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How obvious is your DCs ASD/AS to others ?

52 replies

TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 21:56

Bit of a strange question, sorry if inappropriate.

DS (4.3) is going through assessments at the CDC - I have bored you all with this previously.

I have suspected ASD/AS since he was very small.

Friends and family members are convinced there is nothing to be diagnosed.

I am beginning to wonder if I have made a big song and dance over typical little boy behaviour.

He seems to be improving/changing, but surely children with ASD/AS change as they grow up, don't they ?

Would your DC's Autism/Aspergers be obvious to friends, aquaintances, strangers even ?

If so, in what way ?

I am aware that the autistic spectrum is vast so it's a bit of a daft question, but I suppose I am asking if it is possible for a child to have ASD/AS and for it not to 'show' ?

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twocutedarlings · 01/03/2008 22:24

DDs (5) AS is only obvious to people that know her really well, but this is only recently. The differances have got more noticable as her peers have grown out of toddle tantrums ect.

The thing its all so easy for people to say there is nothing wrong, but obviously they dont spend time with your DS like you do. I bet i drives you round the bend when they say this.

Do your family and friends who have said this to you, spend much time with your DS ? or other children in his age group.

sphil · 01/03/2008 22:41

DS2 is severely autistic but it wasn't immediately obvious up until the age of about 4 - probably because he's always been very placid, confounding the stereotypical view of an autistic child. However, it has become more obvious since then, as the gap between him and his peers has become more noticeable. Also his stimming seems more unusual now - I guess plenty of 3 and 4 year olds make unusual noises and movements but not so many 5 and 6 year olds.

My friend's daughter has AS and I honestly wouldn't have known unless she'd told me (and I have very sensitive autistic antennae )

TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 22:41

With family it's a bit of a weird one.

My parents have spent loads of time with him since birth and would agree that he is very hard work, highly strung, etc, but think there is nothing 'wrong' as such. They are very supportive however.

Don't know if i'm being out of order saying this, but I am one of four. If DS is diagnosed AS then I would say that it is quite likely that myself, my older bro and my younger sis could be too. I wonder if this is why my parents can't/won't see it ?

Friends are being kind and are trying to be supportive of course. They just say things like "My DS is the same" or "They're all different tho, aren't they"

They are all different tho. Is it obvious when a child has AS rather than has an aversion to other children, dislikes changes, is so very controlling, hits screams when he can't handle what's being thrown at him (not literally thrown, tho tempting ).

Sigh...

Thanks for your reply twocutedarlings.

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TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 22:44

Oh, that's interesting about your friends DD.

'How' is she AS, IYKWIM ?

I think this is what i'm getting at actually.

What makes it AS (especially mild AS) ?

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Blossomhill · 01/03/2008 22:48

I would say my dd's asd is quite obvious and has become more so as she has got older. She actually has As but the adhd probably doesn't help!

TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 22:49

For example:

I am a student and because of DS's assessments I have had to miss 5 weeks of one of my subjects.

I know the teacher quite well so was happy to tell her what he was being assessed for.

She told me that her DS has AS. Was diagnosed just before he went to University. She said it explained a lot about the way he was when he was a child, tantrums and difficult behaviour, etc.

So it must be easy to miss sometimes ?

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TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 22:51

Blossomhill - may I ask in what way your DD's AS is obvious ?

How old is she ?

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sphil · 01/03/2008 22:53

She's 9 now but when she was 5 my friend says she was very resistant to change, had lots of tantrums and sensory problems. Her sleep was very disrupted too. All these things have improved hugely since she has got older. Her much older brother was similar but wasn't diagnosed until he was in his teens. It was only this that made my friend seek a dx for her daughter.

daisy5678 · 01/03/2008 23:03

My J has been erm 'unusual' since he was 2 - or more noticably so, though the signs were there before.

The problems are obvious at school, where J is more stressed/ anxious - very very violent and oppositional/ controlling - lots of meltdowns. Also VERY VERY hyper and poor concentration. But those can also be hallmarks of poor diet or parenting, so I know that many parents in the playground steer clear because they assume that I must be the mother from hell, because J is so well known for his 'issues' and he doesn't fit in with the Rainman stereotype!

BUT BUT BUT, even though J was statemented from the age of 3, it was initially for unspecified EBD and then for ADHD as well. So the autism itself wasn't obvious, or, rather, was masked by the ADHD and good verbal skills.

At home, is is often unnoticable for a visitor, especially when he is relaxed. His social worker and outreach worker both described him as quirky when they first met him, but were surprised by how autistically he scored on the ADOS test Nearly full marks). His psych says the surface sociability and good intelligence/ language skills are what mask it BUT that his social defecits are severe - hence the full time support at school and the friendship problems.

