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Has anyone used "1,2,3 Magic" by Thomas Phelan with their AS child??

30 replies

mrspitt · 10/11/2008 13:33

This book was suggested to me today by ds's nurse therapist and i just wondered if it's any good and does it work?? Or would it only actually be helpful in an NT child?

I haven't got a copy yet so don't know the principles behind it, anyone got any experiences to share.......................
please??

TIA

OP posts:
Wisp · 10/11/2008 13:56

I have used this since my DS1 was about 2, he has ASD, and also ADHD and anxiety problems. The book was recommended by a child psychologist.
Very good book, and I still mainly use this method 5 years on.
In a nutshell you count to three and if the child doesn't stop misbehaving, whinging etc by the time you reach 3,then they have time out, you DONT speak to them at all after you have reached 3, so they can't "bargain" their way out of the punishment.
My DS needs this sort of regime, where it is the same every time, and he has the choice of stopping before I reach 3, if he doesn't want time out.Works very well with all three children, and usually, they will stop when I reach 2
Hope that helps

magso · 10/11/2008 14:53

I have used it with my ADHD/ASD/LD son since he was about 2.5 and beginning to understand speech. I think this method was designed for children with challenging behaviour (e.g. ADHD) but found to work well with all children ie nt as well! It is quite a simple method with lots of regular elements/ repetition and few words. It teaches the child to make choices and take responsibility. I do not know how well it would work with AS but the methods used at ds (ASD/MLD) school are very similar! As my son has delayed language I use nonverbal warnings (one finger- 2 finger- 3) to suppliment verbal warnings.
The main concepts are stopping unwanted behaviours, 'starting' helpful ones ( getting cooperation) and encouraging self esteem/ happy family relationships.
I have seen amother in France doing the same 'un -'!Can you get it from the library? I found attending a workshop with the Mr Phelan helpful (he is also very entertaining!)

mrspitt · 10/11/2008 15:55

Hi
Thanks very much magso and wisp!
Good to know it does help. My ds is now 7 but i have used the counting to 3 works for him, in that usually he stops by 3 but prob not to the same extent the book teaches.

My ds does need consistency also, and he is now realising how he can manipulate people so if we are ALL using the same method he can't do that

I don't mind buying the book if it's useful just wanted to check first.
Thanks a lot x

OP posts:
nikos · 10/11/2008 15:59

What does he suggest doing if you count to three and the desired behaviour is not forthcoming? That's the problem we have - ds doesn't mind the naughty step or being sent to his room.

mrspitt · 10/11/2008 16:02

HA HA Nikos !!

Now that i would like to know !!!

OP posts:
magso · 10/11/2008 16:44

Itis not just counting to 3 and time out. I will admit it doesnt work in all situations -(for instance during a panic or melt down) I used 123 to work on hitting and biting (ds has sevLD) and the fact that ds hates being ignored was rather useful).It is particularly good with the deliberate/ manipulative behaviour! I imagine an able child would need a more appropriate sanction (like missing computor time or whatever). Ds also has to pay back time wasted at school when it is under his control.

nikos · 10/11/2008 17:28

Ds has a problem with hitting and anger (susopected ASD and 4 years old). I've run out of strategies and was going to post today. That's why am wondering if this might be the answer. Could you give a brief description of how it would work if ds was in the middle of hitting?

PheasantPlucker · 10/11/2008 18:20

My dd is being assessed for ASD and has a diagnosis of ADHD - as well as CP/epilepsy.

We were told to use the book by an excellent Clin Psych who specialises in children like my dd who have neurological impairments. It doesn't ALWAYS work, but we have been impressed with results on the whole.

For our dd the lack of social interaction and being ignored in the 'time out' situations work well, as she hates not being the centre of everything.

nikos · 10/11/2008 22:23

Anyone else tried this?

magso · 11/11/2008 10:18

Nikos sorry did not get back to you. Challenging evening but ds (nonliterate?) did read a word - I think!!
The 123 book I have is rather thin - the talk/seminar I attended was organised for parents of kids with ADHD and was more targeted. I had to modify things for my child so I usea mix. The most helpful bit is keeping me cool calm and collected (I wish) by having rehearsed phrases and silences ie it gave me tools when I felt completely at sea. My biggest problem was ( still is!)getting a modicum of compliance from ds- this comes under Start behaviours - where a consiquence (eg loss of tv viewing) is enacted for not doing as asked. However stopping hitting is a STOP behaviour. With impulsive Ds there is impulsive one off hitting (immediate time out or praise if he stops it just in time not 123!)and thoughtless repetative patting/pinching (meaning mummy do this now now now) for attention (use 123). There is also lost it completely tantrum (123 supposed to help but not for asd perhaps -?). If Ds is arm tapping or pulling(a repetitive but painful behaviour) he knows he must stop so I espect him to have stopped before 3 - if he doesnt -he gets a prearranged consequence. Most kids you could just say 'be gentle' but ds needed to learn to take control so not sure if my experience is relevent to others.

