Aspergers in a 4 yr old - advice please! Any books?

[FlameNFurter]

I still don't know if it is AS or just "Flamechick", or just being a 4 yr old, but I have no idea how to handle her any more

Our main issue at the moment is how to behave at other people's houses.

She clams up with the adults. Today for example - we were at Psychomum's house. She has known her since birth, spent sooooooooooooo much time with her that she is like family, completely at home there.

She started a yoghurt and didn't want any more. It is not my house so it is not down to me to say yay or nay so she was told to ask Psycho.

She clammed up, glared, refused to move from my leg.

We got over it with some grunting eventually.

She then tried to hug me with a chocolatey face and I asked her to go and wipe it - at home she would just do it, but no, she rooted to the spot, refused to look at anyone, to take the wipe and wipe her face.

We then got to the stage that we always get to - the time to say thank you for having her and say goodbye.

She clams, glares, whispers it if pushed hard enough.

She will say goodbye to anyone else, but Psycho she seems to have gotten herself into the routine that she grunts and glares and hides.

I have no idea if this is anything to do with AS or if it is just age/her.

We have tried explaining that this is what people do etc, but she just won't do it/doesn't get it.

I am drained by it. I have no idea how to handle the situation any more.

Will link Psycho to thread so that she can say how it is from her POV.

am here......will try.......

all I will say at this point is that B is not like most other 4yo I know.

she has always been ever so 'odd' (for want of a better word right now).

and I must stress tho that Flame is in the 'blame herself for bad parenting mindset', rather than beleiving in herself that she is doing a good job, she just has a challenging child. {hug emoticon for flame]

B is a child who will avoid eye contact if at all possible.

today for instance, she went off into her B'ness.......flame got irate, and rather than make it all worse with ranting at B, she removed herself (pat on flames back). I went down on my knees to talk to B. I just tried to say to her that while in other peoples houses that it is always nice for her to acknowledge people.....that when she doesn't it makes mummy and (me in this instance) upset. she replied saying that ' i did'.....but from behind her hand and while looking at the ceiling.
I asked for her to look at me, she did, reluctantly.
My DD3 was there with B holding her hand.
she turned into DD3's tummy whimpering......asomething she always does when she is aware that she is not behaving the way we are expecting her too (if not my DD3, then it will be flames....something which gets to flame, in the way that other people are driven doolally by screeching blackboards.....we all have points with our own children where as we go nuts over just one type of behaviour. MY bugbear is highpitched speaking when mine are telling on one of the others, flames is this!

well......to continue.....I eplained to B that when she is in my house then please and thankyou's are extremely important (as they are in her own house), and that I really really need to hear them from her in a 'big voice', not one whispered from behind a hand.....di she understand me. ''yes'', she said. I also explained that mummmy got very cross with B when she behaved like this, did she understand? "yes" was the answer again.

I asked her if she liked staying at my house...."yes, but I don't want to go now, I want to play"....well, I said, you have stayed and played, you even stayed with me while mummy was at the shop, but now she needed to go home. cue another cieling stare and she started going withdrawn again.

I am at a loss to understand her......so is Flame.

reading what I have said she comes across as a normal 4yo balking at being told what to do......she isn't tho.

she has so many other 'issues'

if anything is changed (ie, room decorated for a big change, going home a different route because of traffic probs for a minor thing)...she tantrums to the point that her and flame are beyond comforting.

if her sandwiches aren't what she always has, she refuses to eat them.

if she asked to put her shoes on to go home without at least a 10min warning, she goes into melt-down. This is something that we try to adhere to as much as possible, but there have been emergancies when we have had to leave somewhere and it is pure hell!

this is a child who is NOT like one I have come across before....and I have come across many, yet she is not badly behaved. she has a great sense of love and loyalty and she is a lovely little girl....she just has a few peculiarities that (IMO) point to possible ASD......and flame really needs for someone to back her and tell her she is a good mum, B is ok, but here are a few ways to cope with her.

oooh....family background point to flames sister being ASD too.....I know that flame has said that other times, just not on her OP.

sorry.....an essay

My NF kid clams up when I ask her to say hello, or thank you or kiss someone goodbye etc (she is 6, but this has been going on since 4 and is particularly bad with one uncle). I don't think it is necessarily just an ASD thing - sometimes I have to tell her in advance to be nice to this uncle, or I know she'll hurt his feelings by refusing to talk, say thanks for a present, or kiss goodbye or hug or anything really. She is totally NF, I think it's just embarrassment/stubborness? It could be that you have got into a loop with this particular visit, and I think my ABA tutors would probably say ignore the behaviour, act like it's not happening, stop asking her to do stuff and then she might change of her own free will. But I am no expert, it's just worth a try?

sorry, did not read psychomum's post first. Some of the dislike of change does sound as if she might be somewhere on the ASD spectrum (which is very wide), but her speech sounds very good and appropriate for 4, so perhaps aspergers is something you could google. Aspergers is autism without speech delay and with usually a normal IQ. The dislike of a change of route home is a classic one for aspergers. Is she at school?Does she play with other kids? Does she make up imaginative games, and does she point to show you or mum something of interest?