My (less close - the really close ones have seen J in full meltdown) friends will sometimes say 'but all children...' and 'well, all boys do that' and I suppose the point is that MOST children will not do so many odd things for such a high proportion of the time! Rainman stereotype again - ohhh but he's so cute and funny.

He is. And sometimes, he appears to be like any other 6 year old. Not often, but sometimes.

Even my family, who know him well, took a long time to be convinced by the autism (though we'd all the guessed the ADHD bit!). I took the ADOS report and the DSM-IV criteria for them and highlighted why the psychiatrists were saying autism. We got there.

At the end of the daym you know him best. You know that assessment is the way to find the answers, so don't worry if not everyone is convinced yet. An official dx report may help some accept it. As for the others - well, as long as school/ nursery accept it, don't worry if others take a while.

In answer to your initial question, I believe that it is perfectly possible for autism to go unnoticed, certainly by laypeople or acquaintances.

J was seen by THREE educational psychologists, a paediatrician and a psychiatrist (an expert in autism) when being assessed for his statement and for ADHD. Not ONE of these expert professionals spotted the autism or even mentioned the possibility. It took a very observant psychistrist (a new one) to mention the possibility to me. So we saw 5 people who should have spotted it but didn't! So of course people will find it hard to spot high functioning autism or AS.

Below is the copy of what I gave to my family and friends who questioned or were confused by the dx because 'J isn't quiet and aloof and cut off from the world' . Hope it's useful:

Autism and what it means for xx.

The criteria below is from The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)which is a handbook for mental health professionals that lists different categories of mental disorders and the criteria for diagnosing them, according to the publishing organization the American Psychiatric Association. It is used worldwide by clinicians and researchers as well as insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and policy makers. The writing in brackets describes why the two psychiatrists who have assessed and diagnosed xx have concluded that he has autism. Most of the information they used came from the ADOS test (Autistic Diagnostic Observation Schedule) that is used worldwide to test for autism. It involved an hour where the psychiatrist talked to xx and played games with him to look at his behaviour, social skills and conversation skills. The test is scored out of 22 and the cut off for mild autism is 7. The cut off for autism is 12. xx scored 20, putting him well into the autistic range, and they explained their reasoning with reference to the things described below. Some information that they used came from discussion with me about his early years and development.
Criteria for a diagnosis of autism:

?I) A total of six (or more) items from (A), (B), and (C), with at least two from (A), and one each from (B) and (C)
(A) qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

  1. marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviours such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction

(xx does make eye-contact, but it is often only fleeting and is always on his own terms ? he often will not look at a person if they are speaking to him, and will only sometimes look at someone when he speaks to them. His facial expressions are often over-exaggerated or inappropriate e.g. smiling when someone is hurt or looking over-the-top when cross)

  1. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level

(xx has always had trouble with children his own age, finding it very difficult to play with them rather than bossing them about. He finds it very hard to make friends as he just wants to control them. He still finds it impossible to share with others.)

  1. a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people, (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)

(I don?t think he really meets this criteria, but the psychiatrist who did the ADOS test said that he didn?t share enjoyment when playing games with her, but just seemed rather flat about playing the game.)

  1. lack of social or emotional reciprocity

(This is about ?give and take? with another person, so being able to compromise and react to other people?s emotions properly. It was felt that xx is very often only interested in his own needs and wants and so fails to react to others? needs. It was also noted that xx finds it hard to read other people?s emotions unless they are doing something obvious like crying or shouting or laughing. Therefore he can?t tell when he is boring people or annoying people, and so will keep doing what he wants e.g. talking about one topic for far too long, or keep taking their belongings away, as he is focused on himself and not other people.)

(B) qualitative impairments in communication as manifested by at least one of the following:

  1. delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime)

(this doesn?t really apply to xx, although people found it hard to understand his pronunciation when he was younger)

  1. in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others

(xx is able to start a conversation with others, but talks at rather than with people, about topics that he wants to talk about. He does not pick up on normal conversational rules e.g. in the ADOS test, the psychiatrist said to him ?I went on holiday last summer?. She would have expected him to say ?where did you go?? and ask questions about it, but xx just said ?Oh. I go on holiday? and did not ask her questions or develop the conversation further. )

  1. stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language

(It was noted that xx?s language and vocabulary are excellent, but are apparently unusual as he uses very adult words and phrases, a lot of which are copied from parents, teachers, TV, films or books. This is called delayed echolalia (or echoing ? repeating back things he has heard). He will also echo adults when he likes the sound of what they have said. He also uses made-up words sometimes and doesn?t always understand the rules of language e.g. he will talk in a teacher voice to children at school to tell them off. He will also find it hard to instinctively know the right thing to say in certain situations and so has to learn rules/ manners by heart, like learning times tables, rather than knowing what to say. E.g. in the ADOS test, he banged the table against the psychiatrist?s leg by accident. She said that it hurt; he said ?thank you?, when what he meant was ?sorry?. He knew that he was supposed to say something, but forgot what.

