Too nervous of eldest child with Aspergers to praise younger children when they've really worked hard at something

[Wills]

Not sure anyone's up but am really having difficulty sleeping......
Today my middle (non aspergic) daughter (she's turned 5 in August) started at a new school (year 1) because its closer to my oldest daughter?s school (the one with Aspergers) and will hopefully reduce the pressures on me etc. She was incredibly brave about the whole thing and whilst being nervous remained resolutely determined to see the good side of things until the last moment when she finally had to walk into her new class room. At which point I gave her a big cuddle told her I loved her and pushed her in hoping it was the best thing to do. I was incredibly proud of her yet didn?t say a thing to her at all or make any kind of fuss of her lest her sister realize and explode in either anger or depression that we somehow love the middle child more than her. Yet now at ten to midnight I?m really upset that my 5 year old has to permanently do without praise because her parents can?t bear to antagonize her 8 year old sister.

I'm considering taking them all out for dinner this Friday for a treat (MD's or Pizza express etc) to celebrate how brave she's been but I know this will cause enormous ructions in the older one who will not cope with dd2 having any attention whatsoever. dd1 will genuinely feel that we don't love her and therefore resent/hate her sister for the attention she gets. But at the same time it feels awful to be raising other children to whom I can't lavish love simply because it will upset the oldest one. Any tips on how to handle this one.

Just for information we moved the aspergic eldest one (dd1) to a new school at the beginning of the academic year because they were more set up to handle her aspergers. Whilst she had cried virtually every day when coming home from her previous school and normally seems very happy at this new school who are bending over backwards to accomodate her she is nonetheless determined to punish us for making her change and never says a good word about it to us. (although to anyone else she talks so amiditely that its obvious that she must be happy).

OK so its official either I'm the only one still up worrying OR I'm noddy no mates and blooming boring. I'll go for the first one!

I'm up...ASD son who sleeps late! and gets hungry late at night.

He gets jealous of me spending time with my older son.

I find times to be with my older one, the patient one, by taking him with me to the shops on his own, popping into his bedroom while younger one is involved with a game, if he gets nits! I have to find time to comb him once or twice a day, so that is special time. We even nip out for walk round the block in the evenings sometimes when my husband can be with my younger one.

With a younger child a few moments while one is in the bath and the other is outside the bathroom can be 1 to 1 time. It's really hard isn't it, when you know you just want to smile and laugh and say encouraging things to the patient one who always has to come 2nd.

A day off school because of a bad cold can mean some special time. I just grab chances when they pop up.

HTH

Yes it does, even if its simply because you understand. Feels awful though. Who'd have thought looking for nits would constitute "special" time but I fully understand what you're saying .

Thank you

I agree - take your middle daughter on errands alone if you can leave her big sister with somebody else. She will love it.

I would also take them out to dinner. You could tell DD2 what it is for but don't say anything in front of DD1. DD2 will know that you appreciate her and are proud of her without antagonizing DD1 who would think you are just going out for a treat for your all.

Or alternatively, could you not perhaps find reason to praise all your children at the same time, would DD1 not even stand for that? Sort of 'Well done DD1 for x and DD2 for y and DC3 for z'?

My eldest has AS although this kind of jealous is not an issue for him, thankfully. I am wondering though if you would be better off weathering the storm and giving your DD2 attention so that eventually DD1 gets used to it. It would be very hard to begin with but it might make things easier in the long run. I know that with DS1 if you do things often enough he gets used to them, even if it takes longer than it would with a NT child and I wonder if you could apply that to relationships.

Also, how do you handle bedtimes? DH and I take it turns to put each child to bed so we both get 1 to 1 time with both children and you can have a quiet word with each then.

Unfortunately my dh doesn't normally get home until the youngest 2 are asleep in bed, although at the weekends this definitely happens. I'm tempted by the idea of weathering the storm BUT its whether dd2 could weather it! Most of dd1's attacks are verbal but she will also attack physically (at the moment more than once a week but we're not at the point of once a day). I don't feel happy leaving dd1 alone in the room with dd2 which is a shame as sometimes they can play really really beautifully. But before I digress... dd2 has already got a "nervous disposition" and cries most days at school and suffers terribly from separation anxiety to the point where today I popped outside to put ds's poohy nappy in the bin and she appeared with tears in her eyes cos she thought I'd left her. Its a good idea to praise all three although it frustrates me (like the idea of one child needing new shoes and having to buy all three new shoes so no one feels left out etc). And even then I'm not convinced that dd1 will let the praise to either dd2 or ds pass by.

