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I want to "assess" where DS2 is before the SALT assessment tomorrow

243 replies

lingle · 16/11/2008 22:22

A SALT more specialised in receptive language delay (probably from an ASD unit? who knows) will come to assess DS2 (3.2) at nursery tomorrow. I know it will be more negative than how I think about him and that's ok - doing her job, etc.

Is there any accessible information that would help me find out what kind of place on the speech centile charts he would now be on if my "mum" assessment is right? I'll probably be a bit down after the assessment so want to think it through now.

This is how I would see DS2 in a "snapshot" right now, (sorry so long). If you remember my first posts you'll see how much things have changed....and I really do think that depriving him of recorded music has made part of the difference. It's like a drug for him!

receptive speech:
DS2 understands everything I say to him about our daily routine. He understands my 3-word sentences ("give a banana to DS1")in context. He can understand simple instructions from a different room ("DS2 come back to the kitchen and put your plate away please" REPLY "ok"). Have told DS1 he no longer needs to use 1 word at a time (DS1 did this instinctively to help) but can use sentences.

expressive speech:nearly 150 "real" words now (I said 200 on here in July - I was so wrong! I was just coaching him! but now it's qualitatively different). About 20 of them verbs with 20 other more "not quite consistent" verbs coming.

combining spontaneously into 2-word sentences with more fluency and variety every day (DH noticed a difference after being away for a week). These are increasingly natural-sounding eg "whatsthematter DS1" when DS1 burst into tears or "mummy got hurt" when I say "ow!" after being jumped on by DS1.

still uses a single word to represent the word he can't think of eg when tired he will use the word "open" instead of "cut". Many examples of this. Many overgeneralisations still. eg his water words are "water" "bath" "sea" "puddle" but all other bodies of water such as rivers, waterfalls, streams, etc are described as one of these or as "splishsploshsplash". So doesn't have a word for everything in his life yet (we live by a waterfall, stream, pond etc)

names family members spontaneously with ease ("hello daddy!"). Starting to do the same for other children. But if DH says "hello DS2" will still say "hello mummy" in reply (overgeneralising again - he used to just repeat and it was hard for him to learn to say my name instead of his own). Uses own name in sentences.

Echolalia fading - appears when tired or insecure or doesn't understand someone. Rare now with me but still uses assertive tone + repeat language instead of "yes". Starting to say "yes" before the assertive repeat but this is very much learned not natural to him.

Understands the basic "who" "where" and "what" questions. Just starting to understand answers to where questions that involve "school" "work" or other places that he can't see. Progressing fast here. Always answers "what can you see?" appropriately. Nearly there with "eat" "hold" and "wear" but still muddles them when tired.

No "why"or "when" questions yet. Progressing but not there yet with "shoes on first THEN park" and other two-event sequences. Understands "it's time to" but still doesn't always understand the description of where we're going next.

Just starting to get to grips with under/over on/off etc. Good with up/down.

Lastly, the grandma test: my mum says "this child talks just as you would expect a two-year old child to" (ie she found his speech pretty "normal" but a year or so behind other kids his age when we spent a week with her).

Other areas. Doesn't initiate socially with (new)nursery peers yet. Passive and quiet there. But joins in any physical game initiated by others (involving bouncing, falling, giggling, etc) with great skill, great care for others' space and excellent turn-taking. Visited "old" nursery friend and they trotted off together up to the bedroom after 10 minutes' hesitation (it was his first time in that house) and did about 10 minutes cooperatively on the train track.

Initiates socially with family and especially brother all the time.
When alone, "role-plays" conversations with brother (hardly sings now! poor thing! his cruel mother wanted him to talk instead! My psychotherapist neighbour thinks I'm terrible!)

Understands all my tones of voice and facial expressions. Understands when I'm joking, cross, playful, teasing, etc from either of these. Switched on and engaged with me at pretty much all times even if engrossed in trains or listening to music. There is no activity I can't join in. Not in a bubble. Not in "own world"

Not the most imaginative child but happy to play along with "doggy" going to sleep, waking up, etc. Pretends objects are other objects. Now pretends to be a "monsta" by holding out arms and making monster noise. Wants me and others to look scared and scream in response. It doesn't matter if we don't run away so he understands the meaning of the game is more than physical. When DS1 is a "monster", DS2 pretends to be scared and runs to me to pretend he needs protecting from DS1 but also laughing.

Fascinated by numbers, loves looking at the second hand on the clock, identifies speed limit signs and traffic light colours all the time. Since the days got shorter, adores turning the lights on and off. Lights on and off is the obsession. Does it about 50 times a day if nothing else is going on . Also flushes the loo about 20 times a day. Will pester to be allowed to do this at other people's houses.

Apologies and thanks to anyone who got this far....

OP posts:
Tclanger · 16/11/2008 22:36

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misscutandstick · 16/11/2008 22:41

sorry if its been mentioned, but i was wondering how old DS2 is?

misscutandstick · 17/11/2008 07:10

incidentally DS4 is having a speech and language assessment today too, let us know how it goes and good luck!

