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I want to "assess" where DS2 is before the SALT assessment tomorrow

243 replies

lingle · 16/11/2008 22:22

A SALT more specialised in receptive language delay (probably from an ASD unit? who knows) will come to assess DS2 (3.2) at nursery tomorrow. I know it will be more negative than how I think about him and that's ok - doing her job, etc.

Is there any accessible information that would help me find out what kind of place on the speech centile charts he would now be on if my "mum" assessment is right? I'll probably be a bit down after the assessment so want to think it through now.

This is how I would see DS2 in a "snapshot" right now, (sorry so long). If you remember my first posts you'll see how much things have changed....and I really do think that depriving him of recorded music has made part of the difference. It's like a drug for him!

receptive speech:
DS2 understands everything I say to him about our daily routine. He understands my 3-word sentences ("give a banana to DS1")in context. He can understand simple instructions from a different room ("DS2 come back to the kitchen and put your plate away please" REPLY "ok"). Have told DS1 he no longer needs to use 1 word at a time (DS1 did this instinctively to help) but can use sentences.

expressive speech:nearly 150 "real" words now (I said 200 on here in July - I was so wrong! I was just coaching him! but now it's qualitatively different). About 20 of them verbs with 20 other more "not quite consistent" verbs coming.

combining spontaneously into 2-word sentences with more fluency and variety every day (DH noticed a difference after being away for a week). These are increasingly natural-sounding eg "whatsthematter DS1" when DS1 burst into tears or "mummy got hurt" when I say "ow!" after being jumped on by DS1.

still uses a single word to represent the word he can't think of eg when tired he will use the word "open" instead of "cut". Many examples of this. Many overgeneralisations still. eg his water words are "water" "bath" "sea" "puddle" but all other bodies of water such as rivers, waterfalls, streams, etc are described as one of these or as "splishsploshsplash". So doesn't have a word for everything in his life yet (we live by a waterfall, stream, pond etc)

names family members spontaneously with ease ("hello daddy!"). Starting to do the same for other children. But if DH says "hello DS2" will still say "hello mummy" in reply (overgeneralising again - he used to just repeat and it was hard for him to learn to say my name instead of his own). Uses own name in sentences.

Echolalia fading - appears when tired or insecure or doesn't understand someone. Rare now with me but still uses assertive tone + repeat language instead of "yes". Starting to say "yes" before the assertive repeat but this is very much learned not natural to him.

Understands the basic "who" "where" and "what" questions. Just starting to understand answers to where questions that involve "school" "work" or other places that he can't see. Progressing fast here. Always answers "what can you see?" appropriately. Nearly there with "eat" "hold" and "wear" but still muddles them when tired.

No "why"or "when" questions yet. Progressing but not there yet with "shoes on first THEN park" and other two-event sequences. Understands "it's time to" but still doesn't always understand the description of where we're going next.

Just starting to get to grips with under/over on/off etc. Good with up/down.

Lastly, the grandma test: my mum says "this child talks just as you would expect a two-year old child to" (ie she found his speech pretty "normal" but a year or so behind other kids his age when we spent a week with her).

Other areas. Doesn't initiate socially with (new)nursery peers yet. Passive and quiet there. But joins in any physical game initiated by others (involving bouncing, falling, giggling, etc) with great skill, great care for others' space and excellent turn-taking. Visited "old" nursery friend and they trotted off together up to the bedroom after 10 minutes' hesitation (it was his first time in that house) and did about 10 minutes cooperatively on the train track.

Initiates socially with family and especially brother all the time.
When alone, "role-plays" conversations with brother (hardly sings now! poor thing! his cruel mother wanted him to talk instead! My psychotherapist neighbour thinks I'm terrible!)

Understands all my tones of voice and facial expressions. Understands when I'm joking, cross, playful, teasing, etc from either of these. Switched on and engaged with me at pretty much all times even if engrossed in trains or listening to music. There is no activity I can't join in. Not in a bubble. Not in "own world"

Not the most imaginative child but happy to play along with "doggy" going to sleep, waking up, etc. Pretends objects are other objects. Now pretends to be a "monsta" by holding out arms and making monster noise. Wants me and others to look scared and scream in response. It doesn't matter if we don't run away so he understands the meaning of the game is more than physical. When DS1 is a "monster", DS2 pretends to be scared and runs to me to pretend he needs protecting from DS1 but also laughing.

