Cant quite decide...

[misscutandstick]

how much of DS4's behaviour is due to him being 3y/o and wether theres anything 'lurking beneath'...

He HAS to have his own way - major wobbly if things arent quite right, usually really unimportant stuff to 'us normal people' . If hes playing or doing something and we need to go, or change what hes doing.

Needs to have things just so, IE food on the same plate, blankets in bed just so, etc.

His need to have most of his words repeated, by the listener 2 or 3 times. Endless rounds of any particular song each day. 'Parrots' phrases used in programmes hes seen - but usually in some (sometimes obscure) context. IE dora the explorers "count with me" (exact intonation), but when he is counting stuff, thomas tank engines exclaimation "cinders and ashes!" if hes dropped something.

Hes really stroppy about most stuff and so uptight about everything! was quite a fussy baby.

No mannerisms to speak of (except likes stacking/lining BUT NOT excessively - but more than the others ever have. Also needs his blankie wherever we go), milestones on time, average illnesses, no allergies, just longsighted (wears glasses - with a fight!)

DS1 is ADHD, DS5 is Autistic... perhaps im looking too hard??? Is this typical stroppy toddlerhood, or something more sinister?

Sounds par for the course for your average 3 year old. My eldest only ever lines up video boxes - nothing else. The youngest lined things up - he's NT the eldest is a poloygot of conditions with ASD in there.

The only thing that rings a bell is the parroting of phrases my eldest did that but other NT 3 year olds do it too.

I would say that if there are problems they will surface at nursery/playgroup and social interaction time. I would wait until then. and I stand in awe that you have FIVE. I can't cope with two!

thanks FM - good idea about nursery, he starts in about 2wks, will ask them to keep an eye on him and see how things go.

five boys, yes. We do tend to take our own fan club wherever we go! shoe shopping is a nightmare and we usually take up 2 tables in Mcd's! Theme parks are a bit of a pain cos often its a 2+2 arrangement (or 1+3) either way we just dont fit unless one of us goes round a couple of times! We have a minibus, and i keep saying to DH that theres still a seat spare...

and does he turn a funny colour???

Also impressed that your name implies craft activities with (hushed voice) children. Am uber crap at anything pertaining to glueing, sticking, glitter (aghhhh)and the ilk. The only time DS2 went to infant school with something semi decent was when SIL was down (she is gifted with glue and glitter). It made a change from the normal sorry affair I produce (accompanied with vast quantities of swearing - with the ASD son going 'mummy, it's wrong to swear')

Have just done shoe shopping today. Son 2 (the nt one) is developing into what people might fondly term 'a character' and keeps doing Inspector Cluseou (sp?) impressions . . . Meanwhile the eldest (13) is intent on 'making him behave' and keeps telling him off really loudly. Still its better than when number 1 was younger and had his hair fettish and kept trying to stroke the hair of the shop assistant

funny colour? no... but he keeps plonking 'stuff' on there and saying there simply isnt enough room!

Thing is: we've been soooo lucky, kinda a 'buy one get one' affair - DS2 arrived and brought freebie number 3, DS4 arrived and brought freebie number 5... good lord what would happen if number 6 happened to be twins??? we'd be looking at getting a coach!

I do indeed phaff with bits of pretty paper, its my 'thing' (along with choccy of course!) We have a very high breakfast bar that most children cant quite reach yet , which comes in handy on stressful days/evenings and the scissors go into overdrive and the paper bits get smaller and smaller . Just recently procured myself a 'home rubber stamp-making kit" it really is fab, the kids want me to make stamps of their hands I do wonder what on earth for?

Ohh your DS2 would get along famously with my father (ADHD)- also an avid inspector fan, whose one of only 2 impressions is: "do you hav a lisonse for the minky?" in a loud dodgy accent, honestly he makes me cringe worse than the kids . I also cringe at DS5's (2.3y autism) latest 'habit', licking stuff - and the brighter the colour, the more determined he is... i feel sorry for the assistants whose uniforms happened to be red/yellow. Its particularly gross in play parks with the tarmacy-soft-landing stuff, its always garish colours! [retching icon]

We too have the eldest (15y ADHD) who thinks hes now obviously a man (had a real shave last week ). Im really not sure what looks worse - mom screaming at her kids... or mom ignoring the one who's screaming at the others

ahhhhh little darlings arent they???

