"babbling" in makaton ?

[misscutandstick]

My second post this morning is going to be slightly more positive!

Im really proud of DS5 he started signing the odd word at the end of june after almost a year of seeing sign, and now we have very occasional 2word sentences like "train + gone" and "car + broken". But very recently hes started 'babbling' in sign, much like a baby would with words.

He kinda waves his hands and fingers a bit and then sticks in a real word. He also just chucks all the signs together that he knows - not in any real conversation/communication sense, more of a quick runthrough of what he knows.

Is this a step forward? im hoping so.

a wee girl i know did this, if she didnt know the sign she would just make something up, i must admit it was quite amusing at times, she's very good now though!

That is a huge and very important step, yes!!
(I'm a speech and lang. therapist in this field)

Encourage him with lots of smiles and kisses and 'Well done!'

thanks moondog, hope you'd pass by and give hopeful news and thumbs up .

hes still completely non-verbal, but hes willing to sign names of things.

i was wondering, if you are still around or if anyone else might know...

He still doesnt wave byebye and WONT sign things like drink or food either... im wondering if its because he doesnt WANT to for whatever reason, we do lots of 'more', 'again' and 'drink' but he only signs things like 'car', 'train', 'boat' and 'plane' things little boys are into i suppose!

do you reckon that hes simpply not interested in food and drink, but will only sign items of interest? it cant be because of lack of understanding can it??? because if so perhaps he wouldnt manage the signs that he does do IYSWIM ???

(incidentally he loves to watch me sign animals, but he doesnt do those yet either)

Does he sign to request a car or truck or is it just to point them out.

I was just wondering if it is communicating his needs he is struggling with rather than choosing only to sign certain objects.

Its just that ds2 found it very to ask for things but would point things out IYKWIM

He sounds like he is making good progress,clever boy!

no, he never actively asks for anything. But will sign to a picture in a book or a toy on the floor, or even quite randomly!

but i suppose even if its a 'random' sign, at least he must be thinking about the item or he wouldnt sign it.

Had a bit of a discussion about DS5's randomness and there is one double-sign he uses that kinda goes 'car + 'slide/plane' but we think it refers to an action rather than an item, "to go", as in to bed or out of playgroup, or home from shops! I guess it could be considered a request???

(Incidentally hes 2.8y has autistic traits and is non-verbal.)

Yes that was the same with ds2 & never actually signed to request anything, once his speech developed it followed in the same pattern & even though he had the vocabulary to say the words he never knew how to ask for anything.

It is fantastic that he has picked up teh signs

Interesting as at early level there are broadly tow categories, namely requesting and commenting.
For example, a child might say or sign 'plane' and it might mean 'OOh, look, there's a plane! How interesting!' (comment) or 'I want that plane there right now (request).

Generally requests come a bit earlier than comments but in a child with disordered communication,it can be a bit topsy turvy. Obviously we want them to do both.

Miss, can you engineer a situation in which you tempt/entice him to request something? For exampl,e play with something really interesting near him? As soon as he shows mild interest of any sort, model his little hands to make the relevant sign (or get someone else to do it while you carry on tempting him and overracting madly)then give it to him immediately, praising like mad.

Sometimes we unintentionally tend to quickly to our children's needs which reduces the need for independent communication attempts.
PECS people call it 'waitress service' which is a great way of putting it.

Write it on a big sign and put it on the wall tyo remind yourself not to. Obviously you do not want to withold food or drink or basic things unless he asks (esp. if he doesn't for these) but you can engineer loads of situations to get him to request:

-close a favourite dvd in its box and let him struggle with it a bit. As he loses patience, jump in and get him to sign 'open' then do instantly, praising madly

-'forget' to put a spoon/fork with his food

'accidentally' pull the plug on a favourite CD/DVD

-'accidentally' close the door on him as you leave the room

-'accidentally' put a favourite toy out of the way

-'accidentally' forget ot do up his shoelaces

-'forget' to push him on the swing

Get him to think and problem solve and be in a position where he has to ask for something specific or the condcept 'open' 'close' 'up' 'down' 'more' 'finish'

thanks for the sterling advice, as always, moondog [thanks icon].

just a quick footnote:

Really REALLY PMM! DS5 was watching me have a drink (he was sat on my lap) and i was signing and drinking and he was (as usual) just watching with half interest... then he signed 'drink' too!!! its the first time hes used this kind of sign (its usually just nouns like car, train, boat). I made a huuuuuugggggge fuss and got all excitable, (kinda felt that way anyway) and offered him lots of drink and was signing like mad. Unfortunately I was drinking coke which he doesnt like, so it wasnt much of a reward ... he wasnt thirsty incidentally, i think he just wanted to try mine, but im really hopeful requests (for a drink at least) might not be long in arriving. sorry for ramble thanks for reading. X

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful!!!
Keep it up!
(And next time, make sure you have a stash of his favourite things to reinforce him with when he signs for them, even if you just think he is 'commenting'.