Tclanger · 17/11/2008 08:02

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BriocheDoree · 17/11/2008 08:24

Wow, his speech sounds better than DD and she's 4.5! Sounds like you have a really good list to discuss with SALT.

TotalChaos · 17/11/2008 08:27

as far as I am aware all the speech centile information would tie in to formal language tests a SALT would administer - so I wouldn't think it was possible to do your own calculation. Hopefully you will find that a more experienced SALT is more positive about your child than the first SALT, I know that was my experience. Can't think offhand about any sites that would give a more exact age band for his speech - possibly TClang might know.

Anyway - good look - and your DS really does sound to have made remarkable progress the last few momths, which bodes very well.

TotalChaos · 17/11/2008 08:29

yes good luck Miss Cut too.

Obv. get professional opinion - but a 3 year old is still abit little to expect a good grasp on why/where - would focus on more basic stuff now,like getting sentence length up and prepositions.

lingle · 17/11/2008 09:09

Once again I'm amazed by the generosity of time and spirit on this board. It's a bit like Freecycle (I'm a Freecycle moderator in my "copious spare time"). An analogy I could draw out by I'll spare you till I've had a glass of wine....
Sorry miscutandstick. DS2 is 3.2. Good luck with the assessment today.

Our assesssment is at nursery but I'm asking them to call me when it's finished so I can run down there and meet the SALT.

Tclanger: the "I" pronoun seems quite solid.
The prepositions are more dodgy. As he pushes his train round the track he says "over the bridge" whether it's over or under. This could go on for some time I think. Will have to get DS1 to go "under" the table at mealtimes some more I think.

Oh and my neighbour is not a psychotherapist but a psychoanalyst (closest thing we have nowadays to classic Freudian techniques) - so tends to favour a psychological "everyone's different" explanation for everything - doubts the existence of autism, etc. She reminds me of the analyst in "Equus" who is grief-stricken when the distressed child is helped to get over his intense relationship with horses....I'm more of a Philip Larkin girl myself: his only wish for his godchild was "May you be ordinary" .

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misscutandstick · 17/11/2008 09:52

OMG - how can a person 'not beleive' in autism??? does she think dyslexia and ADHD is made up too??? oooh some people .

Its strange isnt it how speech difficulties present themselves in so many differing ways.

Thanks for your good wishes everyone.

Its a first assessment we're going to at a clinic, 11am. I have been a little worried about DS4's speech for a few months, then the teacher at nursery mentioned it too, so i decided some bull horn grasping was in order.

Actually its quite difficult to pinpoint exactly whats wrong with DS4's speech: he will put in far too many words in a sentence, use the persons name and a variety of pronouns ("Grandma, you like it you the flowers?", "DS4'ses cant like it me the dinner") with the object always going at the end. Never uses "I" its always "me" or his name. Doesnt use prepositions, but i think he understands the majority of them. Can use verbs. Cant answer an either/or question at all and gives a generic statement instead (Q}"do you want to walk with me or dad?" A}"you walking you mummy, daddy") cant answer the majority of "wh" Q's and cant describe/doesnt understand anything thats not here/now. Asking him what Bob T B 'does' or can do would have him baffled. Hes extremely ODC-y too. sorry to hyjack, hope you get on well and its a good outcome.

lingle · 17/11/2008 09:56

keep hijacking miscut - I start an awful lot of threads so always feel relieved when others join in. Also DS4's issues are very interesting....

sorry shouldn't have mentioned the neighbour. have probably made quite a few of you sigh with that. She's retired, if that helps!

The SALT has seen DS2 and is on her way to our house. I feel sick.

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bullet123 · 17/11/2008 10:11

Hope you get some clearer answers Lingle and MissCutstick and good luck to both of you.

lingle · 17/11/2008 12:23

thanks Bullet. Anyone seen the bruised emoticon?
I did right to say all the positive things last night.

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moondog · 17/11/2008 12:25

Lingle, print it out and show her. It will be very useful.
Good luck.

I'm sure she's quite normal. We mostly are. Tell her if yuo feel nervous though.

TotalChaos · 17/11/2008 12:53

I take it the appointment wasn't great then..... the early appointments can be pretty dismal. hope that you've got a good plan of action arising from this.

misscutandstick · 17/11/2008 13:48

well im back. hope everythings OK lingle (DOH if it were then the thread wouldnt exist!) but you know what i mean.

The salt we saw was very nice - just REALLLLY L O U D ! dunno why she had to shout everything . She did a quick vocab/understanding test - one where DS had to describe what was happening in little pictures and a quick family/health background.

