Surprise of the day.......

[TotalChaos]

apparently DS no longer has a language delay (according to SALT). . He has improved massively over the last 2 years - and I can believe that purely on expressive language he can pass for within normal range...... but conversation and ability for him to describe past events, and even use the correct past tense are all somewhat shaky. Feel like Alice in Wonderland (or should that be Alice with MSBP). Will definitely be getting private SALT to see DS in summer holidays to get an unbiased 2nd opinion......

TotalChaos, have the school said how he gets on talking with the other children? Or others who either don't know, or can't take account of, his language difficulties? Things to look out for if you've not already pointed them out also might include:

1: A lack of saying how he feels or thinks about something or asking for your views o nsomething.

2: Reverting back to something he understands and can talk about regardless of its relevance to the conversation.

3: An inability to expand on what he's saying, suggesting that his phrases are mostly derived from echolalia.

4: Low levels of initiation (the amount of times Ds1 shouts out "Mrs Mummy Mortimer" I don't think that can apply to him in the strictest sense ) particularly when starting a conversation (Ds1 can not initiate a conversation, but can now initiate his basic needs).

5: Difficulty in placing things in context. Eg he might say "I go down the green slide" to refer to a visit to a playground several days previously."

6: Difficulties or non concept of more abstract topics or questions.

Lingle - I don't think we live that far away, I'm in Liverpool, and come over to Manchester area every month, a meet at some point could be possible....DS is now 5.2. I would say that the tilted intelligence has gone, at 2 he was doing 35 piece jigsaws - and at 5 he can just about do a 48 piece charlie and lola one(!). As language/communication came I think his perception of the world altered...

Bullet - thank you for that useful list, next time I have parent's evening I will write that down and go through it with them! I would say numbers 1 - 4 tend to be fine, that numbers 5 and 6 are the problem areas. Sometimes he overinitiates(!) commenting on the weather to the teachers, or what he's buying to the shop assistant....

part of the difficulty re:school is - for various reasons the children who attend would tend to be of lower than average attainment on entry, so language enrichment is a big priority for the early years anyway...... also combined with underfunded pre-school diagnosis/early intervention means that school are used to picking up the pieces in their own way, and "knowing best" iyswim.

It sounds so frustrating, TC. You're expected to be thrilled that there's been a miraculous improvement when the reality is that you just know that things aren't what they seem to be.

The language issues sound so much like my ds2. Anything that didn't happen in the last couple of hours apparently happened yesterday, even when it was actually several months ago. He does the over-initiating thing too, and once he starts he can't seem to stop...

Even the schools sound similar re the intake and their general level of language skills.

I like the idea of writing down conversations as a reference to difficulties. The video of Bullet's ds has also given me an idea for recording some of ds' language skills.

Some good advice on this thread. Just wanted to add support and virtual hugs

thanks coppertop, was hoping you would see this as I recalled your boys had some similar language issues, it's so frustrating, nail on the head. What sort of work do you do with your DS2?

When I can afford it I'm going to get a phone with video camera too I think to get footage of conversations.

"part of the difficulty re:school is - for various reasons the children who attend would tend to be of lower than average attainment on entry, so language enrichment is a big priority for the early years anyway...... also combined with underfunded pre-school diagnosis/early intervention means that school are used to picking up the pieces in their own way, and "knowing best" iyswim."

So if he was at school in - let's say - Harrogate, or somewhere where many of the peers had a rich language background at home, do you think his language problems would stand out quiet strongly?

yep, I agree. But I've always found that saying - I know friends' kids who are a similar age with much better language tends to make the health pros eyes glaze over a bit, and file me in the "neurotic competitive mum" category.....

hmm, so you've a different background to many of his cohort - tricky.

What the SALT thinks of you is irrelevant. If your ds is significantly behind other children his age in his ability to communicate and to understand then that is what the SALT should be focusing on. It can have a significant effect on overall academic work for a start, which doesn't matter very much at this stage, but will do in a couple of years time.

The SALT has given me a big stack of sheets to go through with ds2 whenever he feels up to it.

Some of them are about teaching concepts like either/or, understanding ordering of instructions (eg using "first" "last" "next")etc.

There's a collection of simple memory games to help him to concentrate on 3-step instructions and general auditory memory.