Fascinated by numbers, loves looking at the second hand on the clock, identifies speed limit signs and traffic light colours all the time. Since the days got shorter, adores turning the lights on and off. Lights on and off is the obsession. Does it about 50 times a day if nothing else is going on . Also flushes the loo about 20 times a day. Will pester to be allowed to do this at other people's houses.

Apologies and thanks to anyone who got this far....

OP posts:
moondog · 28/11/2008 18:00

With understanding the concept of time, I have found a simple calendar invaluable. I
like this one as the spaces for the days are nice and big
Organised Mum calendar

Here is what to do.

Start at the begining of a month. For about 3 weeks, simply get the child to cross off the relevant day of the month with a big cross from each corner of the box. Do it before bed and tell (sign and speech) them the day is finished.

They should start getting the idea of the page filling up (ie time passing).

You can then start putting in pictures depicting important future events (g parties, swimming, cinema trip,Christmas) What is nifty about this calendar is that it comes with lots of little activity stickers. I also make my own from Widgit Writing with Symbols package or Google Images or digital photos or drawings. Keep it simple to begin with.

Gradually (it may take months, that's k, important thing is to do it every day)the child will realise that the event is coming closer. Also good for left to right skills and counting (eg Our big thing is dh coming home from his work in Bangladesh so there is a picture of a plane about 4 weeks from now and every night we count. Same with Christmas.)

You can then start to ask the child what happened that day when they are crossing off the day at night. Whatever they come up with is fine (eg even just something like 'sandpit') Honour their contribution and draw a little picture (or find a suitable one) to put in the box for that day and then cross it out.Even if the child is not able to communicate something, you can pick out something important from theri day and put in a picture (eg for my kids today, it would be playing and putting make up on hideous Barbie heads at child minders.

You don't have to have a picture for every day . Sometimes a cross may be enough. Equally though, put in the box anything of importance (eg for us it may be a tag from a special treat box of cereal or cinema tickets or a photo of something we made.)

You can then add a simple code to denote school/non school days. Iuse a red sticky dot (buy sheets of them in WHSmith)and put it in top right hand corner of every box which denotes a non school day.

If they start writing, you can transition to that (although even if they do, everyone loves pictures.) Ihave done this every night for 4 years and my children love it. Dd often goes to bed with a stack of calendars and flicks through them, enjoying reflecting on past events (eg holidays, the time she was sick on her sohes, the night a fox ripped open the rubbish bags, the days we went to the cinema.)

I want everyone in the world to do this.

lingle · 28/11/2008 18:35

Wow! It's going to take me all weekend to digest this all. Thanks so much everyone.

We had another parent's evening at school nursery and the lovely teacher has responded to our problems with choices by getting some flashcards. They say they are having success with DS2 in getting him to choose the next activity (painting versus computer, for instance) by showing him two cards. They have given me some laminated cards with different song titles with appropriate pictures to help him select what song he wants to sing.

Now I can't complain that I don't have enough to go on!

OP posts:
TotalChaos · 29/11/2008 19:52

brilliantly helpful post re:time Moondog, will print that out, and might even order one of those Organised mum things!

lingle · 30/11/2008 22:50

Just wanted to respond to everyone's suggestions about the "4 problems" I mentioned with DS2 (3.3)

  1. "Or" choices +echoing. We're following nursery's method and getting some success. Cyber - yes - you are right - I have been giving up and responding to the playful echo - I need to make it harder. I don't think he has any problem with the concept of choice - he's pretty assertive at home and defends his preferences against his brother. He always rejects a silver spoon and asks for his black one instead. I think he spots an artificially created "choice" a mile off so I need to think of "real" choices.
  1. Places. Nursery suggested starting by taking photos of all the rooms in the house and bringing them in with the names of the rooms on the back. I've bought a "photo holder" that holds 40 photos and goes over the door so I can show him a picture of where we're going next. I guess I won't find out if he has a concept of "elsewhere" until he knows the words for all those places when we are there IYSWIM. I think many 3-year-olds use "elsewhere" words in quite a hazy way anyway.
  1. Past. Nursery teacher told me she doesn't really need this for him to access the curriculum until he's in reception in 21 months' time! She told me not to be fooled by the apparent fluency of the other children in talking about the past and said half her kids have no real concept of it yet, including those who are already four. But I've bought the calendar anyway partly because of the stickers. We've got a year to develop a routine with it and if it's unsuitable at present I can use it myself. And I've bought a scooby doo one for my nearly-6 year old because I could see from moondog's post how useful that would be for him. He gets so cross when I lose the bit of paper on which he's been counting down the days to something and is still hazy on days of the week.
  1. Sequences - "First this then that". Nursery have told me they use "First"..."next" and he seems to be responding to that a tiny bit - more than to "then" anyway. He likes sitting on the loo and he likes flushing the toilet so if we could get this one then I could tell him he needs to wee in the loo before he's allowed to flush the toilet and then life might be less nappy-full.