nikos · 11/11/2008 10:29

The problem we have with ds is that he doesn't respond at all to the idea of consequences. Really don't know what to do now. He will play nicely with his siblings, but will also just randomly hit them and there seems no provocation.
He is very high functioning, but his anger and hitting are becoming a major obstacle to him enjoying interaction.

magso · 11/11/2008 15:30

I am sure very bright children (and siblings) must be so hard to parent! Much of our difficulties (ds has sevLD and is impulsive to the nth degree) relate to ds having to learn (and keep forgetting) everything the hard way and having to use very simple techniques! Also he can go from ok to frustrated and lost in a nanosecond!
I think consequences alone do not work - ds needs far more carrots than sticks! Carrots can be just plain 'noticing' desirable behaviour (you walked past me carefully thanks!)to stars on the jumper to earning tv minutes. Carrots are nicer for parents too. I also find now ds is older and getting upset with his unacceptable behaviour that ds needs to earn back his self respect ie by 'paying back' doing something helpful or nice for the injured party! This is not part of a consequence.
The NAS has a Help2 seminar specifically for parents of as kids called managing anger. You do not have to be a member.
Hope others with AS kids come along!

nikos · 11/11/2008 15:56

Thanks Magso. You've made me aware that I don't praise ds enough when he is doing well. It's so easy to forget this - have got three children close in age. And also perhaps even more important with children with ASD.
His hitting is really getting me down though. We had seen a big improvement but it seems to be coming back now.

dustystar · 11/11/2008 16:47

We've used 123 magic and found it really helpful. Its very simple to use and ds generally responds to it although he frequently waits until just before you say 3 before complying! There is a dvd of a 123 magic seminar which we found really helpful.

magso · 13/11/2008 11:20

Suspect the dvd may be better than the book? The useful thing with the seminar was the attitude -hearing how to say things - the turning away, body language, the frosty silence and the context! A lot of behaviour managent is complicated by adult feelings (IMHO) and being able to not take it personally is so handy!!

nannynick · 15/11/2008 10:12

If you haven't got the book, the Newsletters are worth reading.

Jan 2007 edition contains a bit about using 123 with SN children.

LorriCraig · 23/03/2010 19:32

I'm a psychologist and have encouraged parents with challenging children to use Phelan 123 MAGIC strategy with great success.
I'm running a free online seminar for parents of difficult to manage 4 to 10 year olds very soon, and will be covering Dr Phelan's principles, amongst other things. You can register your interest in this and future online seminars [webinars] at www.psychologythroughtheinternet.com
or www.childtrainingsecrets.com

I'd love to have you on board. The more the merrier!

niminypiminy · 23/03/2010 20:55

I was advised by a really good child psychologist NOT to use the 123 Magic technique on DS1 who has AS. He is extremely non-compliant and oppositional, but she advised (and I think rightly) that attempting to force compliance through this technique will simply make him more oppositional. He has a huge need to be in control and demands make him hyper-anxious.

So we use choices and consequences quite a lot, rewards for desired behaviours, and also rewards for absence of negative behaviours (you can watch Ben 10 if you have a tick in each of 8 1/2 hour boxes for not hitting your brother etc).

We also use strategies such as 'please could you be my special helper and...' 'as you're the oldest could you show DS2 how good you are at...' 'it would make me so happy if you could...'. And reducing demands. The aim is to get him into a habit of more compliance than non-compliance with a minimal set of demands and then gradually to increase them.

I wish we could use a one-size-fits-all technique like 123 Magic -- apart from anything else round here there are free courses teaching it. But it isn't magic for us.

PipinJo · 25/03/2010 09:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ouryve · 25/03/2010 16:12

niminypminy, my DS1 is very much like your DS in a lot of ways. Direct rewards don't do it for him, either, though - he views them with much suspicion and regards the filling out of reward charts as yet another demand! We really do have to work hard to make him believe that it's him who wants to carry out the desired behaviour. A bit of love and logic works well in some situations and, like your DS, we have to keep demands to a minimum, particularly if he's not having a good day.