There are also a group of worksheets with a simple story of a few lines and a picture that goes with it. The first part involves reading the story slowly and then asking simple questions. It's things like "John plays the piano. He likes music. He plays music with his friends." (Better wording than that though). At the end are a set of instructions to follow that go with the picture, eg "Colour the door blue" "Draw a circle above the piano".

Basically it's about encouraging them to listen to the parts of the instructions but is also useful for me as it shows up some of the gaps that I hadn't even noticed. An example was when I though ds2 had got the hang of positional language because he understood on/under/next to, but it was only when he did a worksheet that I realised he had no idea about things like above/below/around.

Ds2 is either too tired or too wired to do much after school (why can I hear Robbie Rotten from Lazytown when I read that sentence back??) so it tends to be done when he's in the right frame of mind for it rather than a regular thing.

thanks coppertop, that sounds useful. DS I think has got all sorts of gaps too. So he can do the "higher level" stuff - what happens next/story telling with pictures - but am sure there's all sorts of concepts that need work on.

One of the women at the book group I go to is a SALT so I asked her tonight if she could suggest anything. She said that the school should be working with the conversational and pragmatic use of language on an every day basis, incorporating help into each day and not relying on a SALT visit alone. Also - and this seemed very important - they should be observing your ds in all aspects. How he is in the playground, how he is in a group setting, how he is on a one to one basis. They should not be looking just at how he does in the structured assessments.

thanks v. much for thinking of me last night. I think school do incorporate language work in with all the kids - certainly both private and NHS salt have been v. impressed with the teachers. NHS salt did look at S interacting in the classroom - will see what report says for more info on what exactly she did observe. I agree that the structured assessments are taking on too much importance.

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Are you ok?

yes was just bumping.......

Ok .
I was thinking earlier one of the things that makes teaching Ds1 language and understanding difficult is that he doesn't ask what things mean, why things are as they are. He doesn't talk about how he feels about something or question why something is happening. So whereas a typically developing nearly six year old would say something like "X isn't my friend anymore" or "why did so and so die?" or "when I grow up I'm going to fly to Mars", Ds1 won't. His language is very much concrete, in the here and now a lot of the time. He struggles a great deal with conversations, especially if he is asked to talk about something unfamiliar. He has a strong tendency to divert to what he understands. He'll also talk about things out of context, he came home the other day saying "Number one say on your marks and number two say get set and number three say go" and when I asked about it in his book it turned out he was referring to something that happened last week.
His language can vary between sounding ok but very delayed to sounding very atypical dependant on what he understands and is talking about.

I feel the same about the concreteness with DS - DS does talk about his feelings, and would say about X not being his friend, but wouldn't have a concept of the future/being grown up himself, I feel that conceptually he is rather behind, even if he did test right about bottom of normal range when he was assessed in September.

Thanks for bumping totalchaos.

I've read it all now, and typically of me, I have nothing to add, 'cept to say that you always know where I am if you fancy a chat about all this stuff.

Thanks for the call earlier too x

Just t let you know, I managed to order both those books from the library today, so will let you know what I think when I've read them.

Ds1 will be pleased to see your ds again in a couple of weeks. Would be Tuesday be ok? He will probably talk mostly about Big and Small from Cbeebies and a running commentary on what everyone is doing. Plus repeating back lots of what he can hear, intonation and all .

tuesday is great, I will try and find big and small on iplayer for DS so they can have a common topic of conversation

Total,

Again, just to give you a comparison with DS1 who had basically outgrown a moderate (?) receptive language delay by 5.2 - sufficiently at least to be able to access the curriculum.

At around 5.2, yes, he just started with the idea of being a grownup. In particular, I recall that he asked at around that age if he "would marry DS2."

Certainly, he got many concepts a lot later than others kids, although of course many kids gabble on about stuff long long before they understand it.

As you know, he is all systems go now.

Suspect that in the USA your lad would still be classified as having a delay.

yes, you see I don't think my DS is quite all systems go yet - talking fluently in sentences and able to structure a story from pictures easily enough. spose I feel that although he doesn't meet the criteria for a language disorder, the way he acquires language is disordered - which means that he's got the "higher level" language skills around sequencing without having all the lower level ones!

Yes I see. Private SALT it is then?