Question for people with children with an ASD diagnosis.

[yurt1]

Hi I wonder if you can help me out. I've come across the following quote by Simon Baron-Cohen (in the book Mindblindness pge 69) and I wondered whether you could tell me how true it is for your child.

Don't worry too much about what SAM is - I'm just interested in whether your child points things out to you. (or shows you things). DS1 for example doesn't point that well with an index finger but he's always showing me things that interest him (open windows, certain people in the street, the moon - he's dragged me out to the garden just to show me the moon before, washing machines on TV, he's also grabbed me from another room to show me when his favourite bridge was on TV). I'm wondering whether ds1 is really odd with this, or whether other autistic children share their interests as well. I;m not that interested from a ds1 point of view, but I am interested as I'm starting to theorise a bit.

Anyway the quote:

?In most children with autism, SAM does not appear to be working through any modality ? vision, touch or audition. By and large, they bring an object over to someone, or point an object out, or lead someone to an object and place the person?s hand on it, only when they want the person top operate that object or to get it for them. This is not shared attention in any sense; these behaviours are primarily instrumental, and do not indicate a desire to share interest with another person for its own sake?

Hi Yurt1,

This is very interesting. My DS was finally diagnosed with "mild ASD" in January aged 6. Whilst he has all the stereotypical social interaction problems/need for routine he has never displayed any lack of attention sharing.

From 12 months old he was pointing, and has continued since then actively sharing things that interest him.

Incidently, this ability to share caused us considerable problems getting a DX - the CAHMS psych seemed to place a lot of weight upon this.

DCT

Thanks all. DS1 definitely shows 'joint attention deficits', especially in adult directed attention. But he's just very happy and keen to show me what he likes and what interests him! How sweet that he tells you what makes him laugh pagwatch!

I'd heard of NT children wanting people to repeat things back to make sure they're understood, but Ds1 wants us to repeat things back for two reasons. First, if he's doign something familiar and routine (for example he likes to count the house numbers on our street) he'll often want me to repeat the number back after him. I'd say this is his way of sharing his interests. The other time is when he'll say what the other person's reaction to something would be and then you have to say that, so he can say what he needs to say. Eg today a girl in his class has had a birthday party and he said to me "How old is E?". He didn't want me to tell him, he knew already (they'd counted the candles ). So I had to ask him "How old is E?" and he could then reply "5!"

aww that's sweet. I guess ds1 does the same thing sometimes- there are specific phrases he likes me to say - sometimes because he thinks they're funny. Like the word 'broken'. He points at something says 'ayan' I have to say 'broken' then he falls to the floor laughing his leg off!

Yes we have to dot hat with ds3- yesterdayhe was all upset as they wore PJ's tos chool, and I had to keepr epeating 'it's wrong to wear pyjamas tos chool' in response to his 'wrong'

He made his first joke a couple of weeks ago. There is a line in a little Miss book where she calls someone pudding face.
He got one of his soya pudding and put it against his cheek and said "xxx is pudding face mummy" and then fell about laughing .

Its clearly the way he tells them

This pointing thing is interesting, it probably delayed me realising DS1 was ASD as he could point for shared attention. When he was about 20 months someone in M+S thought he must be very bright because he could point out , when asked, all the different types of cats and dogs (siamese, burmese, tabby etc)

I'm a bit late to this (been watching 'The Borrowers' with DS1 and popcorn) but for what it's worth:

DS2 (severe ASD) doesn't point to share attention at all - the only time he points spontaneously is to indicate which episode of Thomas he wants on the DVD or which clip of Thomas he wants on the computer, when he can point precisely. The idea of pointing to share attention has clearly never occurred to him - atm we are trying to teach it through ABA, by showing him a book and saying 'point to X' (something we KNOW he knows and likes, like ice cream) and then modelling 'Look! Ice cream!' He just puts his whole hand on it. So we say 'show me pointing' and he waves his index finger in the air. Then we repeat 'point to ice cream' and he puts his whole hand down again. It's getting better slowly - but less spontaneous than that would be hard to imagine! He also never brings me anything just to show it - only if he wants me to do something with the object, like open a packet or put on a video.

However (before I really depress myself) he has excellent eye contact, is pretty socially related and has a great SOH. He does the teasing thing a little bit - for example, giving me his hand to hold in the street and then pulling it away and saying 'Hands! hands! grinning all the time.

