Question for people with children with an ASD diagnosis.

[yurt1]

Hi I wonder if you can help me out. I've come across the following quote by Simon Baron-Cohen (in the book Mindblindness pge 69) and I wondered whether you could tell me how true it is for your child.

Don't worry too much about what SAM is - I'm just interested in whether your child points things out to you. (or shows you things). DS1 for example doesn't point that well with an index finger but he's always showing me things that interest him (open windows, certain people in the street, the moon - he's dragged me out to the garden just to show me the moon before, washing machines on TV, he's also grabbed me from another room to show me when his favourite bridge was on TV). I'm wondering whether ds1 is really odd with this, or whether other autistic children share their interests as well. I;m not that interested from a ds1 point of view, but I am interested as I'm starting to theorise a bit.

Anyway the quote:

?In most children with autism, SAM does not appear to be working through any modality ? vision, touch or audition. By and large, they bring an object over to someone, or point an object out, or lead someone to an object and place the person?s hand on it, only when they want the person top operate that object or to get it for them. This is not shared attention in any sense; these behaviours are primarily instrumental, and do not indicate a desire to share interest with another person for its own sake?

This would apply more to ds3 and slightly to ds2. I can not remember about ds1 much, but he had alot of repetitive behaviour and obsessional behaviour.
Ds3 has a dagnosis of autism and never points out anything to me, very rarely he will bring me something, but it is always instrumental. He never shows me anything that interests him.
Ds2 will point out things to me, as long as it fits in with his current obsession, at the moment it is trees and types of trees, etc.
My 15 month old ds, points out everything all the time, nt children are exhausting like that aren't they?
Sorry to be dense, but what is 'SAM'?

My DS can be over obsessive about sharing an interest at times. If he hears a train going by he will come running to one of us to announce 'Tain doing dy' and we have to agree ' 'Yes train going by' or he will keep saying it. But he would not show me something for the sake of showing me something - to get a social reaction. The train thing might just be a ritual but he is desperate for us to join in with it. Like Deeja's son, he will also point out obsessively what he is interested in but not like my NT 15 month old who points primarily to get social attention - and he loves it !

When he was a toddler ds1 didn't generally bring things to me. He used to pull me to the fridge when he wanted milk but that was about it. He shows me things now, mainly wanting to share something he's doing on the PS2. Now that I think about it, he doesn't really do much in the way of pointing things out.

Ds2 used to bring me objects but not really to share. He would pick up a toy, dump it in my lap, and then run off. Eventually I would have a whole pile of toys in my lap but ds2 had no interest in them. Now that he's older he points things out, although usually with his middle finger. He brings me things to show me and share with him. Lots of "Look what I got, Mum."

DS1 would fit that quote i think- I never really know what he's interested in and not, tbh. DS3 would often fit it- he points a bit (using his middle finger) and will bring you something but really mostly if thre's areason- eg to read the Tomniboo nook again. Sometimes he points though, he's not that bothered about what he ought to do fit anybodies classifications LOL

Mind you, APed is now reviewling his DX again as apaprently ASD kids can't make eye contact ever or have any SOH- despite ds3's being exactly like yours Yurt in that respect- I wish they'd bloody amke up their minds (but know in my mind that he is ASD and have just chosen to Move On)

My ASD son fits the Baron-Cohen quote exactly - he does not share his interests, we have had to teach him painstakingly to point, and he still only does it rarely and prompted, plus he mostly still won't follow my pointing finger. At 3, he would use my hand as an instrument or tool to get things, as if I were a machine. He feels no need to share attention, and we have to push to get him to concentrate on anything other than his own agenda.

Well my Ds ASD 2.10 does not understand the concept of pointing. He has spontaneously asked me to draw with him or play with him for things that didn't require my help to operate although he hasn't done that very often and not for a while.

my daughter also fits the baron description. I remember when when we first started out with all the proffessionals, as you do! The ed psy saying, 'lil lady uses people as a means to getting something she wants, not as a interaction'. She dosn't point, but will take me to what she wants, if its beyond her reach - although that dosn't happen much as she is very much a climber!

