I have an idea, but DH thinks it is awkward, weird, strange AND odd. What do you think?

[TinySocks]

DH used all those words! So he really means it.
It is about toilet training DS1 (3.5 y/o GDD). He doesn't seem to understand that he needs to ask me for the toilet before producing the goods.

This is the potty training status with him:

He is only using nappies for the night, never during the day.
He can stay dry for 2.5 to 3 hours without a problem.
When I take him to the toilet (at home or when out) he has no problem producing. He just concentrates for a couple of seconds and listo.
He knows he shouldn't go in his pants.
If I ask him "DS do you need the toilet?", he always replies NO (it's on auto mode)
I've tried giving him chocolate after he goes.
I even tried using ancientmum's cold shower technique when he poos in his pants.

Nothing is working! I can read his body language really well now, so if I see that he is about to have a bowel movement, I tell him, "wait wait WAIT let's go to the toilet", and he is able to wait while I dash him to the toilet.

If I don't take him to the toilet (after his 3 hour gap), just to see what happens, he goes in his pants and then comes looking for me to tell me about it.

SO, here is what I thought. He is very much a visual learner. So my idea is to ask 2 or 3 friends to allow me to film their kids asking them for the toilet, then taking them to the toilet, sitting on it, flushing, washing hands. I would then show DS this tape over and over again until he realizes that he needs to ask me before the event.

DH thinks no way jose should I ask my friends to film their children in the toilet. But I tell him that my friends know about DS's problem, they know I am a decent person, so what is the problem?

What do you ladies think? I really don?t want to ask my friends for a favour that would be too awkward.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with the filming idea. I would be happy for another kid to accompany DS to the toilet as a "role model" but would draw the line at filming. I wonder whether a less awkward way round this would be for you and/or DH to be the main role model - and either video yourself (instead of a request, just say "I need the toilet" before you go to the toilet, or or do that without the videoing.

before DS could say "I need the toilet" he would just wander off to the toilet by himself when appropriate, so I didn't have the same problems to deal with. When out I would ask and would usually but not always get the right answer!

Thanks for answering TC.
DH and I do this sort of thing anyway. And also when I visit my friends in their houses and their little ones go to the toilet I always make a big fuss about it and show DS.

But it is just not sinking in, that is why I thought that the video would help, because I would be able to show it to him several times a day.

PS: DH is looking over my shoulder and saying "I TOLD YOU"

Odd, maybe, but not awkward, weird or strange imo. If you were my friend and asked under the circumstances you describe, I'd say yes.

apologies if I am speaking out of turn..

Do you think he maybe doesn't realize he needs to go? Ime even lots of nt children at that age and older even, don't seem to realize they need the toilet until they're absolutely desperate and sometimes then they've left it too late. At that age I can quite well remember asking my ds if he needed the toilet before we went out and he said no, I've then told him to go and try anyway and he's gone and had a wee.

Nappies at night is absolutely normal at this age and iirc not considered to be an issue until a child is around 7.

yes unfortunately Wannabe may be right, maybe he isn't quite at the stage of connecting the sensations he's feeling with thinking he should be heading for the loo.

Message withdrawn

I think its a good idea. There was a poster at IMFAR saying that showing severely & moderately autistic children videos of someone modelling a task they were going to be asked to do speeded up learning. I think there's a book about using video in this way to teach.

Not sure if you'll get people to agree though. No siblings or cousins?

I have no experience of the issues you are dealing with, but if you were my friend I would be absolutely fine about you asking. I personally can't see why anyone might have an issue with it, as long as the child being filmed didn't mind.

yes here the poster was by the author.

I am concerned about what you call the cold shower technique when he poos.

Although he's still young and sounds like he's doing well- especially for a child with GDD- I think if you keep taking him he'll 'get it' as well. I'm a bit concerned by the cold shower technique as well on re-reading - what is it?

presumably the cold shower technique would be using cold water when washing her DS down after a poo accident? I assumed "I even tried" meant that it's not something the OP is doing anymore.

Could you take photos of your Ds1 using the toilet and then use them to make a story where you add in the bit about him asking? You could even film him when you have put him on the toilet and and join it up with a film of him playing or something and show it to him as a silent movie then talk over it about him asking (even though he didn't). That way you wouldn't have to ask anyone else's children to participate and he might be more interested in seeing himself.

I have to say though it may just be a case of sitting him regularly and reading body language as you are doing and gradually he will get the idea. We took Ds2 out of nappies a year ago (he is now nearly 7). He is now reliably dry but I still generally take him to the toilet every few hours rather than leaving him to ask. It's not really any hassle. If I forget then he does come and ask now. He is less reliable with his bowels. To start with he pooed in his pants pretty much every time. Like you I have got good at the body language and predicting likely times and now we often make it to the toilet. Then he gets loads of praise and emphasis about doing it on the toilet and especially about telling us (if he did). Gradually he is starting to tell me when he wants a poo. Not all the time, but maybe 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 times. It's a slow process, but we are getting there, and I think it may be similar for you. Your Ds1 is still relatively young in special needs toilet training terms!