My dm is of the opinion that I'm being too soft on dd1 (which is rich coming from one who will buy dd1 whatever she asks for to keep her happy and not have a scene - doesn't help etc!). In some ways I understand what she's saying BUT dd1 does have a deep insecurity. She read part of a book the other day where the eldest daughter was sent away for being too argumentitive and she spent the following 3 hours awake crying (i.e. we were up till 1 in the morning trying to reassure her) because she obviously saw similarities in herself and was therefore frightened that we were going to send her away! I do think dd1 is intelligent enough to "play" on being jealous because she gets a reaction but I also feel she really is fundamentally incredibly insecure and unhappy. Oh dear! I have however organised clubs for dd1 to go to that means that I have time with dd2 albeit alongside ds who is 2.5. But although dd1 enjoys these clubs enormously she has already accused me of trying to get rid of her - and in the same breath asked to go to more. She really is a very confused and very confusing soul .

Am going to attmpt sleep again as am up in a few hours for the school run and don't handle lack of sleep. But will definitetly look again tomorrow if anyone wishes to continue contributing...... - acutally want a hopeful face but they don't have one - maybe I should request one.

It is tough when you are walking on egg shells about things. The constant negotiation is wearing isn't it?

I would ignore your DD1 when she says you are trying to get rid of her by sending her to clubs. If she obviously loves it and is happy then let her go and ignore the negativity. It would be the ideal time to lavish some attention on the other two without her getting upset.

It is a shame about bedtimes. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with it really. I hate the routine and the hassle and am usually longing to have some time to myself. But on the other hand it is lovely to have 1 to 1 time with each of them.

My DS2 sounds a bit like your DD2 - he would get a bit upset if I disappeared and he wasn't expecting it. He is 5 and I still can't get him to stay at parties by himself even with people he knows well - it usually takes at least an hour before he will even join in things. I wonder what he would have been like if he didn't have a big brother with AS? Does it make any difference to him? Sadly I don't suppose we will ever know.

I'm back again, I like the phrase 'very confused and confusing soul' because that's exactly how I feel about my second son.

He tells me to go away or that he hates me then in the next breath asks for his favourite food. He clearly assumes this is how to get on with people! He is like this when he is hungry. Once he is full up he is cheerful, says please and thankyou, is chatty, about his subjects, and sociable within the home.

So that's the thought I had during the night, does your oldest daughter have good times of maybe 5 minutes after she has had enough to eat? If she does, might those times be worth waiting for to chat and cuddle or whatever with your DD2?

I'm lucky in that Ds1 (ASD) does not get jealous of his younger brother so does not react when I praise Ds2. I wasn't jealous of my sisters either, so not sure what to advise. My gut instinct would be to say that if your younger daughter has earned the praise then give it her. Yes your elder daughter will get upset and angry, but your 5 year old is too young to understand why. She needs to know that she is seen as just as important as her older sister and at that age visible signs such as praise as what is needed. If you want, you could always praise the older daughter at the same time for something, so it becomes clearer to her she's not being left out either.

Hmm, if you resolutely praised publicly (in front of the older daughter)and that caused storms, then DD2 might start (if it hasn't happened already) to associate receiving praise with trouble brewing..... it's a bit like the teacher praising you in class and your stomach churning because you know there will be "consequences" for you later on the playground......I can remember silently pleading with the teacher to shut up...sometimes an approving look, hand squeeze or warm smile is "safer" praise to receive.

Another idea, could you ask DD2 what she thinks? Is she old enough to discuss this with you and give you a preference? By 5, my older son was starting to be able to talk about the effect of his little brother on family life though things have eased now. Might DD2 find this a release? Might DD2 actually prefer "non-provocative" praise like a hand squeeze?

By the way have you read "Siblings without Rivalry"? It's brilliant on describing the horrors of being forced into roles, even the "good girl" role. It isn't SN-specific so someone else may have a better recommendation but it will be in your library and you might find it helpful to go back to a really basic text like this perhaps? And if nothing else, the 1970s cartoons will make you laugh during those hard-to-sleep night

milou2, amazingly yes. Often if she's in a foul mood we offer her food simply because she doesn't seem to know she's hungry. And yes the moment she starts eating the world often becomes more peaceful.