Deeja, i think Sam must be the child he is refering to?

The only way I have got my DS to point properly is by offering him two types of cornetto each night after tea, one of which I know is one he wants. That way he points at the one he wants. The only way I got him to follow my point was my knowing what he was about to look at and pointing at it a split second before, saying "look", so he sort of gets the idea to follow the pointing finger. But it doesn't work on things he's not interested in - he just doesn't make the associative leap between a pointing finger, and the thing that it is pointing at (I guess because pointing is an imaginative and a social gesture and therefore his autism gets in the way). One article I read said that lack of protodeclarative pointing (eg "look at that plane, mummy") is one of the first indicators of autism! Interesting topic, Yurt!

My DS loves showing me planes by pointing and helicopters too but that is because of obsessive interest. It is interesting though because he is definitely ASD but an HV from the CDC did not believe me when I told her he points for shared attention even if only at certain things. She had a sort of 'dear dear mother in denial' look

Peachy "Mind you, APed is now reviewling his DX again as apaprently ASD kids can't make eye contact ever or have any SOH- despite ds3's being exactly like yours Yurt in that respect- I wish they'd bloody amke up their minds"... I am bemused,confused by the whole dx process already, but what does the Paed mean? ... will he be thinking of dxing something else?

yurt1 - I would say my ds is a non-pointer, he is nearly 4, not dx'd yet, "asd traits" is all I have to go on from consultant Paed.

Sorry I've been a bit confusing.

SAM is a shared attention mechanism- so SBC is saying that children with autism have problems with shared attention (with which I agree) and that one sign is that most never show someone something that interests them, which really isn't true in this house.

I'm wondering about the most and never.

The pointing bit doesn;t worry me- but you see moira I would say your son is sharing things that interest him. Even though he may not be then socially engaging with you afterwards. He's still sharing something that he finds interesting (rather than just to get you to give him something). My son did exactly the same with planes when he was 2 (although he didn't point, he would look at the plane, look at me saying eehee (his word for plane then) then look back at the plane- which is sharing interest - and for that reason we were told he wasn't autistic (although he was/is and severely so)

Peachy your paed is mad- neither eye contact nor SOH is part of the diagnosis - & I'm about to start a study on teasing by severely autistic kids, so the SOH thing is a real red herring. There are also papers written about children with autism using eye gaze very well.

OK so so far moira's ds (from her description) does share things that interest him. My ds1 does and Starey eyed's does sometimes as well.

Now if it's not too personal I would also be interested to know vaguely where on the spectrum you would place your child. so HFA/AS, moderate or severe. Ignore that if it is too personal.

Sorry I'm musing.

My DS got a diagnosis of moderate to severe, but it is tricky because I think he is slightly different on each area of the triad, eg he is pretty HF on the bit about obsessive or repetitive interests, but he is LF on speech and social communication. I think I would plump for moderate, Yurt. And agree with you that Peachy's paed is an ignorant so-and-so - the whole point about autism is that there ARE no absolutes, as all the kids are as different from each other as my NF DD is from her classmates. It's a spectrum disorder and anyone with the title paed ought not to make sweeping statements like that. My DS has very few words, but he manages to make jokes - ok, so it's pretty much the same joke each day, but it's deffo a joke (he asks to go swimming or on the trampoline when he knows very well it's bedtime and that he can't really go. We laugh at it every night!)

the quote would in a way apply to dd1. She is always bringing me things - box of toys to open, etc, but she then sits down and chatters to me about what is in the box. so she "uses" me for her own purpose, but she then shares the toy with me.

THe same with books. She is not a great pointer, but can indicate with her whole hand, and is beginning to poin twith her index finger for close up situations (eg pointing to a specific part f a picture). So she will fetch a book, and pester me to read it to her .again, she is using me to read the story, but she doesn't actually need me - she knows the story off by heart, and can turn the pages herself (indeed does, if I am only half heartedly reading, or trying to skip bits out), so it is the sharing of the story that she enjoys.