I'm dreading when DS1 shaves. He will have to have an elecric one - the blood shed with a normal razor doesn't bear thinking about.
We've just done the 'cheapy trainers for pe' shopping expeditions and DS1 was being slightly painful and I have to admit to hissing at him 'It doesn't matter about the bloody laces being like that - you're being autistic about this - just tell me do they FIT???' To which he replied 'I know mum, and yes they do' Hurray!

I too have a 'thing' about chocolate. In much admiration of your ability to be creative. But can I be very very dim. Um, I know biology isn't my top subject but how did you get a 'free' child when you had DS2 (have visions of a midwife popping up shouting - it's a special offer week and you get 2 for the price of one). Or are they twins or am I just being very very stupid (a distinct possibility).

DS2s favourite saying is 'you have a meuth in your reum' but he keeps coming out with other stuff in the accent and reduces me to giggles each time. We are all in a state of excitment as its his birthday tomorrow. He's been desperate to be 8 for so long. Of course as soon as he gets back to school everybody else is going to start being 9.

Better go and ice cake (which necessitated buying M&S chocolate buttons - can't think why . . .)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY FLYING BOY! what have you got planned for him? and whats he asked for? I love birthdays!

we still have the shoe shopping to do we're looking at 3 pairs of school, 1 PE trainers (for senior school), 1 'supportive ankle' shoes, 1 pair work shoes... really not looking forward to it.

I think its a real step forward (pardon the pun) for KNOWING if his shoes fit!!! Well done your DS!!! DS1 (ADHD 15yrs) has yet to grasp the concept and just gets really stressed trying to decide I still 'fit' his shoes for him . He has this obsession where if just one bilimetre (a thousandth of a millimetre ) of shoe lace is 'spare', he has to tuck it in to the top of the shoe... whereupon it falls out about every 3 steps. If you're wondering: YESS! we now resort to laceless shoes of any description (velcro elastic, selotape, duct tape, staple gun ) to avoid the 30min walk to the car Incidentally on the razor thing, he might not be as bad as you think - DS1 is dyspraxic too, and doesnt draw too much blood and says that the electric razor "pulls out the hair in his face" and wont use one.

DS2 was planned in the traditional way ("i want a baby, how about it?") and when DS2 was just 5 months old, we found out that DS3 was on the way... DS4 was planned down to the day (no, honestly!) and when he was 12wks, we found out that DS5 wouldnt be far behind him. Actually DS2's birthday is on Saturday, so had he been born 24hrs later and he would have been the oldest in the year at school - as it is hes the youngest im sure that you know, but that means nearly a full year between the oldest and DS2, thats a huge amount of learning time, and time to grown and develop had he been in the next year group down

Incidentally DH is a teacher, and as he was marking the ICT GCSE work before the 6wks hols, he noticed that most of the top groups were all children born in the first half of the year - before easter... and the lower half of learning groups tended to be children born after May (in their year groups) maybe the powers that be ought to think on that too!

anyhoo, cake icing - now theres one im useless at! given it a try, and it usually looks like the kids have given it a going over , what cake have you got, and how is the icing going?

just wondered how the birthday went?

Hi

Flying Boy had a lovely birthday, thank you. We went to Legoland - not been before. It was very busy but we got there for just after 10 and stayed until we felt exhausted at about 5.45. Thanks to DS1 we got exit passes so didn't have to queue for too long and so they got to do the things they wanted to. DS2 bought lots of lego with his birthday money which he has proceeded to build (with me - but I love lego )

DS1 is very pleased as his long awaited computer has arrived and been installed. He's been saving for it for ages and working hard in the garden and he is soooo happy.

So some golden childhood moments which is lovely.

The cake was, if I say so myself, a bit of an achievement. It was my basic chocolate cake plus icing and then I put choccie buttons inside and flying boy wanted smarties on it so tons of those and bits of flake and I bought some piping white choc icing and managed to pipe his name and happy birthday on it without it looking like a complete wreck.

I'm a teacher too. Back to school next week (boo hiss). Just been trying to plan some lessons and failing miserably.

Good luck on the shoe shopping. The laces thing sounds a nightmare. The only thing is that when their feet get to a certain bigness then velcro is harder to find. DS1 learned how to do his laces this year (yay for the OT!)and so at least its widened the options a bit.

All the best.

Great to hear he had a lovely birthday! LEGOLAND! oooh never been there... we live Nottinghamshire(ish) so it would be too far to travel for the day - and still have time to play!