Bullet123 I've thought of praising her at the same time but she's a very forceful person and she'd take over iyswim?

lingle, I think she's starting to conceive what's happening but at the same time were she not to have an older sister she'd have a very strong personality too. Therefore there are times where despite knowing it will end in tears she baits dd1. dd2 finds dd1 extremely confusing (as do we all) but specifically for her there are times when dd1 actively seeks her out and plays gorgeously out yet in the middle of such playing can suddenly turn and no longer want to play or (unfortunately more commonly) worse attack dd2 verbally or physically. I find it confusing so what on earth a 5 year old makes of it I really wonder. So there are times when thinking that I'm happy with her she'll bait dd1 simply to get her own back and get her into trouble which of course results in dd2 getting told off and so the whole situation turns from a positive for dd2 to a very big negative for her .

Niece - its always such a relief (albeit in a sad way) to hear of others who understand what this family goes through. My dd2 is still coming into bed with us every night etc. She really really struggles with being out of sight of me yet tonight at a friends was desperate to do a sleepover. We've given her the goal of doing a fortnight of not coming into bed with us to see if she manages. I STRONGLY doubt it will be within the next year. - for her sake.
I am looking forward to a full diagnosis (paed has seen, and she's had her first speech and language test, all she needs now is the series of group speech and lang tests but the school are convinced, as is the paed etc) so that we can a) explain to dd1 that she's NOT weird and to dd2 and ds1 that there are some things with dd1 we will allow that we wont allow with them etc etc etc.

i'm sorry, i may get flamed for this but i think that your dd1 has got to get used to the fact that the world doesnt revolve around her and her alone! i do not have much experience of aspergers in children, i know a few adults with it, but i would imagine that your dd2 will only become more tearful and withdrawn if she doesnt get some attention and quick. can you not explain to dd1 that you have more than one child and you have to be able to give at least a little attention to the other(s). i know its difficult to explain to children anyway, without the added hassle of the aspergers, but this was what i had to do with ds2 (7) who has dyspraxia and a few other more minor problems. he has two younger sisters aged two and three and i had to make him see that being so young, they need my attention as well.

Oh Cherrymonster, firstly LoVE the name, secondly wouldn't flame - too used to misunderstandings etc and then finally. No I genuinely don't think she gets it! When I started learning about this whole thing the thing that struck an enormous cord with me was the fact that they are self centred. Not in the way you might consider selfish just that they seriously can't understand a perspective away from themselves where they are not at the centre. I used to feel like an incredibly bad parent that I'd managed to raise such an incredibly unfeeling selfish child. Now I'm starting to understand that its just her makeup. Like yesterday..... a great aunt sent the three kids some money. We thought about it, added a little more and bought a Wii fit for everyone to enjoy. dd1 was furious that we'd "frittered away money that should have been saved towards a horse". It does still shock/upset me BUT I'm going to have to a)learn to get on with it and b) teach her to hide these thoughts as society wont think of them as appropriate. By the way her obsession is horses and she wants one and can't understand that a) we can't afford one, b) can't afford its upkeep c) are not going to trapse up and down to stables yard everytime she wants to go and c) they don't come with wings or horns! I have tried the "cold turkey" route but its hell. But again that doesn't mean we don't have to teach her but its going to take time (possibly years given her determination not to see it ) and whilst it causes dd2 pain it will also alienate dd1 from people which also hurts to witness iyswim.

In other words yes she does need to learn this but I suspect its going to take years if done lovingly.

your right, it is something which she has to learn. also, i think you need to learn not to let her see everything. (i dont mean this is a nasty way) but there are some things which no child of that age should be concerned with, like the money going through the household, and why you have a wii but cant afford a horse. its simply none of her business, the finances are up to you as parents. all she really needs to know is that you cant afford a horse, and that if you could she would have one already. i know its difficult getting through to her, it the same with ds2- he just doesnt see what i tell him, but you really do have to persist. also, you said that dd1 has a tendency to become violent if not given her own way? you simply MUST do something about violence, no matter why it is happening, because as she gets older (and bigger) she will start to do real damage. can you restrain her in any way, you know, wrap yourself around her if she becomes violent, hopefully this will send the message that she simply cannot be allowed to be violent towards anyone! im sorry if i have got this wrong and not helping, but i am trying to understand why a parent of any child (disabled or not) would allow their child to behave in this manner

Cherrymonster - I wouldn't flame you either. I said something similar in an earlier to Wills about giving DD2 some attention and putting up with DD1's insecurities. I do that with my DS over other things as he thankfully doesn't seem to get overly jealous of DS2.