Jimjam and Total. I know nothing about PECS and feel really really inadequate on all visual stuff. I'm such a verbal person. I think he genuinely has over 200+spontaneous words including 20-25 verbs (so this is excluding all proper names, names of songs, characters names, and all the other things like that). But at nursery they use Makaton with all the children as a fellow-pupil has DS and the teacher said she feels it may help him. I wish I had thought about this a year ago when his speech was just emerging but I guess we all go through that loop. And thank you Jimjam for your kind offer. I will try to get my act together with the help of nursery - but may end up begging for help at some point - thank you.

I'm so encouraged by the professionalism of nursery - the manager was completely on top of all these questions - and said that she had learnt all she knew from my NHS SALT so I'm feeling more positively towards her. She visits nursery to assist at least two fellow-pupils so hopefully can continue to provide feedback. DS2 is starting to answer questions at nursery and to say things like "hello" and "thank you" to other children which is heartening.

Thank you again for all the thoughts and help. must get visual....must get visual....must get visual....

OP posts:
moondog · 30/11/2008 22:57

Sounds great Lingle.

Just want to recommend another little cracker of a product from the wonderful wonderful company that is Inclusive Technology (everynoe with interest in this filed should be on their mailing list and attending their free and fabulous information days when you get to see (and try for yourself)thier products.

Talking photo album

Like a regular one but you are able to record a message for each picture.Accessible by pressing a button.

So, kid shows a picture, presses button and one hears 'This is me at the zoo with Aunty Jo'

£20

Can of course be reset.Dead easy to use.

TotalChaos · 30/11/2008 23:10

quick hijack - DS is very shaky on time words - such as today/another day. any suggestions for visuals etc that might help? Today v another day comes up a lot when DS requests things - can we go to soft play now/can we go to x's house now ete?

moondog · 30/11/2008 23:11

Yes!
The calendar I mention
Sorts all that out.

moondog · 30/11/2008 23:13

Hang on, more with you now.
If you have a box with little pics in of 'another day' activities, that might help.Conveys the idea that they exist and will happen but no fixed time for them as yet.
(My kids get fixed on 'later' which of course covers a mutlitude of sins, althoguh today broke it to them that buyung a candy floss from manky salmonella magnet catering caravan in Next carpark was never going to happen. Ever.

lingle · 01/12/2008 09:10

moondog that sounds incredible. The DS's Christmas present are now well and truly sorted (btw there is another thread running about the difficulties of buying Xmas for SN kids and maybe some of these ideas would sit happily on that thread too?).

I'd like to recommend a product from the "inclusive" company Moondog mentions which is a computer game where you make choices by touching the screen in order to create your own nursery rhyme. So you choose "Old King Cole or Humpty Dumpty". It is banned in our house because DS2 got obsessed and quoting in its style is what's blocking his response to choice questions - but obviously only a tiny minority of kids stuggling with speech are going to have that issue.

OP posts:
TotalChaos · 01/12/2008 11:14

thanks very much for the advice and info Moondog.

Lingle - Makaton may also be a good alternative visual way forward - especially if nursery are geared up for it already. Have a chat to SALT about it.

kettlechip · 01/12/2008 13:20

Just caught up on a week's worth of this thread, the laptop had a meltdown (literally, how dramatic!) last week so I'm writing this from a brand new one I can't really type on yet.. how I missed MN for a week, but got a lot of things done around the house though, funny that!
Anyway, back to the topic. A photo album of ds1's favourite people and places, all clearly labelled, has been great for him. I can now set off with him in the car, ask him where we're going, and he'll be able to say "granny's", "playgroup", and name a couple of people he expects to see.
Glad the yes is working so well for you, I think I need to get tougher with ds on that.
Re choices, we have a set of Ikea coloured plastic plates and I always ask ds which colour he'd like, I started by holding two up and naming each colour, now I can just open the cupboard and he picks a colour. It's sorted him for making other choices too.