DS2 had a great time too, we went to Flamingoland (theme park) which he thoroughly enjoyed especially as DS1 allowed us exit passes/queue passes too! we only discovered them this year GGGRRRRRRRR!!! how many years (11yrs, OMG) did we spend a tortuous half/hour in the queues unnecessarily??? with half the queue wishing we had exit passes!?! so im going to make big use over the next few years! (DS5 being 2y, and is entitled!)

Talking of the day out, it was all too much for DS5 who steadfastly declined to leave his pram for the first 3hrs of being there... suffered with far too much: noise, people, 'big' things, and strange stuff... it was all too much and resulted in a nighttime meltdown. Today has not been much better - very withdrawn, acute lining of trains, severe blanket rubbing. but as he went to bed, was looking slightly better... perhaps not a day out for his birthday then?

So, you're a teacher too? ooooh how co-incidental! what do you teach and which age? had you noticed about the ability/age thing too?

The cake sounds delish!!! with that much choccy on, its got to be a winner! sounds like you did yourself proud! well done!

Half of us: cant eat cake, or chocolate, or smarties, or dont like choccy cake (personally i could eat the lot! ) but everyone has to blow out the candles in turn (relighting till theres nothing left!) so usually theres more wax than anything else on there

Impressed at your DS1 for saving for computer - its a real acheivement! im sure that it will make the whole thing more exciting and precious. well done DS1!

Laces: DS1 is practically in mens shoe sizes now (although hes always worn shoes at least one size too big, resulting in a 'krusty-the-clown-look' but now he generally wears mules or something similar. DS2 (dyslexic) is a terrible lace tyer, (starts secondary this week) can do it (only learnt quite recently), but falls apart easy, oh well.

righty DH getting in a flap about me not being in bed with him so gonna stop rambling - speak to you soon!

Chocolate cake is not so impressive. I make one sort of cake (6 oz of flour, fat, sugar and three eggs - for chock 4 of flour and 2 of cocoa) and then butter icing (4 oz of butter and 6 of icing sugar/cocoa). DS1 makes it very well and he wanted to do it for flying boy this year but we landed up short of time and he was off bouncing on the trampoline so I did it in the end. They all helped eat it though .

Your poor DS5. I think when they are so small that they get so stressed because they don't understand the why and wherefore of the busyiness. Even DS1 being 13 found Legoland quite hard work and as a consequence got a bit more twitchy than usual. He announced in the shop (which was heaving). 'Gosh it's like a shop in Tokyo in here its so busy' (they did Japan at school last year) I too was an innocent into getting into places cheaper and the likes of exit passes. I didn't know anything about DLA until DS1 was in year 4 and he was doing SALT with another very similar chap and his mother had been claiming for YEARS. It's been a revelation that we can get into places free in some cases for me and reduced for him. I don't really consider myself as his carer as half the time he looks after me .

I teach English but am moving this year to a different dept and am going to be in the Special Support Unit teaching literacy and supporting a small number of children who have very weak literacy, speech and language difficulties and various other things. It's a bit of a departure from teaching 30 but it should be interesting and hopefully fun. There certainly won't be the same amount of marking (which is huge for English) but there is tons of planning and prep to do because there doesn't seem to be any set scheme as yet.

How is your DS2 looking forward to starting secondary. It's a bit daunting at first but generally the year 7s I've taught over the years love having science and tech lessons in classrooms with gagets in them and proper PE lessons with real pe teachers. Will he get support for his dyslexia? Are your boys at the same school that your DH teaches at?

Good luck with the start of term. I'm in tomorrow and suppose I ought to go and pack up the pe kit and all that stuff for flying boy but as usual will probablly leave it to the last minute. Suppose I ought to go and cook some tea as well... (snore - I like cooking but preparing endless meals over the summer just kills it for me)

All the best

Well, i took flyingmums advice and waited till nursery...