Or, go with the theme
eg 'Yes, drinking! Oh look, he's teddy. Shall we give him a drink? What a thirsty boy he is! That's a big drink! Can you give Mummy a drink too? Aaah! That's better,it's gone down, down, down, into my tummy!'

Get my drift?

thanks for a very quick reply!

yup, enthusiasm and reinforce the point, got it thanks again! XX

Im sure the others are just comments as he usually signs from picture books (usborne have a lovely range of sturdy basic picture books - totally O/T but he can picture match within the book ) rather than items he can/cant reach. but this is the first time its been in connection with something 'real' (hes signed 'tree' when he saw a picture frame made of trees). If hes thirsty he will bring me the milk jug (where i sign 'drink' and ask if he wants a drink all the way to the kitchen until he has the cup in his hand - its almost a dance routine!), and if hes hungry he will just raid the fridge. If toys are out of reach he will just ignore them.

PS cant picture match to command, but if you watch him, he touches (with almost a pointy finger, YAY!) each ball on a picture or each dog or whatever item hes interested at the time.

That's good too! Yes, sounds like object/picture matching on the cusp.

Don't let him raid the fridge, or do but put favourite snacks in a childproof container, then he has to bring them to you and ask for help. You can encourage him to sign 'help' and then say, 'biscuits' answering 'Ah, you want help with the biscuits and then before you know it he may be putting signs together.

Make him work (in the nicest possible way0 for everything.Create an atmosphere in which eye contact and purposeful communication are expected and rewarded with lavish praise and attention as well as whatever it is he wants.

thanks for your advice Moondog

hes very willing to bring me a box or bag to open if he wants whats inside, and if he wants a drink he will bring the juice/milk bottle.

I was just wondering, as hes 2.8y and doesnt have any speech (well apart from 'go' and 'again'), but he does sign the odd item that he knows well. And he does have a willingness to want to know what sign is for what item (he taps an item, then looks at me and waits for me to perform a sign) - is this technically classed as 'severe' or 'moderate', not that it will change anything at all, but on a grand scale of things i just wanted to know where he stood. thanks.

Miss, this is all good.
The terms mild/moderate/severe/profound were traditionally based on IQ test results, which are not always carried out now.
They are also used very fluidly.

I would encourage you to think about him as an individual with individual needs, rather than fitting into some arbitrary description.

If I was your SALT I would be really heartened by all these things he is doing,thanks to your hard work. Keep it up.
Have you thought of using PECS as well?

STOP THE PRESS

DS5 brought me the bottle of juice, i took it and put it aside and asked if he wanted a 'juice' (with sign), i waited for a few seconds... and he signed back 'drink', whoops of delight from me, smile from him and exchange of juice of course!!!

It will probably dissapear for a few days, as it usually does, but again it brings a ray of hope!

*

thanks for reply moondog, yes we tried with PECS, our SALT brought an assistant round for a couple of sessions and started PECs with him - but the pic was more than a reward, and he liked that more than the bubbles or trains - hes extremely visually stimulated, and so the removal of the pic was too upsetting and he just got more and more distressed. We also tried just having the PECs cards to hand to 'show' us and not actually have to pass them over, but he hoarded them and got quite precious with them, and got very upset if we even tried to point to them. So it was decided to concentrate more on signing for communication because he actively waits for a sign for words/objects, even if he doesnt actually use them, and seems to be much happier with that instead.

The SALT is really trying VERY hard just to get him to make a verbal noise of any description, and sometimes the games she plays are too structured, and as he has very little understanding, gets very distressed when hes trying to play the game and she doesnt co-operate as he expects (ie a simple posting game, but she would only let him post the things that she named, but he only knows about 10-15 objects by name, so he had no idea what she was talking about), shes lovely, and he likes her, i just feel that sometimes she is a little heavy-handed with him, and expects more than hes capable of (considering mentally hes probably about that of a 12mth old - would YOU have tried to play the same game with a 12mth old?).

I am a little confused, i was hoping that you could explain to me, I understand that as a speech therapist she is trying to get some speech out of him, she has already stated that he very probably has verbal/oral dyspraxia, as well as very many ASD traits (learning difficulties too). Is the main aim of a salt to get speech? or perhaps we should be aiming for a mid-way ground at this point, or am i being a little naiive and over protective towards my DS?

OMG OMG OMG S T O P T H E P R S S

DS5 just brought me a book, as usual, he loves them. They are the Usborne 'Look & Say' variety, great books! good quality, bright simple pictures. anyway i digress...

so he brought me the book and sat on my lap and pointed at a couple of items, which i duly signed for him. THEN... he hesitated, so i pointed to a pic, and HE SIGNED correctly 'cake', so i tried another (one i knew he knew well), and HE SIGNED AGAIN 'drink', so i pushed my luck and pointed, and he signed correctly 'ball', by this point im clapping and getting very excited and telling him how clever and wonderful he is! he beamed at me, then he got bored and wondered off.