It is a good idea and I'd be fine about a friends child using mine as a role model but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable about the filming and I would feel awkward if one of my friends asked me. Obviously you have very sound reasons for it but I would be concerned about the video getting into the wrong hands.

Manxmum: AMAM uses (or used to use) aversive therapy with her son where he would be put in the shower if he did something he wasn't supposed to do, to make a link between the behaviour being bad and a bad consequence for the child, presumably.

Thank you all for taking time to answer.
I feel slightly relieved to read that some of you don't think it is such a bad idea.

I told DH that if a good friend asked me for a favour like this I would have no problem at all. However, after reading your posts I have decided not to do it. Seuss and others would have concerns about it so I don't want to put my friends through the difficult situation of having to say no to my request.

Cold shower technique: Basically when he has a poo in his pants I always take him to the bath and use the shower head to clean out any traces (sorry for being so explicit). So what I did a couple of times is use cold water instead of warm water (on his bum only). The idea was that he would not enjoy having to be cleaned and would realise that is it much better to do his poos in the toilet.

wannaBe: I have considered what you say, and you might be right. But then when he is about to have a poo, he looks at me with a very particular face and his body language really shows that he is about to do something. So that makes me think that he knows what he is about to do.

Saker, I have thought about photos, and I guess I might try that now, but I really thought that seeing other children request the toilet would be more productive.

Social story could work. I saw one yesterday which even had a large photo of toilet contents (after someone has been, before flushing).

If you want videos, have you tried searching YouTube?

Hi nannynick.
I have looked at YouTube but haven't found anything suitable. I need to find something where the child explicitely asks an adult for the toilet, because that is the bit that DS is not doing.

Regarding social stories, thanks for suggesting, definitely sounds like a good idea. I have never used them. Where can I find them?

I agree with your dh, I'm afraid. - unless you film them with their pants round their ankles, you run the risk of him sitting on the loo, fully dressed, and going into his pants! He'll recreate it exactly as he sees it. I don't think the parents would be happy to have their kids filmed with their pants down, do you?

I'd suggest maybe pictures instead of filming. - perhaps there is a cartoon character he likes a lot, you could draw in that situation? Or social stories, like others have said (they are very simple to write and you'd have pics too)

As soon as I logged off last night (pardon the pun) I realised I accidentally implied you'd let all and sundry get hold of the video. I know you wouldn't but I was just concerned incase it got stolen or older children got hold of it. To be honest if a friend asked me I probably would say yes but I would have the concerns I mentioned and it would be awkward.

My DS was 3.5 when it suddenly clicked too. It was also once he'd started nursery - as soon as we got to the Christmas holidays he suddenly just started taking himself off to the toilet or saying 'poo poo'.(Not v. verbal at that point.) He used to wear pull-ups to nursery because it was quite easy to guess when needed to go at home. At nursery he used to sneak off to the Wendy house for one!

Hi - you've probably got enough ideas by now but I'm not sure about videoing - (1) Everyone here understands why you want to do it but an interfering busybody type might misinterpret your motives and cause problems. (2) If you involve your friends, they may start to ask more often if you are having any success - cue 'Gosh not toilet trained yet' remarks.

Everything you have said about your DS suggests that is he 90% of the way there, he has all the pieces of the jigsaw or mosaic and no glue other than time will put them all together. This next bit isn't meant to sound critical of you but possibly you are transmitting some of your anxiety to him and it may be that you are trying too many different approaches hoping that something will work. Decide on one approach and just keep doing it and doing it. I don't want to make you feel jealous but I was feeling down about this issue about a week ago and this morning DS1 came skipping down the stairs saying 'toilet toilet' and took himself in for a wee. I really felt as if EBay had shipped in another child over night !

HI Guys, thanks for your honest answers. I have taken them all on board.

As I've said, I have decided NOT to ask my friends for help. But I would definitely do it for a close friend in my situation. DH says I am too naive.

cyber: maybe I am transmitting my anxiety on to DS. When I take him to the toilet I always take him smiling and happy, when he produces (which is always) I give him huge praise, he loves flushing the toilet, give him chocolate. When he does a pee or poo in his pants I don't scream, shout or anything of the sort. I am not sure how to chill out any more than that.

I would really like to try the social stories, so if anyone can point out to me how to get hold of them, many thanks!

PS: What I started doing this morning is asking DS to take me to the toilet. Maybe that will help.

PS: DH said: What a lovely group of ladies to take the time to answer! I think he never really understood why I bother with mumsnet until now.