I'm making a big thing of using our advent calendar as I'm not sure how aware ds is of Xmas and I'd love him to have some understanding of it, however basic. I like Moondog's ideas, and review of the day idea.

lingle · 01/12/2008 17:36

K. clearly our kids have been exchanging notes again...... could your DS1 please have a quiet word with my DS2 about potty training too?

OP posts:
kettlechip · 01/12/2008 19:33

I think we lucked out with potty training, I honestly expected it to be traumatic, and to go on for months and it wasn't and didn't. Once ds "gets the idea" with something, he really gets it, and it was just getting that initial penny to drop, no pun intended.. !

Leave him nappy free even just for an hour or two a day to get him used to it, try putting him in boxers rather than tight pants to start with (I found initially that tight pants felt too nappy-like to ds, and confused him) give loads of praise for any encouraging signs, and stay relaxed about any accidents and it will work. Honestly it will!

lingle · 03/12/2008 12:14

We'll use a loo one day. Just not sure when!

DH has just informed me that DS2's latest assessment is taking place today at nursery. A specialist teacher of some kind. Please god let this be a more positive experience. Let me like her.

I shall do the usual and write down some happy things so I can read them later through my tears.

  1. He is now using "yes" to respond when I call him from another room as well as in response to "do you want" questions. It's lovely.
  2. Instead of squealing for me when he's stuck or his trains etc are stuck, he's saying "Mummy, DS2 needs help!"
  3. We're making great progress with the choices. Acting in concert with nursery seems like a really powerful tool.
  4. Yesterday he turned to his brother at dinner and said "DS1, do you want some potatoes?" Copying me but lovely to see him wanting to be grown up.

No need to reply guys but will update you in due course!

OP posts:
bullet123 · 03/12/2008 12:22

Hope it goes well.
I forgot to say with the time concept, that Ds1 can now get a good idea if I count the days on my fingers.

moondog · 03/12/2008 12:27

Thinking of you Lingle.
I know it's hard and of course you can say anything you like here but remember-your child needs proper practical evidence based support.

Pity, sympathy and tears are not helpful in achieving that.

(This is what I use at low moments. Then I wipe my face, get back out there and continue roaring like a lioness.)

XXXXXXX

jimjamshaslefttheyurt · 03/12/2008 18:48

Agree with moondog as usual Good luck.

We are having real problem with ds1 dealing with routines (routines are dreadful because he knows what comes next and wants to rush through, get incredibly anxious until the routine is finished). It makes going back anywhere very difficult because the second time is a 'routine' and so the experience cannot be enjoyed.

Anyway I've thought up a visual support for that - am going to try and draw it up by the weekend (am horrendously busy at the moment). Once I have I'll add a 'resources' link to my website and put it there free for download. I'll do that with anything I make up for ds1 in case it's any use for anyone else.

I like Moondogs calendar idea as well but think it is too advanced for ds1 (he doesn't like stickers either), but I'm going to try and think of a way to simplify it and put that up there too.

lingle · 03/12/2008 19:57

That is generous of you Jimjam. Would you mind just linking to your site (again)? I bet loads of us including those who don't post ("lurkers" always sounds negative) would really appreciate being able to piggyback no your thinking.

Very interesting re the routines. I can't say anything intelligent but it's nice that his mum understands his anxiety and sympathises.

Thanks everyone for replies re earlier post. Well, I didn't meet specialist teacher in the end. But nice nursery teacher seemed happy. Said that specialist teacher had backed up her own views and also pointed out that he appears to avoid sensory play areas like the water and sand. Strange as he loves beaches and swimming pools (jumps in delightedly although can't swim). But he is fussier than DS1 was about his clothes - am delighted to have coaxed him into gloves this winter.

I've got to the point where I feel that if nice nursery teacher is happy, I'm happy! My job is to give the support she wants to do her job as well as she can. She clearly feels more confident about what she wants to do as a result of the consultation so that's fine.