Actually the test was quite eye-opening, not just about DS. After the test was done, she made a comment about him not really seeing the big picture, just minor points of the picture - in particular how each person was feeling, judging by the look on each face. EG. one boy was "wiggling his eyes" in DS's words (crying, and rubbing them) but only because the dog had stolen and broken the boys toy which DS hadnt even noticed.... but I hadnt either then it occured to me... OMG I DO THAT! i very often just look at the faces without the background information. OMG am i teaching him to do that??? OMG! the only thing thats good is the fact that i know that i do that now, and can make a conscious effort not to.

but back to the point. he does seem to have a 'few difficulties' with speech formation, and 'some difficulty' with understanding. but she wants to see him again next monday to complete the full assesment before she makes any decisions on what should be done. ie further work, home work, nursery strategies. So, i think it wasnt so bad, i was expecting a few probs, and thats what we got, and now something is being done about it, so all in all a good out come i think.

Lingle - how goes it your end?

misscutandstick · 17/11/2008 13:51

re-read your last post, and finally understood sorry im sorry it didnt seem to go so well, {{{HUGS}}}. are you OK?

Tclanger · 17/11/2008 14:15

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lingle · 17/11/2008 16:16

too bruised still. haven't had a blub yet. I'm sure that will liberate my usually prolific typing skills.

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TotalChaos · 17/11/2008 16:31

sorry you feel so low, these appointments can be depressing, particularly when they are assessing rather than just getting on with therapy.

Tclanger · 17/11/2008 16:58

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lingle · 17/11/2008 16:59

Well I gave her my "report" before she gave me hers (spot the lawyer).

Hers says no parallel play (I'm sure he's had this for at least a year) speech mostly echolalia, indifferent to other children, didn't want to share by looking at others, passive, easily moved on, interested in numbers. Ignored another child who said "come and play outside" (he loves playing outside with other children).

I don't recognise this child from home or playdates. But I do recognise him from peering in the nursery window.

Things I did recognise: a visual learner - may need visual cues to recognise choices. Sat looking around the room at circle time while the teacher explained what would be happening next without apparently understanding - but then joined in when the singing began.

Nursery teacher said the assessment was first thing and it takes DS2 a while to warm up in the mornings so she saw him at his "worst".

Outcomes: more "ginger bear" role play (he has this already because nursery teacher took the initiative and kept the materials after using them for another child last year )

Visual supports for language learning.

And she wants me to visit a community paediatrican for an initial assessment. We've not seen a paediatrician yet. This is because she wants a doctor to see him now and then in a year's time to see how he develops. Nursery teacher says please go for it because this paed is influential and her support will help us access materials/support.

She wanted to talk about her "3 questions" "is it a language issue, a learning disability or autism". I did not enjoy this part of the discussion. I felt that she didn't believe my description of DS2 at home - I'm sure she did, it's just how I felt.

At the end of it, I wanted to take DS2 away from them all and protect him. Truthfully I still feel like that now (I know this is not their fault). We've made an appointment for her to come to the house in January and I will be so stressed that it will probably affect DS2.

We went on a playdate this afternoon to a house where he's never been. he asked to turn the lights on but was very good when I told him we were "not allowed". He played trains alongside the host child (a sweetie). He wanted to be with the host child. After some chocolate he sat down next to host mum and asked her to tickle his doggie while we made doggie laughing noises. Then he and the host child chased each other around the playground (first time - he used to be too shy with this bigger boy) while we waited for big brothers.

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TotalChaos · 17/11/2008 17:37

wise words from Tclang just before your post. It's scary and demoralising when you feel your child is under "their" microscope. And when all these possible labels and diagnoses are posited. Having been in the position of being very upset by a suggestion (without foundation it turned out) of learning difficulties, until you get a more expert (ed psych/paed view) I would try and have faith in your instincts on that issue - and whatever happens - he's still your bright little boy - no diagnosis changes that. It's hard at this age to separate out how language problems affects social and play skills from potential signs of ASD - hopefully noone will be in any rush to diagnose, and won't do so unless and until they are fully certain. And whatever the specialists say - your boy is lucky - he's got you to work with him and fight for him

Tclanger · 17/11/2008 17:47

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littlemisschatalot · 17/11/2008 17:52

sat here a bit (shock)i have been reading your posts on and off since you first posted about your boys love of music.
i too am a specialist early years salt, and i am a bit surprised that the slt mentioned asd following a few assessments. we are not allowed to diagnose, esp without the child having seen any other professions such as paed, ed psy. surely the most important thing is not how quick you can reach a diagnosis, but how quickly you can offer solutions/help.
hope it all goes well,will watch with interest.remember mums are always right!

misscutandstick · 17/11/2008 18:07

im so sorry you've had such a crappy day, and those words are so hard to hear when 'they' never seem to see the same little boy you love and adore.

The upside to such a slap in the face is that if your little one needs a little assistance just to help him on his way, then this really is the only way to do it.

It will get better, and easier to handle. I am currently looking into a 3rd childs difficulties after the first having ADHD+ and the second being autistic. Its certainly not any easier to hear my childs 'imperfections' (for want of a better word) but its easier to see why these horrid days have to happen. I remember all too well the tears of hurt and upset with DS1, and I too wanted to wrap him up and make it all go away.

If you want to rant, shout, or have a good whinge, we are here when you are ready. The vast majority on here know how you feel and you are not on your own. {{{HUGS}}} for your journey. XXX