused as to what to do. Has dd innocently mispronounced something else or is there something more sinister going on?

It is so hard to know. Look at the bigger picture perhaps - has anything else changed. The way she responds to individual people, any regression in what she is able to do, any changes in her wanting to go to school.

WTF do I do about this?
I feel you must keep on at the school, in particular the individual who has responsibility for child protection. While investigations are a pain for all involved, your DD has made an allegation... though she hasn't named an individual.

Maybe she is referring to food. Are there certain foods she dislikes? Would school give her something she disliked?

Do you have someone you can talk with... for example your DD's own social worker (if she has one), your local authority Learning Disability Team. Raise it with the school first - telling them the exact phrase your DD said. Then if they don't react to that... contact your local Duty Social Worker. In Hampshire it's via the Children?s Services Area Office. In Surrey it's via the Children?s Services Social Care Team. Your local authority will have their own procedure for this... Google: Child Protection +yourauthority

cory · 18/01/2010 07:52

Another thing I would ask myself is "does my dd actually know the word 'cock' for penis? is this the word she would normally use? or could she be meaning something else?" It's not the normal word for a child to use, is it? OF course, an abuser might have taught it to her specially- but he'd be much safer not doing that.

Phoenix4725 · 18/01/2010 08:00

i used volunteer in a ms school and had to have aenhanced police check so what there saying is rubbish

As for the strange choice for a young man ,
my ds 15wants to go into this line of work , he is very gentle caring and has a lot of understanding due to his brothers sn so does that make him od then

claw3 · 18/01/2010 08:12

What a terrible time for you.

First of all even volunteers have to be CRB checked, whether they are being paid or not. I as a parent am not allowed to go into school to listen to children read, unless i am CRB checked. I think whether he is CRB checked on not is a separate issue (ie its no guarantee)

My ds is often confused in school, he comes home and tells me all sorts of things that dont actually happen ie he is learning to play recorder (he is not), he didnt go on a school trip (he did), all parents had to come into school to watch him do a 'rocket dance' (we didnt). Children were hitting him (they werent). His latest is that his new teacher keeps telling him 'he lives at the school'. Although nothing as sinister as what your dd told you, just saying that school can be a confusing place.

When ds refers to coke, it sounds more like cock.

cory · 18/01/2010 08:54

Yes, I have to say that the school's take on CRB checks would ring alarm bells- about the school. But not necessarily about this young man.

bellissima · 18/01/2010 09:18

I had to have a CRB check just to take part in the 'Footsteps' programme (teaching children to cross road safely) at my DC's school. We were allowed to start helping before the check came through but at no time were we out of sight of the other volunteers.

JJWMummy · 18/01/2010 10:41

Hi FlowerTots

Firstly a CRB is only any good on the day it is printed, and even then it is done in stages so something may have happened during the process that may get missed, so please don't rely to heavily on it. However the school's view is wrong, no two ways about that, they should have it in place before the Isa is left unsupervised with children.

Regards the equal opportunities issue, I have to say that although I completely understand your view, this is a changing society and men are perfectly entitlled to apply for any job they choose, as are women, and as the OP said there are almost certainly just as many women abusing as there are men. I'm sure it would ruffle a few feathers if a woman wanted to become a builder/engineer and was told no due to their gender.

All that said, you MUST report this to the school, I realise it is a very serious allegation to make and the consequences of it may harm this young mans career, but equally you DD needs to be safe in the school environment. I have experience of Child Protection issues and abuse and it needs to be dealt with immediately.

Firstly raise it with the school, should they not take you seriously go to the LEA, failing that you go to the local Child Protection Unit within the Police.

I'm sorry if other posters disagree with my view, but I've experienced abuse 1st hand and the long term consequences of it, it needs dealing with if he has nothing to hide then he will not object to an investigation and will in fact be happy to help to ensure the safety of all the children he is working with.

nannynick · 18/01/2010 11:01

JJW - I agree with you... I wrote earlier: It needs immediate follow up with a senior person at the school - the designated child protection officer ideally given the nature of what has been said.