Its the first time hes named/signed on request. Im delighted!!!!!

***

Miss, that is BLOODY FANTASTIC!!!!!!

Keep at it, squeeze as much pointing/signing out of him as you can.

What you say about the PECS is extremely interesting, the idea of the pictures being more reinforcing than the objects themselves. Hmmm. That would suggest to me that he will respond very well to visual startegies of other sorts (eg daily timetable/calendar)

A SALT's job is to get someone to communicate, which is not always speaking, althoguh of course obviously we want someone to speak if they can.The key issue is to get someone (who is not yet speaking) communication as quickly and effectively as possible, thereby reducing frustration and possible challenging behaviour.

You are very observant it has to be said and you are raising some really good points.Re the posting, I see both sides.She has to try and push him on from where he is. If he gets stressed about this you need to think about prompting him through the process as smoothly and quickly as possible (eg hand over hand) and also reinforcing him hugely when he does it.

If he doesn't know what she is asking him to post, you could drop it back a step by incorporating matching.

So, if she is asking him to post 'butterfly' which he might not know, show him an identical pictures of a butterfly as you ask him to post. He then just has to match, but is hearing the label/seeing the sign for it at the same time, which will hopefully sink in.

Never underestimate your own ability to move him on.Lots of hard work at this stage will pay dividend,s I promise you.

Gosh as insightful as ever! many thanks for getting back to me.

Will chat to the SALT about my concerns over lack of understanding and the games she plays, and try and be the intermediary.

Never really thought of the pics as reinforcers, hes really not keen on stickers (perhaps hes just too young) but loves handsized bright pics of whatever - will keep that in mind, if ever we need to use that piece of info.

many thanks again, you're a star!

Gosh as insightful as ever! many thanks for getting back to me.

Will chat to the SALT about my concerns over lack of understanding and the games she plays, and try and be the intermediary.

Never really thought of the pics as reinforcers, hes really not keen on stickers (perhaps hes just too young) but loves handsized bright pics of whatever - will keep that in mind, if ever we need to use that piece of info.

many thanks again, you're a star!

well, a quick update (moondog would really appreciate a look in!) DS5 went on in an explosion of all his signs for a couple of days including the 'drink' request.

Now a week later, he still will sign names of things he knows - but seems to use the 'car' and 'fish' sign for practically everything, its like a one-word fits all. BUT he is signing a whole lot more than he used to.

Is this a good thing? Im thinking one of 2 things - its a step back and hes forgotten signs. OR He wants to say more, but doesnt have the signs for it. What do you think?

Hi Miss.
You're doing great.
Yes, possibly he is using signs to mean a variety of things which mirrors normal language development (eg when for kids every man is 'dad' or everything with four legs a 'dog')

Model the correct sign to him (so if pointing at a cow but signing 'fish' say 'Look, cow.' Get him to make the same, modelling hands if necessary, then praise effusively.

Later manybe paly elaborate game of not pretending?
'Fish? Fish? There is no fish. Oh! You want the cow!!!!' (with signs of course)

Thanks again Moondog i really do appreciate your time. [grateful icon]

so its very probably a good sign then excellent! [proud mummy grin] I must say he is extremely amenable to having his hands modelled for signing if hes struggling (he does display symptoms of dyspraxia), so that shouldnt be a problem. Just need to keep up with his increasing need for new 'words' then!!! YAY! Thanks again.

A pleasure.

Your hard work is and will pay dividends.

Do lots of fine motor work with him too to strengthen hands.
The catalogue Taskmaster is a treasure trove of fab (and cheapish) resources for this and other stuff.
Ring them and ask them to send you a copy.

Just wanted to have a large proud mummy moment (the moment - not the mummy! ).

DS5 is going from strength to strength he has a good repertoire of signs which he will use in correct context. Again he still wont sign to command and will only sign if hes happy, relaxed and content - NOT under duress, he regurgitates oodles in a morning when hes just woken and is happy to be getting up. Animals: cow, sheep, cat, dog, rabbit, octopuss, crab, bird, fish, dolphin, transport: car, boat, aeroplane, Other: drink, teddy, chair, go. He knows about 10 others but doesnt sign them yet.

Had to invest in some makaton vocab books, but its been worth it and imagine it will for some time.

OOOh and as a last boast, he brought me a book to sign to the other day (as usual) and i had already read a fair few and was getting a bit bored of playing puppet for that morning... he noticed that i wasnt looking at the book and took hold of my face gently and directed my gaze to the book

Fantastic Miss!!
You should be very proud of your boy and yourself.This is down to your hard work.
Brilliant!!!!