PipinJo - DS1 loves his solitude, but hates being forced into it. Keeping him in a place where a situation erupted just prolongs and exacerbates his outburst. If he's being rude and complaining and spitting at the dinner table, we tell him "DS1, you are being very rude. You need to stop xyz. (we usually wait for a response, here) If you can't stop xyz, you will unfortunately need to go and sit in the corner and allow us to enjoy our dinner without you disturbing us. Which is it to be? Eat nicely? Or corner?" He often ends up in the corner and hates it enough to come back with a much more pleasant attitude to the mealtime in a very short time. He often tries to use food refusal as a controlling tool, but a short time out shows him that it will not work, because he gets his audience removed pretty sharpish. We don't do 123 magic, since when he was younger, it just made him laugh to hear us count and now, it escalates rather than calms his behaviour.

SE13Mummy · 25/03/2010 17:02

I'm a mainstream teacher and have written a whole-school behaviour policy using 123 Magic, for a school in inner-London jam-packed with children with ADHD, many with EBD and a number of children with ASD. We used it as a way of improving consistency across the school in terms of responding to unwanted behaviour coupled with raising the profile of the reward system we used for acknowledging and rewarding desired behaviour - both were used for all children regardless of any additional needs but were supplemented by extra reward strategies for those who needed it.

One of the major successes was with reducing the emotional involvement in sanctions for unwanted behaviour. We went from members of staff 'having a go' at children by saying, "X that's a warning because you've done this, you've done that, I'm fed up of blah blah blah" to reducing the attention given for pre-defined, unwanted behaviours to, "X, that's 1".

The time saved meant teachers could get back to teaching more rapidly, other children's learning wasn't held up by an argument between adult and child and it also meant that adults actively looked for the positive behaviours to reward because they could be more gushing about those (now being limited when 'telling off'). The giving of a 1,2 or 3 was referred to as a reminder (of the thing that was being done that was counter-productive to learning) and a simple tally mark went on an A4 chart by the teacher's chair - every child's name was on this in alphabetical order so children could visually track how they were doing in terms of reminders. Session lengths varied according to the age/needs of the class and each session started afresh.

Using 1,2,3 magic across the school was reinforced in the playground and in each classroom by provision of a 'blue zone' (blue mat/spot, blue table and chair, blue bench) in every space so that once children had been 'through' the 1,2 and 3 they spent some time apart from everyone else on/in the blue zone. Time out depended on child's age.

For the vast majority of children it was very successful and I'd love to put it to use in my current school (but I'm not responsible for behaviour here) as I think the tracking element, the non-emotional reminder system, pre-defined STOP behaviours, consistent approach across setting and personnel can be incredibly effective for all children but especially children with ASD for whom random systems and vague adults all wondering in with different approaches and tolerances for disruptive behaviours is far from helpful.

It does need to be coupled with a strong reward system though; I cringe whenever I observe systems (usually in schools) that draw attention to unwanted behaviour with great enthusiasm but fail to couple it with a reward system.

I'm not sure my reply has helped you as a parent but I thought I'd share it anyway!

want2sleep · 25/03/2010 18:26

see where your coming from ouryve on that point....but I could see ds using it to escape the classroom

SE13...it's great the school had fantastic consistency a rareity these days that helped a lot too I would think!

I am guessing the blue areas was a symbol of you have been naughty time to reflect! So it did have a structured consistent consequence...which i think is good when the child is ready for that!

SE13Mummy · 25/03/2010 18:46

I should probably have said that each classroom had more than one blue zone so for children who would benefit from a quiet table/safe space there was the option of them taking themselves to a blue zone and knowing that that alone would signal to an adult that they were feeling overwhelmed/whatever.

The idea was very much that blue zones weren't considered 'naughty tables' but a visual and physical means of adults and children communicating to one another that something was up. Obviously there were some children who considered them 'naughty tables' but it wasn't a term we ever used!

want2sleep · 25/03/2010 19:14

WOW even the dc took themselves off! I really like that idea! So it was used for quiet time as well as inappropriate behaviours 'time out' or something similar.
and zones in every classroom...was it a private school or maintained? I'm curious what school it is as sounds perfect in terms of strategies

Do you miss working their SE12? It sounded a fab innoventive place to work!

Ampersand44 · 25/03/2010 19:57

Nikos - I'd love to know too! CAMHS mentioned this system to me the other day but did not say there was a book. Might try it, but in the past DS (8, waiting AS diagnosis confirmation) always follows 1, 2, 3 with 4, 5, 6, and like you going to room not seen as a punishment. When smaller and put on 'naughty chair' or step he would then just refuse to get off! We find it increasingly hard to work out general manipulative naughty behaviour from the behaviour which is trying to tell us there is some other sensory or otherwise difficulty going on. So then I completely lose confidence as to how best to deal with it.