Went to parents eve the other day and got the low down. Teacher reports:

1. DS4 WILL NOT share, steadfast and stubborn, with anyone.
2. if he does not wish to do something, he wont - persuation and conjoling dont touch it, even direct commands dont always cut it if hes 'busy' with something else that he has to finish.
3. lastly, but i feel most importantly: his speech, the teacher is quite concerned and has requested someone to come and assess (tho it could be xmas easily by then - should i intervene and self refer?) the problem is quite strange. He can basic describe stuff ie. hard, soft, big, little, colours and numbers, even a few letters. but he cant describe an action or a place or events ie. what he did this morning, or understand where something is (IE under TV, in room). I dont think his understanding is as good as we thought - he gives answers that dont match the question at all, more kind of a tangent ie. Q)would you like to hold my hand or dads hand? A) "no, that is you mummys hand"

All his sentences are 'backwards', he gets his meaning across, but you kinda have to be mastermind to work out what hes saying - hes 3.5yrs, my others are 11, 10, and 16, so i dont really remember what it should be like. Apart from DS1 who couldnt be understood at all until he was 4.5yrs because of the jargon speak he used.

examples of DS4's speech are:
's dont like it the bench (referring to not liking the seat)
I cant want to
my 's house like it. (referring to liking being home)
You like it the pretty flowers mummy?

when he is desperately trying to explain something (and its painful for us both!) he wont get the sentences in the right order either:
we cleaned it the floor. dirty on floor. It fell over. he broked it. The table. we cleaned it. brush. Boys got brush. On the floor...

so im still here wondering if theres something lurking, DS5's first SALT said "speech problems NEVER come as JUST speech problems"...

Im so out of touch at this point, how unusual is his speech? am i making a mountain out of a molehill?

Well, some of the speech issues sound a bit like DD. I'm pretty sure she's not ASD but there's definitely some dev. delay and a speech disorder going on. Admittedly, she's older, but some of the disordered speech sounds a bit like her.
For example....imagine an exchange between me and DD
DD "Mummy wipe it!!"
Me "Wipe what"
DD "Wipe what"
DD "Mummy wipe it the floor"
Me "Did you spill yoghurt on the floor?"
DD "Spill yoghurt on the floor. Mummy wipe it!"
Don't know if this helps. She's my eldest so I don't really know what they are supposed to sound like at this age!

sounds quite like my ds who is currently being assessed by salt, just before he starts nursery. his sentences are emerging, but are very stilted and often, as you say, "backwards".

he has always been very repetitive with phrases he has learned from tv. i have the feeling that he is memorising chunks of language and trying to fit them into his communication, rather than communicating in a more fluid way. i'm hardly making sense to myself here, but i think i know what i mean!!

anyway, so far the salt has said that his language delay is secondary to his social interaction difficulties. this came as a big shock to me as he is a very sociable wee boy. it's just that he does not seem to have absorbed the rules for social communication, turn taking, shared attention, etc, and just sticks with his own agenda regardless.

we have our next salt appointment next monday. he has made a LOT of progress, so i'm waiting nervously to find out if there is something "lurking" or not.

it sounds like your ds may be frustrated by his communciation difficulties? in that case, it wouldn't do any harm to get a salt appointment.

ragged robin - think i will self refer, im sure it will be quicker (around here anyway) than going thru the school system. I watch your future posts with interest and support. {{{hugs}}}

This is interesting. My DD is 2.11 and has been assessed recently, needs 1:1, partly due to inability to do group activities, partly due to concentration being that of a gnat (lovely that she is), partly due to escapee tendencies.

She fell over without cause in pre-school last Thursday, so went to GP, who sent to hospital. Cue: Mass of investigations and huge relief on my part.

One of the things I am noticing is that she speaks the wrong way round, too!

ie. DD no want to pre-school.
DD no want to sleep
DD have it the bricks

Perhaps it is a quirk that isn't so quirky - I will update when I have an answer, lol.

aww thanks miss! will keep you posted.

Thanks for the message LOU, you are right - it seems to be a bit of an epidemic!

DS5's SALT came this morning - so rang a quick once over with her, and she thinks its worth a look at too, she was a little concerned that the understanding of questions was lacking even tho he understands each of the individual words. so will ring and arrange something, she gave me the direct number (guess its who you know...)

Totally with you on the not really understanding but knowing the words.

DD today - Where Nanny gone?
Me - She's gone home.
DD - DD go home too.

She thinks that 'home' means Nanny and Grandad's house. Not home.

Going to collect DH from work:

Me- Are you ready, DD?
DD - I ready!
Me - is DD2 ready?
DD - DD2 ready!
Me - Let's go.

In car, half way through journey:

DD- You ready Mummy?
Me -Er, yes..
DD- DD2 ready!
DD- I ready, let's go!