  1. lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level

(xx would play with certain toys when he was little, but usually fixated on one or two toys and would only play with them. He has never really made up games or stories; most of his play has been copying e.g. cleaning/ cooking. At nursery, his behaviour was commented on as he spent most of his time moving furniture around and didn?t really want to play with anything)

(C) restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour, interests and activities, as manifested by at least two of the following:

  1. encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus

(this is the only category that I initially thought that xx had problems with. This bit related to the obsessions that he has had ever since he could crawl ? with plug sockets, light switches and buttons. He will play with these wherever we are ? at Sainsbury?s, he even tries to go behind the tills to play with the buttons. He also has obsessions with watching the same musicals over and over again e.g. Annie, Oliver and with CDs, at the moment, as well as planning for his birthday party, which was all he talked about for most of the month of January! We say ?obsession? because often they are all he can think or talk about.)

  1. apparently inflexible adherence to specific, non-functional routines or rituals

(This is about only wanting to do things in a certain way. In xx?s case, this way is his way! For example, he only likes to take the same routes when we drive somewhere, and will have set routines that he will get upset about if they are not followed. E.g. if we don?t buy his magazine on Tuesdays, he can get very upset. If someone moves his book at school, he will have a tantrum. He will only sit in a certain seat on the sofa. He gets cross if he is not warned about something new or different happening at school. Whenever we go to the hospital, he will move furniture round the room, turn the lights on and off and will open the window. Whenever we go to my parents?, he wants to move the furniture and do a ?show?. He gets very upset if we try to change these routines.)

  1. stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)

(He doesn?t do this now, but used to twist his hands as a baby.)

  1. persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

(This relates back again to the obsession with buttons and switches.)

(II) Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years:
(A) social interaction
(B) language as used in social communication
(C) symbolic or imaginative play

(A and C are the only ones that really apply before 3 years.)

The DSM further states that: ?Individuals with Autistic Disorder may have a range of behavioral symptoms, including hyperactivity, short attention span, impassivity, aggressiveness, self-injurious behaviors, and, particularly in young children, temper tantrums. They may want to be in control of other people to reduce the anxiety that they feel about a world which seems strange to them.?

(xx has displayed all of these symptoms for a very long time, and because these are not accounted for by poor parenting, diet or learning difficulties, it was decided that these were part of his autistic symptoms.)

TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 23:03

Thanks sphil.

Sensory probs are one thing I have never been able to work out properly with DS.

He used to hate any toys that made a sound, even music.

Hated anything with a motor (hairdrier, hoover, etc), still covers his ears sometimes, but isn't that bothered.

Only real issue at the moment is some smells. He hates soap and shampoo. He heaves as tho he is going to be sick when he smells them. He is fine with other smells tho. Never complains about smells that would bother me (like going into the loo after DH , sorry TMI).

If I said this to friends tho, they would be able to give me a list of things that their DCs don't like sensory-wise...

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twocutedarlings · 01/03/2008 23:06

It was really difficult to get the social thing with DD when she was younger. I just thought that she was happy with her own company tbh.

However as she gets older its alot more noticable, she has actually has improved quite dramitacly recently. She will now show an iterest in other children for a short time. At one piont she would actually gringe if another child got to close.

Conversations with DD are extremley one sided and she will only really talks at you rather than with you.

She manages quite well with changes to her routine at home, but at school it a completely differant story. Any change to her routine leads to her more or less climbing the walls tbh.

Do you much longer to wait for your DSs assessment ?

Hope this helps xx

daisy5678 · 01/03/2008 23:06

Wow - too long - sorry

Just had to mention the most 'obvious to everyone that J was not NT' incident:

lying down in the middle of a busy dual carriagway because he'd wanted to press the button at the traffic lights, followed by a full on meltdown in the nearby shop that I'd dragged him to, culminating in him taking all his clothes off.