They were talking about developing friendship groups. He seems to like another little August boy whose parents might also defer. The autumn born girls are mothering him. One, who is the little sister of DS1's best friend, apparently announced at tea yesterday to her mum that she "loves DS2" and she and he had a lovely play on a train today while big brothers talked about grown-up stuff.

Hmm, hard to get my head round. There's a basic English word for this condition and it's "Shy". But I guess if you're sociable at home and with one other child at your own home with your mum present but you freeze in larger groups then that's a genuine problem to overcome so I'm grateful for nursery's help.

Was delighted the other day whilst driving him in the dark. Glanced in the wing mirror and said "take your hat off DS2" and he did. wow - I've never given him that command before so was excited. Am reducing my special simplied words day by day - have started to say "do your shoe up" instead of "shut the shoe".

OP posts:
jimjamshaslefttheyurt · 03/12/2008 21:03

aut2bsafe I'll start a thread when I've managed to produce something that's worth sharing!

kettlechip · 03/12/2008 21:21

That all sounds nice and positive lingle! We had the same observation re sand play, I couldn't fathom it out either. We live 2 miles from the sea so it's not as if he isn't used to beaches..

And I remember saying to ds1, "put your arms back in your straps" when I was driving, and he was in his carseat, and being totally astounded when he did. I do think his understanding fluctuates, for reasons I can't begin to comprehend. Some days he can respond to complex 3 step commands, other days, "pick up your coat" is an effort.

jimjams, looking forward to your new thread!

kettlechip · 03/12/2008 21:29

Just ordered one of those Organised Mum calendars too - going to get going with the stickers idea as ds is currently loving his advent calendar! Thanks Moondog!

moondog · 03/12/2008 22:23

Jimjams, I think you might be surprised at how even kids with complex needs can understand portions being blocked off and 'finished with'.
With what you say about his mastery of PECS, i would definitely give it a whirl.
Giving someone a sense of control and preparation over how they spend their time that extends beyond choices in the here and now is absolutely essential I have found.

My dd took a long time to get this but I knew with a consistent approach that that she would.

As I said, I did nothing more than help her to cross off a day for months and months.

Another useful idea with pictures and photos as follows:

In classroom/home situation, take good clear pictures of everyone. Help yuor child to 'check' everyone in.

'Is Daddy here?' (prompt to pick up relevant picture and put on board that represents 'present'

'Is Susie here? (prompt to pick up and put on board that represents 'absent'.

Talk and sign about why someone is absent (why/because is also an absolutely fundamental concept-needs tonnes and tonnes of attention)

When this idea established,you can introduce emotion pictures. Start with happy/sad/tired/cross. Get adults or children who find this easy to pick uo a card and say 'I'm angry/sad'

Encourage your child to do the same.

Again when concept established, you can work on why someone is tired/happy/angry.

In some places where I work everyone checks in with their picture and correspondinf emotion card.

When I arrive, I can see at a glance

  1. who is present/absent
  1. how they feel

Even a non-verbal child can 'talk' me throguh this info.
It's brill-simple and effective.

moondog · 03/12/2008 22:25

Lingle, I like this comment very much

'My job is to give the support she wants to do her job as well as she can. She clearly feels more confident about what she wants to do as a result of the consultation so that's fine.'

My best parent relationships work like this.

jimjamshaslefttheyurt · 04/12/2008 08:03

I don't think he'll even look at a calendar though MD iyswim. So I don't think it will register. I think I would just be crossing something off without him even noticing. He has the concept of days from his different coloured days at school so I was going to reproduce something calendar like with all the Mondays in yellow, all the Tuesdays in blue etc. Then I will need to think about how to replace stickers (he won't go near a sticker- actively avoids them). Perhaps some sort of symbol to go on each one (depends whether I reuse the same calendar each month- easiest thing to make would be laminated calendar plus box of laminated symbols/photos - to put on each day, then reuse - but not sure whether reusing each month will be confusing. Perhaps 12 laminated different for each month with the same symbol box to go to be reused each moth.

He understands happy sad and poorly (in himself). No idea how much more than that.

jimjamshaslefttheyurt · 04/12/2008 08:41

He does love his RDI style photo diary, but I'm not sure he gets a sense of time from it, and whilst working full time and doing literacy and stuff, getting photos printed everyday is actually a total and utter chore. I think with the above laminated calendar plus symbols or photo icons I could sort of get a mix of the 2 and it would be an awful lot easier for me.