She does use me a lot to help her with toys, but it is more as a way of getting my attention, and keeping it, than because she needs help. Eg she is keen on puzzles and shape sorters. she can correctly place all the shapes in the correct holes, but will fiddle about for a bit, then take my hand to help her if she suspects I am about to walk away (or play with dd2).

So, in many ways she is the opposite of the quote - it doesn't matter to her what she is bringing/pointing out/wanting me to get, as long as she has my attention. More recently, it has been the social attention she wants, not what she is making me do for her.

oooh middleagedmum that's EXACTLY the type of thing (pretending to ask for the trampoline or swimming when he knows he can't have it) my next research project is on (just going through ethics). If you want to take part let me know!

Yes silverfrog- I would call that sharing an interest.

Very interesting.

ooh ,yurt, if that kind of teasing is what you are after, then dd1 is your girl. she has whole routines that crack her up - asking for food that she knows she isn't going to get, saying "upstairs! Not yet! then giggling away because it isn't bedtime...

She told me last week there was a hen upstairs. I told her we didn't have a hen. She laughed, and told me there was a goat upstairs.

She is a total oon at times, but very funny with it.

that would be a total loon...

Tom has only started doing it fairly recently and he hardly ever points at something but, yes, he'll now occasionally tell us what he can see. It gives us a better insight into his interests. Eg yesterday he got off the bus from school and said "Number 15 and number 14". If you show him a photo he'll say what he can see on it ("keyboard a blue a chair"). He likes to popint out numbers and colours espcially and sometimes gets upset if I don't repeat back the things to him.

I'd place him as moderate by the way.

Yes we have to repeat stuff back as well. But NT kids do that as well when their speech isn't clear, ds3 still makes me repeat stuff back to him to show I've understood exactly which words he's used.

Brilliant silverfrog. Once I've got ethical approval I'll say more about the project.

my ds is sitting with a studio ghibli pull out as I type, pointing to each picture and saying what it is, a few minutes ago he was pointing at each picture (from one of the films) and saying what is that? (which means I have to ask him "what is that?") so he can tell me what it is... when he got to one he didn't know, he showed it to his sister and asked her what is that? and pointed to the one he didn't know, so she could tell him.

my ds is very keen to interact and communicate and a lot of the time he just doesn't know how.... social and language problems seem to be quite an issue for him, plus he has some sensory issues, which I phoned my SALT to see if we can get OT for

Yurt when I know where ds is on the spectrum I will let you know.... we should know soon enough, in some ways I think/hope he is hfa, but that is when he is in a good phase.

good thread

when I say my ds is not a pointer, I know he can point he just points so rarely I feel like it is false to say he does.

I think problems with pointing are very common. DS1 shares attention all the time, although usually with an outstretched hand or by borrowing my hand. But he still shares his interests- just in a different way. Elsewhere in the same book SBC says that autistic children rarely show others things that interest them (not just via pointing) and I don't really think that applies to ds1.

aefondkiss/ yurt- yes she is mad, I've been treating her and a DX like some oracle but have finally cttoned on that dx'ing then xchnaging your mined twice is just batty behaviour and its time to just go with the SALT who assessed him 10 times in 3 settings (ASD0 and bibic (ASD)- she's clearly not up to date with it all so can't be arsed with tehs tress of it frankly. He IS ASD, he was ASD in january when she alst saw him and i don't think she has a cure yet.....

I shake my head in despair at your paed Peachy, it just reinforces what a lottery it is, the kind of care and support we can all expect, it alos makes me at the unfairness of the system.

same with DS2.He does shared attention ( as far as I understand it) He tells me things that are making him laugh and he asks what i am doing a lot. He does show me things and talk about things that he can see or things he likes.
He also has excellent and sustained eye contact with family and friends now and improving eye contact with 'strangers'.