This is all really interesting.
I don't know whether my ds is high-functioning or low functioning. I think he is high-functioning because he is verbal, but I don't know if that is the correct way to differentiate.
Does the ADOS score have any bearing?
Cognitive ability?
How do you determine whether you dc is high-functioning or low-functioning?
I hate these terms, by the way!

sphil- the pointing is the least important I think - if kiddies have visual perception problems (as many do) they may not necessarily point because of that. He gets you to play games with him all the time though doesn't he?

deeeja - for the purposes of my work (which is focussing on severe end of the spectrum) I've tended to use a CARS rating of 37+ - which is quite rough and ready.

When distinguishing between functioning using speech I tend to use 'low communicating'. I'm not keen on low functioning either, although I think HFA is fine - and better than 'mild autism' (which I know pisses many off!)

Officially I think low functioning means an IQ score of below 80. HFA above that.

severely autistic CARS 37+. mild/moderate below that.

DS1, 4.3, has pointed to stuff in books that interests him if I ask him since he was about 18 months, but not in any other context. Now he's 4, he does bring me stuff to show me and shoves it right in my face, but doesn't check that I've registered it. It's like a a learnt behaviour that he doesn't really understand. For about a year, he's pointed vaguely if he's wanted something but been unable to clarify. He's more likely to help himself and always has been and generally, I have to ask him to share something he seems to be delighting in.

DS2 is 22 months and not diagnosed, but going through the process. Until a year old, he pointed vaguely into the air if he heard something that interested him that he couldn't see. Now he doesn't point at all. He has no language or alternative gestures and does do a lot of the dragging and hand placing. He puts my hand on toys he wants switching on or books he wants to see and when he wants to nurse, puts my hand on his favourite seat for nursing in. If he wants some food to pull apart and throw on the floor (or maybe he's hungry enough to actually eat!!!) he'll put my hand on his high chair and if he can't rip his shoes and socks off fast enough, he'll put my hand on his feet!

Peachy, your paed makes me so glad we have ours. She's pretty fabulous!

Yurt, I'll just add that I can't really comment about DS2, since he's so young, but I regard DS1 as high functioning for the most part. He's highly intelligent, his language is functional if somewhat odd (though his understanding is still limited in some ways) and his biggest hurdles to daily life are mostly behavioural. He's extremely hyperactive and so oppositional I want to scream, sometimes. And just to contradict Peachy's paed, he makes that sort of eye contact that gets him what he wants. He does the thing of looking you in the eye from far closer than is comfortable for far longer than you can deal with, too, unless he's in trouble, then he stares about 4 inches to the right of you. He also has a wicked sense of humour and an absolutely delightful sense of the bizarre.

This doesn't sound like my DS at all - the more language he develops, the more he shares his interests, especially since he learned how to ask questions a few months back. But even before he could talk, he was sharing his interests. He had some touchy-feely books with textures (That's Not My Train and so on) and he used to take an adult's hand and place it on the book, not to ask for anything, but so they could feel the texture too.

ds2 has never pointed things out but very recently has started bringing things & showing us things he has done.
He certainly never pointed or took our hand or dragged us to look at anything.
I don't think he has ever had the desire to share an interest in objects or things.
Although he has always been very easy to engage with humour & has always loved to torment & be tormented & loves the shared interaction that goes with it.
He never expressed any needs at all, until his language improved & he was able to verbalise.
He is still very poor with choice if you hold two objects & ask him to choose you have to be prepared for a very long wait.

THanks all. Well one of ds1's autistic bus chums showed me something this morning which smiled at

Hello

My 3 yr old ASD DS defintely wants to share his interests (mainly the TV!). He never points but is always fetching us to show us what he has seen. He has limited language so will name it (e.g., 'Bob' for Bob the Builder)or sign for it (e.g., animal or a train. He even invents signs for things he likes (e.g., Makka Pakka!)and always persists until we interpret the sign correctly and say/sign it back. He always makes great eye contact when he wants to share something he likes.

This is not just 'operational', he wants our response and I believe this is real social interaction.

Hope this helps x

Today my 3 year old ds sat in my lap and asked for a squash, and then looked me in the eye and giggled, and said squash, and laughed again!
I have started squeezing him to see if it helps him to calm down, he likes it anyway, and doesn't normally like hugs.
He is such a sweety

Yurt, I'd be delighted to join in your research, as my DS's jokes are very interesting, showing some kind of social sense. He also uses Silverfrog's upstairs one , eg asking to go upstairs when we are in Starbucks or out in town!

Fab