Flowertots - has DD gone to school today, have you spoken with the head / person responsible for child protection? How did it go?

Peachy · 18/01/2010 11:35

I have a child very similar to yoursdevelopmentally (also ASD)

I would absolutely take this up now but I would also bear in mymind that sometimesds3comesup with echolalic things that he has picked up elsewhere and have no relevance to anything that has actually happened.

WRT to the LASAwhich i think wecan agree you do have worries about,pleaseremember that many young men dowant to work innteaching and that many with SN are malesso it is important to have a mix.

The NSPCC website has a number on that you can callanonymously forgoodadvice.Of course you have tomention it, but pleaseremember that whilst the worst casescenarioo one way is that your dd has been abused, and you have yto act, the worst casescenario the other way is that someone may lose thir job through no fault of their own.
CRB- agree meaningless after day it has been issued,my alst job invovled porcessing CRB'sfora charity so am very aware of that.

Agree as well that use of the wordcock has to be understood before it has meaning.

asdx2 · 18/01/2010 14:18

I think you should speak to OFSTED re the CRB checks too as it would prompt an inspection.
Does dd have a word for male and female genitals? I am assuming cock wouldn't be the word she would generally use. Could she draw "cock" whatever it might be? That might the way you could ascertain whether it is a simple mix up.
You could make it a game you draw something and then she draws something. If you drew a face on a cardboard box and make the mouth like post box you could post the things you draw into the mouth.Draw things she likes and post them in and then draw something she doesn't like and say "no no dd doesn't like (whatever) in mouth" You may be able to prompt her that way.
Really hope all is well.

saintlydamemrsturnip · 18/01/2010 19:20

The teachers have separate toilets. I would be stunned if they didn't.

What is the layout if the toilets like at your dd's school- at my son's school they're not particularly secluded (although there are private cubicles of course) - the washing machines are in the toilets for one thing and I can't really imagine then being places where abuse could easily take place because people are in and out. I think they have special arrangements for nappy changing (2 people??? Not sure)

I think it is lovely that men work in these roles. Ds1 has male TA's, teachers and respite workers. He responds very well to men. Do, as others have said be aware how serious any allegation would be. Have you been into the school during class times and seen how toilet times are run? Most schools have procedures (to protect staff as much as children) and this might put your mind at rest.

My nt kids have said all sorts of odd things when learning
to talk - one type of cereal is still called butt stars fir example which could sound odd.

I would ask about crb check (does he already have one - some of the girls that work for me turn up with about 16 of the things because they have and have had several caring jobs) and child safety policies. They must have them.

vjg13 · 18/01/2010 19:41

My daughter has a male carer to support her at Brownies and it has always been the arrangement that one of the women take her to the loo.

He is also a young lad who works as a TA so I don't see it as a sinister career choice because he is brilliant at what he does.

I hope you get some answers from school and it is not a worst case scenario.

MojoLost · 18/01/2010 19:45

THe OP has every right in not feeling at ease with having a male carer look after her child's higene needs. Sorry but if I had a daughter I would feel the same way.

The explicit way in which your daughter is refering to her mouth and the word cock seems very worrying to me, and I talk to the school immediately

5inthebed · 18/01/2010 19:46

I really hope your DD just mispronounced a word.

Did you speak to anyone at school about your oncerns today Op?

Peachy · 19/01/2010 13:38

She does mojolost as lost as it only relates to personalcarematters- if (and I am sorry if I am wrong but its the impression I got) that emaans she would prefer no malecarers in the place as whole,that's a bit unfair I think- positive male rodels are important, for girls as well as boys, but certainly have read a lot about the role of men in the classroom with boys (having 4 boys I would obv. find that interesting) and I have noticed ds1.ASD but in MS, responds better to male teachers but there are none in ds3'sSNU.

Anyway no matter, OP I hope you got it sorted. Cock is such a strange word for a LO to use I think.