Obviously doesn't understand that we are already going!

misscut - salt today said we are looking at either hfa or speech disorder. she says it's too early to tell.

I wanted to dredge this thread up and see how everyone was going 6mths on. Has there been improvements? or has there been more professionals involved?

DS4 currently sees his SALT for weekly slots, and we have seen a massive improvement in him NOT using his name and saying 'I' instead , and i think that the phrasing is better too. However he still does not understand any of the 'wh' questions, or have a clue how to answer them. He is even more fussy (if thats even possible!) and is impossible to please. Major meltdowns frequently. Currently he is 3.10 and needs EVERYTHING just so. Toilet training still continues to be a battle, reliably dry in daytime, but other than that its just not happening.

So hows everyone else doing?

forgot to mention (just re-read raggedrobins post) that DS4 seems to have friends in nursery but cant remember a single name! He still echoes huge amounts of what is said to him, in exact intonation. Ragged, hows it going your end?

Hi Miscut. His speech patterns are very similar to a chap I teach in year 8 whose sentence structures are shot to bits but makes sense in every other way.

The wh questions are the most advanced and are the last to be 'formed'. 'Why' being the last one.

I have to say he does sound a bit like my eldest was at the same age who does have ASD (but can do empathy, sympathy, prediction, pretence and is kind and lovely) AND a speech and language problem. It was noticable early on but once he turned 5 and sorted his pronouns out it got better. Then he didn't STOP talking!!! and now he's pretty good. He has speech therapy at school now and I would say that his vocabulary level is really good although he can still get contexts wrong - particularly with emotions. Back to an earlier comment I made - I have had to buy him a razor for his 14th birthday - its electric so no cut throats . He's very proud of himself (ahhhhhh).

Getting back to your chap I would say that now I am teaching a small number of students mostly who have S&L needs but who arn't classically on the spectrum that they do all have shades of grey of ASD - particularly with sharing, turntaking, listening, attention but they haven't got the full blown thing if you see what I mean.

Hi Misscutandstick

Several months on:

-DD has been diagnosed with epilepsy.
-SALT say she is delayed by 7 months, but not disordered. Comprehension and expression about the same in her opinion. I feel that she has something more going on there, but will bide my time. It will reveal.
-She still gets completely the wrong end of the stick (Today DH was telling her off and I called down "Remember stick & carrot", referring to giving an incentive to do as she was told rather than punishment for not doing so. DD: "I want stick and carrot!").
-Still requires 1:1 at preschool.
Seems to enjoy it, but clearly no clue what is going on a lot of the time, doesn't seem to be able to just 'follow the crowd'
-Sleep terrible.
-Major meltdowns with hitting kicking etc.

How is everyone else?

DD has been diagnosed PDD (but this is in France and dx here are slightly different to UK. Main probs still speech and language). Recently has been doing well - improvements in all areas, but real setbacks since start of school hols which is unlike her. Positively autistic behaviour today - spending hours lining up her toys and getting upset when they fall over or when Mummy intervenes and says that we have to go out!
Loves her school and seems popular (?) even though she is socially completely inept and doesn't speak at all at school. (She's very touchy feely, which a 4 year old girl can get away with - hugs and hand-holding). Two weeks ago I've have said we were doing well. Today I'm not so certain, but then it's like that, sometimes, isn't it! Also wish I could tell for DS (19 months). Most of the time I'm pretty sure he's NT, but then I look at the fact he's not walking and get all paranoid .
DD also suffering from constipation, I think, and have noticed that behaviour is ALWAYS worse when she's constipated, so am wondering what this means for her diet (which generally is pretty good).
Sorry, long answer

aww, great that the salt is having such a positive influence and there has been such progress, miss!

we don't have regular salt yet; she said they would let him settle ito nursery before they go to observe him. he is fairly settled so i think i'll be starting my "pushy mum" phone calls to ensure an appointment.

ds has been making progress, but like brioche, we have frequent periods where he seems to regress a bit. we've just had a very repetitive weekend, lots of tv speak, even though his access to tv has been greatly reduced. lots of sensory seeking behaviours too, crawling with head pushed into the floor, spinning, shewing clothes, etc.

not great with "i", but has mastered most questions other than "why". still has very variable response frequency though. nursery say he is very distractable and often follows own agenda, but that he does also try to conform with the group at times, which i was heartened by.

thanks for asking though, it's good to catch up!

even longer than brioche!!