I personally worry that I let DS get away with too much and that I blame his bad behaviour on his AS/dyspraxia when in fact it is just the behaviour of a normal 8 yr old (according to friends with NT children who do the same). The benefit of carrying on as normal is that you don't make a problem out of something which really isn't one because it is a normal developmental stage.

At the same time this is not a quick and easy way of dealing with things and can takes weeks or months and loads of patience which I am rubbish at. They can be taught to be less self-centred and there are adults on MN which AS who would vouch for that. They have had to consciously learn all their social skills but it is hard work and never trully automatic.

mmm i'm wondering if it is the age she is at.
I have a big gap between mine but seem to remember ds (11 with aspergers) being briefly quite jealous of his little sister at about 8. (she would have been about 3). I can remember him saying 'you love her more than me' or you are nicer to her than you are to me'. I generally ignored him and carried on what ever i was doing...or i threw it back at him 'well maybe it seems like that ... sometimes i think you are nicer to her than you are to me and your dad too'. I think it helped not to go along with whatever he said and not to sympathise.It wasn't given credence.Do you think it could be a phase? something to do with being 8 years old and thinking she can use it as a weapon? Whatever it was with my boy, it passed ...my too couldn't be closer now really .. and suddenly they became in cahoots with each other against dh and i!
Also agree with doing a few things separately with each child if possible now and again (tends to be a weekend thing for us if we manage it)

niecie- i agree about how they can be taught to be less self centred.
Wills- my cousins dp is 19 and has aspergers- hence my experience with aspergers adults rather than kids. he had to learn how to behave acceptably, he is a lovely young man now and he and my cousin do really well together, they have a little boy of about 8 months old. i spoke to him about it last night and he told me that persistence is the best way to go about it, but that you have to be consistent with it. he also has quite severe OCD, and this comes out in his constant cleaning. he did say that his parents had an absolute nightmare trying to teach him appropriate behaviour towards other but they got there in the end. hope this helps, good luck xxx

I have an approach of trying to ensure successful social times. The aim is for my younger, more obviously asd son, to experience times of aggression and nastiness less and less often.

I do that by offering food between meals times and especially after he and my older one have been getting on well for 30 mins to and hour.

I also make sure I don't get hungry and grumpy and impatient as a parent by making sure I get things to eat between meals too. It's clearly genetic!

Knowing how to get out of a bad cycle gives me so much more confidence.

This evening he was verbally aggressive while playing Call of Duty 4 next to me. Then he ate his honey loops and within a few minutes he was actually chatting to me about different aspects of the game, sharing info and showing surprise at new details he was discovering. Yay! He became friendly and connecting again It really is so simple.

We're SO bad at working out what's wrong with us and saying it to other people. We just end up totally 'out of spoons' and either withdraw completely or some of us do go wild in a toddler-tantrum until they learn to behave differently. And if we're doing something obsessional at the time, we totally forget to take care of our own needs, which makes it worse.

Definitely a good idea to check all the basics. And it's good for us to learn that we can't be selfish and we really really do have to learn to share and take turns and let others get praised. Those are vital life-skills, but they can be exhausting to teach to a child whose whole world is 'in their own brain'. Social stories might well help, explaining why it helps everyone if each person in the family gets praised for the right things.

I'm completely unqualified to say this but suspect it's actually a good sign that the younger child sometimes gives as good as she gets, don't you think? It would be more worrying (albeit perhaps less stressful right now!) if she bottled it all up. Seems like you're doing a lot right already.

I haven't been on mumsnet for nearly a year - twas getting obsessional!
DS (10 AS) has to have any differences between him and his younger sister explained as 'a rule'(social stories in a big-bad-wolf disguise!). "You can't have new shoes today. Your feet have to grow too big for your shoes, then you get new shoes."
We've gone a long way by narrating everything we do, with loads of praise thrown in. It sounded really false to me to start with; but they responded well to it.
And of course there's only one person in her world!
I love this phrase at the moment "When you know one Aspie, you know one Aspie."

Catok - I'm beginning to appreciate that phrase. Lingle - spot on, part of dh and I actually like the fact that somewhere deep down dd2 is actually rebelling. So OK, sometimes I have to say "NOT NOW" but what the heck she gets loads of stick/shit from dd1 and I can really understand the need to get it out. Its just a shame that often she chooses the moments where dd1 is genuinely trying hard to relate to her. The other day I bought dd2 some ballet shoes as I've enrolled her into ballet/dance lessons (at her insistence). DD1 (who did 5 weeks of ballet about 4 years ago) decided to dress up and show her all her expertise knowledge. DD2 basically in a nutshell, with true 5 year old style, told her where to go. DD1 sobbed for ages. BUT I imagine that sort of behaviour goes on in most families regardless of special needs .

