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SN children

Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on special needs.

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Original poster

Surprise of the day.......

50 replies

TotalChaos · 01/05/2009 20:07

apparently DS no longer has a language delay (according to SALT). . He has improved massively over the last 2 years - and I can believe that purely on expressive language he can pass for within normal range...... but conversation and ability for him to describe past events, and even use the correct past tense are all somewhat shaky. Feel like Alice in Wonderland (or should that be Alice with MSBP). Will definitely be getting private SALT to see DS in summer holidays to get an unbiased 2nd opinion......

OP posts:

Original poster

TotalChaos · 01/05/2009 20:09

I'm absolutely kicking myself for not coming prepared to the review, for not writing down samples of convos that go veeeery wrong.

DS hasn't quite been discharged - but will only be seen again if me or school request it.

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5inthebed · 01/05/2009 20:12

Is there another SALT you can ask, or is the current one the only one in your area?

Original poster

TotalChaos · 01/05/2009 20:37

due to the team she's in it would be v awkward to get another one with similar expertise. also I suspect they will all base their decision on the standardised testing. I suppose my worries are based not so much on lack of NHS SALT - but more on feeling his language needs can now be swept under the carpet by anyone who wants to. And I will look like a neurotic headcase for flagging up language issues if they are officially "resolved".

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bullet123 · 01/05/2009 21:42

Oh Totalchaos . I'm sorry the SALT didn't understand.
Did she actually talk to your ds. You know, no picture cards, no set questions, just general chatting? Social communication is a lot different than "where is the cat?" and "what's five plus three". It's responding to other people's comments appropriately, changing style according to who you talk to, understanding what is said, asking for other person's views on something etc etc.

Original poster

TotalChaos · 01/05/2009 21:51

she did a bit of that - apparently she asked DS about what he'd been doing in school that morning - in response DS told her something that happened yesterday(!) - which of course I flagged up to her. I will find out more when I get her report through. Feel like I'm going mad though, tbh even DH is a bit that I'm so stressed and unconvinced. Surely I can't be wrong in thinking there's such a limited and learnt quality to DS's language compared with other, children, even those who are younger? I think his expressive language can appear deceptively good - when he's able to have plenty of time to formulate what he wants to say/ask for - but that there's big gaps in terms of concepts/understanding that show up when he's asked/conversed with....

I think in terms of social communication she was more concerned with him initiating and turn taking etc than on the finer elements of it. again I hope her report clarifies things.

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Greensleeves · 01/05/2009 21:53

arse how demoralising for you

What does his teacher think?

HelensMelons · 01/05/2009 21:53

sounds totally unsatisfactory tc.

Original poster

TotalChaos · 01/05/2009 22:03

thanks ladies. to be fair - SALT said she will see him again if me or school ask her to, just won't schedule any further reviews or anything, so at least we won't have to go down the referral/waiting list route again......

His teacher agrees with SALT. The general teacher/SALT consensus seems to be that he will benefit more from the language work they do as part of curriculum than having any 1-1 in school time...... I think DS is pretty bright and can be very good at blagging, particularly if he has the chance to copy what others are doing.

I've calmed down a bit now - I will carry on working on problem areas, and will make sure his teacher for next year is aware of the history of language delay. I've asked SALT to send me loads of handouts/exercises on various areas of speech. I'm used to doing it by myself with a little input from private SALT - that's how it all started - so as long as his next year teacher understands the background then fingers crossed.......

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bullet123 · 01/05/2009 22:11

Why don't you transcribe one of his conversations, or tape them. It might help in that you can then say "look, this is different to a typical child his age."
I've got a clip of Ds1 done earlier this evening. Technically he's fine, good use of language and it makes sense. But there's something about how he's putting things across. Soon as it's copied over I'll put it on.

bullet123 · 01/05/2009 22:28

First time trying for link so will probably mess it up:
s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm89/bullet046/?action=view&current=picturesinApril2009095.flv

Original poster

TotalChaos · 01/05/2009 22:56

thanks for the clip!" so what were you expecting him to say about Tellytubbies and No. 8?

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bullet123 · 01/05/2009 23:08

Well that sort of thing really. That's typical of how he talks, the listing, the sort of disjointed speech. He's mentioned them just before so I knew I had a chance of getting a good clip of him. I could have asked him something else but wanted a clip of him talking at his best.

tclanger · 01/05/2009 23:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

moondog · 02/05/2009 10:26

'The general teacher/SALT consensus seems to be that he will benefit more from the language work they do as part of curriculum than having any 1-1 in school time'

I have to agree here (although not commenting on your ds in particular as impossible to give an opinion there) I spend my life persuading peopel that SALT intervention is something that musy happen within the context of a normal day, not an added extra to do seperately. I rarely see people like this.

Transcribing a convo. is a good idea. We do this a lot (when time allows) and add snazzy little editing/remarks to point out anomalies/difficulties/issues. Very useful esp. when working with people with higher level lang. disorders.

You could do this then go through it with SALT and teacher, suggesting strategies to address these issues and/or offering your own.