Fabulous.

oops · 01/03/2008 23:12

Message withdrawn

twocutedarlings · 01/03/2008 23:16

Same here with the hoover Theodoresmummy, DD goes hysterical with the hoover. Its that bad at the moment that i cannot vacum when she in (not very pleasent in the school hols LOL).

She also has to smell most things (including her classmate ), but i think that she actually likes doing this as it doesnt seem to bother her.

oops · 01/03/2008 23:21

Message withdrawn

TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 23:26

givemesleep - thank you very much, that's very interesting.

I have seen the criteria bits before, but makes more sense with the rest of it, I must say.

Also, the lack of regard for traffic danger, removal of clothes (usually only wellies and socks atm) and screaming ab-dabs, all very familiar. Usually over not wanting to hold hands .

The assessment is almost over. Monday he will be observed again in a small group and with DH and I. Tuesday he will be left with just the other 3 boys and whoever is observing. Then we have a big meeting with a final report, but don't know the date. Shouldn't be long.

I'm worrying that if he is not diagnosed I will remember and regret all the things I have not talked to the Psych about. And if they do diagnose him then I am worried that I have made too much of perfectly normal little boy behaviours.

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TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 23:27

PMSL at your DD smelling her classmate twocutedarlings - .

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MAMAZON · 01/03/2008 23:30

to most people DS is just an over excitable little boy when he is good, a spoilt brat when he isn't.

to those who know about ASD it is pretty obvious

TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 23:32

DS gets very upset (usually screams and sobs and hits) if we go a different route somewhere, but is happy to go to different places IYKWIM.

Would happily go to swimming on a different day and has been ok with changes to nursery hours (because of assessments), but goes mad if I don't put the lights on, kettle on, blinds up in the same order every morning.

Thanks to you all, this is very helpful. Tis good to talk/ponder...

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TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 23:36

Oh Mamazon - I was calling DS a spoilt brat yesterday (under my breath in the next room, of course).

Can't even remember what he was doing.

Think he would have been kicking off about not getting his own way over something trivial (trivial to me anyway). Probably wanted three biscuits - two is his limit !

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MAMAZON · 01/03/2008 23:41

routine is an odd one with DS.

he has no real concept of time and so if he misses school he is ok, he assumes its a weekend, but he has to miss 2 days at least.

but there are little things that he cannot cope without, he has to have a bath before he brushes his teeth, he has to put his trousers on before his top.

the TV must stay on and be switched to a certain chanel before we leave the house.

evening routine is non negotiable actually. it doesn't matter if its 2 hours late, so long as it all happens in order.

TheodoresMummy · 01/03/2008 23:48

Yes Mamazon, that all sounds kind of familiar.

Don't think DS understands the 'week', but he knows that if it's sunday we are going swimming. However we could go to the park or my parents house anytime (as long as it is not sunday morning because we go swimming, IYSWIM).

He is much more fixated on the smaller stuff with his routines. Like the things that happen when we get up.

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needmorecoffee · 02/03/2008 08:08

ds1's was very obvious when he was 4, lots of spinning, hand flapping, meltdowns, fingers in ears cos of noise and yes, familiy said there was nothing wrong. He didn't get a dx of Aspergers and sensory integration disorder till 7 or so.
MIL still denies he has Aspergers (she hates disability of any sort. Can barely bringherself to look at dd)
He's now 14 and is much more 'normal' so most people wouldn't even guess but gawds, it was hard work getting here.

twocutedarlings · 02/03/2008 09:23

Very inspiring to here your DS is now doing so well NMC. Its great to hear from hold hands IYKWIM. I still feel very much a newbie in the ASD world.

coppertop · 02/03/2008 11:00

Ds1's ASD was fairly obvious when he was dx'ed at 3yrs. He had only just started talking, spent a lot of time walking round in circles humming, and had the fine motor skills of a 12mth-old. Even with all this though, family generally just didn't seem to get that he was autistic. It was easier to blame me for not talking to him enough or not taking him to enough toddler groups so that he could mix with other children. He's now 7yrs old and most people wouldn't guess that he has SN. The only clue would be the extra equipment he uses in the classroom. He still gets upset very easily but I don't know if the other children/parents know why.

With ds2 (5) it is less obvious. He has some sensory problems, mainly to do with noise and wearing clothes. He strips off the second he gets home, which is an improvement from when he used to strip off before he got home. He's actually quite sociable in his own way. He loves being around other children but tends to talk at them rather than to them. His teacher confessed that when ds2 first started school in September they couldn't see any signs of autism at all - until he had his first meltdown out of the blue. He's often described as "emotional" or "a small and slightly mad professor" but doesn't fit most people's perceptions of AS/ASD at all.