Amber - thankyou. You are brilliant at providing insight. I heard an extract from a speech given by someone with Aspergers who summed it all up by saying "don't protect us from things that we can't be protected from - just stand by". However whilst that's a great statement its difficult to do, especially when it involves others that you love.

Cherry - I do agree with you. You're not wrong, its more that she's harder to teach this to than the 5 year old and the 2.5 year old and other people's opinions don't help - Don't get offended I don't me you. I mean that she comes out with statements that shock others around me. I definitely do have to teach her that these statements/views are wrong but its been proving to be a damn site harder to teach her than it is to teach my 5 year old and my 2.5 year old. You tend to blame yourself and wonder where the hell you went wrong to raise such a completely self centred individual. The fact that the other two are not like that is SUCH a relief. Thinking about my original heading I come back to the fact that it upsets me that to avoid the conflict (because its constant and non stop) I let my second daughter down. I feel that if nothing else I feel very much strengthened not to do that again (sorry if too gushy!). Last night dd1 woke up at 1.00am feeling sick. We eventually established that she'd had a falling out with her friend and didn't understand what she'd done AND she'd banged her head slightly at school and they'd done the most terrible sin and not given her a bump note. Today when the SENCO spoke to her she passionately went on about the fact that she hadn't had a banged head note (because the teacher in charge hadn't thought it warrented it - which given that there was no bump and dd1 couldn't remember/find where she'd done it was probably true!). I find dd1's thoughts a complete mystery and feel quite desparing at very many times but I suspect I'm leaving the point of this thread. Sorry its been a long week with my car breaking down in Sainsburys and dd1 freaking out about absolutely everything. Sorry sorry sorry.

oh blimey! chick i dont blame ya, it sounds like you have had a really rough ride lately. i just hope that you get some help from all the comments on this post, and remember, there is always somewhere here you can chat too if your feeling down. i know what its like to get down and feel there is no one to turn to, but on here there is always someone about, and typing your problems to total strangers is somehow so much easier than talking to someone you know in real. its always easier to explain when typing than talking. good luck with your dd's i really hope you get the breakthrough you deserve (and really need by the sounds of it) xxxxx

Wills, no apologising! The whole point of this bit of the boards is that we can list out all that ails us and people will nod and think 'yup'. Lots of 'yup' to what you write.

We do have a completely different way of thinking. It's not based on feelings, it's based on pure logic, a bit like having your own Human Android in a way (though clearly we're human - I'm just trying to explain it differently!). If we understand the logic, we can do something. But then because we don't have a filing clerk in our brains to file away that amazing new information, we drop it into a big pile of random papers in our brain. And the next time the same sort of thing happens, we can't remember the amazing logic that solved it. So people have to tell us again...and again....and again...until there's so many pieces of paper on the floor with "Do this..." written on them that we can actually find one in the pile.

So, letting sister have something nice once in a while? It needs Rules. There are rules for when things happen. 'If someone has done things X Y or Z, then parent rule says they have a nice thing as a reward'. And each person who is with them has to say to them 'Well done' or 'you were very brave' or whatever it is and not say "I hate you" or "You don't love me" etc.
If the rule is broken, they don't get nice things for them when they do something brave, so it makes sense for everyone to obey the rule. Maybe be clear that if elder daugher can follow the rule for the surprise dinner, she gets something nice as a reward. Doesn't have to be money or gifts - we can feel really rewarded to get a bit of extra time on a favourite hobby etc.

Rules just need specifying really clearly as if you're teaching a robot how to do something. Takes a bit of thinking about, but it can work.

Even now as an adult, I yearn for people to just tell me what the rules are, then I'd know. Otherwise we get completely obsessed with ourselves because everything else is just too confusing and variable.

PS, visiting a restaurant is often as difficult for us as it would be for a fish which is taken out of its tank and put it in a restaurant chair. We have to try to 'hold our breath' long enough to survive the noise, flickering lights, smells, different tastes, social interaction, eye contact, sudden changes of plan...eek! Very difficult to explain this to people. You may need to let her take something very calming, or have an emergency escape plan set up for her if it gets too much for her, even if it's just ten mins outside at half-time?