SALT is al imited resource, and I have to tell people over and over that just because they are not being seen this does not mean I don't think thay have lang. difficulties. It has to be a case of prioritisation unfortunately ,as with all NHS resources. If you have the cash, private SALT can help.

bullet123 · 02/05/2009 14:24

I have been having a think (thank you for looking at the clip of Ds2 by the way, it's amazing what can be forgotten, I'd not realised your ds was almost non verbal at the age of 3 years 7 months) and I'm wondering if it might be worth your while paying privately to have either an ADOS test, or a 3di test first then another assessment of your ds. The 3di test might be better as I think it can tell the probability of other things, eg ADHD, SLI etc. Or you could ask to have it done on the NHS, but obviously there'll be a waiting list.
I'm due to do Ds2's next Wednesday, hopefully I'll have an idea then. If anything comes up beyond a speech delay (that's if they tell us then, obviously) you can use his example and comparison with your S to push for a test yourself.

Original poster

TotalChaos · 02/05/2009 20:06

thanks moondog. I don't object at all to the concept of DS being low or no priority for NHS SALT - I would prefer clarity - i.e. that this is as far as it's appropriate for the NHS to take him, rather than an "he's all better now" attitude - as that impacts on school, and to be blunt, runs the risk of making me look like an MSBP nutter.

bullet - he wasn't quite almost non-verbal - but was severely delayed at that age. Other than echolalia, he had 100-150 single words with the very odd phrase. I clearly remember private SALT seeing him at 3.6, and saying "yes he's still severely delayed", and me being gutted - as he had just managed a 3 word sentence (one of those painfully regurgitated and rehearsed mummy brush hair type sentences).

In terms of ASD - both SALT and school have no concerns other than intonation (his intonation isn't quite right, is a bit flat). SALT says that it wouldn't really be appropriate to do a paed referral just on the basis of that as other social communication skills are OK. So I'm inclined to - awful words - wait and see how he progresses in school.

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bullet123 · 02/05/2009 20:19

Ds2 says "mumma", "dayee" (daddy), "yay" "'allo" (but copying it, rather than greeting, it's one of the very few imitations he does), "yaga" (yoghurt) and "meh" (no) and I think that's it now. He has lost "shoes" and "ah-lo" (name of our cat) and whilst he can say "lap -lah" for "splish splash it's quite rare now. We did get one "mumma heh" (mummy's hair) sentence once but nothing since.
If you are ok to wait and see and you feel that your ds's social communication skills are ok then you know best.

Shells · 04/05/2009 22:57

Just saw this TC. Tricky stuff for you. DS's SALT is probably being dropped too as he's considered 'moderate' and not 'severe'. Totally p**s me off.
His language is SO far behind his peers and from what I've read (mostly from links on MN), that if language issues are not totally resolved by 4.5 or 5 then they will continue to need help.
ARrgghghhh.

Original poster

TotalChaos · 05/05/2009 08:01

Sorry you are getting the run around too Shells. Unfortunately only parents and if you are lucky a school give a f*ck about these issues.

I don't think 4.5 or 5 is inevitably a magic age - I have met a lady whose DS with ASD didn't start talking until 5, and whose speech now is OK ( remaining social/friends etc issues due to the ASD though)

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Phoenix4725 · 05/05/2009 08:06

there seems to be such a broad range of salts views across the country

can understand that you rather they say look sorry yes he does have problems but we done a smuch as we can within our budgets

thats what it does come down to at end of the day not the child its the money

Shells · 05/05/2009 08:11

I think your DS is very lucky to have you as a Mum TC as you will be watching and evaluating him as closely as anyone else and hopefully will be able to get intervention again if you see things not progressing as they should.

I can see why you're worried. I think I'm going to do what Bullet suggested and start recording, or at least noting things he says, as of course during the crucial meetings you can never remember enough detailed examples.

Original poster

TotalChaos · 05/05/2009 08:16

it's a weird kind of symmetry isn't it - as it was like this at the start of our journey with language delay - getting fobbed off and having to "prove" our child had problems. Yes, Bullet is absolutely spot on about having to write/record down all the convos that go pearshaped...

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Shells · 05/05/2009 08:26

Yesterday we went to meet DH and I said to DS just before we got there (getting out my mobile phone), 'lets give Daddy a call'. He promptly starting shouting (with comedy hands cupping his mouth) - "Dad,DAD" .
I laughed.

lingle · 05/05/2009 09:48

Hi Total,

A pity you don't live round the corner as this situation definitely calls for a cuppa.

What does your DH think? about DS I mean, not about your feelings.

A transcript as suggested by Bullet would be great.

Does your DS have the class "tilted" intelligence thing going on still? I recall he was a jigsaw fiend at 2 yes?

lingle · 05/05/2009 10:42

Total is he about 5.8 now? Hmm, so about the age that DS1 (now 6.6, resolved receptive language delay) finished reception. DS1 still made "speech" mistakes (Still does really) at that age. He probably still had (has?) a "receptive speech" issue in that some of his peers might be able to understand grownup conversation more than him, but his ability to make logical inferences is terrific so I still consider the issues resolved (he's doing great at school and socially).

Having that severity at 3.6 must have made a big impact on you. DS2 was roughly at that language level (though also only just making linguistic choices) at 3.2 and that had a big impact. But DS1's history was always there so I still think of resolution as achievable, despite what the doom and gloomsters say.

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