My GP has referred us to see a paed based on everything I have told him (but he did admit to having such limited knowledge he sounded like he was sending me just so someone who knew something would listen).

we do try to ignore it.....in my opinion it should be a case of 'choose your battles'.....something I do with my own children (who can be very challenging at times), but as she is in my house, and both flame and I insist on please and thankyou from any and all other kiddies in my house (be it our own kiddies or visiting kiddies), then this is one thing we are insisting upon from B, IYGWIM.

also, to be honest, B has been like this since forever....used to be with all people, now just with me and her mum (altho she si easier while at her own house, but then flame is more relaxed and there isn't the others about (ie, mine) to see/hear).

actually tho......it isn't just me or my house.....she did this with someone from school (the mum of B's little girlie friend), and the mum upset flame by saying that B was rude and implying that it was flame's fault. I think that was the straw that broke flame to be honest as before flame was content knowing that B was 'odd', bt that at least others just seemed content to think B rather cute/stubborn (all 2 & 3yo are in certain ways), but now that B is older more is expected and so she is being seen in a different light.

maybe that os the problem tho.....we all expect more of her and maybe B just hasn't 'caught-up yet'???

tis confusing......flame and I don't 'know' any other kiddies with any type of ASD, her sister is not confirmed catagorically(sp?), jut assumed, so there is no practicle help, hence this thread.

it is the is she/isn't she aspect. one thing that would help flame enormously would be someone to say to her that she is doing a fab job....and she isn't imagining it all/putting B into a box, just because we find her peculiar IYGWIM.

confidence wise, flame needs this!

Of course Flame is a fantastic mum - she sounds like she is doing all the right things! Many mums today don't make their kids say please and thank you and I think it's a step backwards for society. I hope the Paed will listen to her concerns properly. Just a suggestion - if DD has become "stuck" on saying please and thankyou, could you try asking her what she would like to say instead (it could be "I've had a lovely play" ) so you bypass her stubbornness IYKWIM? My DS is ASD, and we use a therapy with him called ABA, which is a behavioural therapy. He is very non-verbal, which is different from FLame's DD, but his ABA tutors actually ask me not to try and get him to say please/thank you - as they've seen some ASD kids who learn that these words will get them pretty much anything they want, so they never bother to learn any other words. You can't win, it's not easy having kids, and esp not those with special needs! Tell Flame she is a lovely, concerned, caring mum, who is doing all the right things and who should have a drink tonight when kids are in bed and watch some nice TV!

The wine is sat winking at me at the moment

Thank you AM - I do like the idea of saying something different instead.

Than kyou Psycho too

thankyou.......tis nice for me that comment, let alone flame!

AM......will get flame to explain what B is like at school.....she is a little unusual I think IIRC.

altho.....she does in fact thrive at school as the routine is so strict and that is something she soooooo needs.

no changing routine with B without risking meltdown....in fact once at school they changed her book without warning her. they won't be doing that again!

If she has Aspergers she simply can't look at you and insisting she does is - to be honest - quite cruel, even though you don't mean to be. It's like insisting a person in a wheelchair with a very painful physical condition stands up to greet you because other people do. People with Aspergers often find eye contact very upsetting and even painful. So they look at the ceiling, at someone's tummy, anywhere. She is probably overwhelmed by the talking and the closeness and the attempts to get eye contact and is trying to shut them out. The bottom line is, if she has Aspergers, she isn't like other people. She's got a disability. People always think children with Aspergers are rude. Sod them, frankly.
Yes, you can teach this little girl gently to eventually greet people in her own way (don't expect eye contact and big smiles and shouted greetings), but don't make it a fight, just lots of reminders at this age, then later on you can do a 'social story' about them. You can google them to find out what they are. But remember, social niceties wont' come easily at all to her.

thank you

You have no idea how good it was to read that. She will make eye contact on her own terms, it makes more sense the idea that the non-contact is to shut out as she will contact in situations she is happy with. I've read about not making eye contact before, but not an explanation as to why.

School - she thrives tbh. We have spent all Christmas asking when school is going back, and wanting to know what day/month we are in (they get told every morning).

She has friends, she has a couple of close ones (one is very chaotic and they seem a good combination!!) - she tends to assume that everyone wants to do the same that she does, and the other children are still of an age to see it as assertiveness and they like her for it. I don't know if that will turn in a year or so to being "bossy". She is on the verge of losing one friend because she won't bend at all to anything she wants to do (DD won't bend), and although her friend is willing to go her way so often, she has her limits and it ends in tears and screaming fits (from both of them!!).

Bossiness, wanting control etc are absolutely Aspergers! They want to be the boss and it's very frustrating sometimes. It is something you have to try and work on, but it is very, very difficult for a child with Aspergers to do things someone else's way. You just have to keep reminding them, as they get older you can explain that they don't have to be the boss of everything. You can use social stories for that too. It won't be easy! And it isn't your fault in any way at all, any more than it would be your fault if she couldn't see things because she was blind, or didn't respond to words because she was deaf. Manners are really quite easy for most kids, who copy what they see and hear. Kids with Aspergers don't really copy, so it's never truly natural. Remember, mastering social skills will be 100x (or more!) harder for her than for the average kid.
It's great she is doing well at school.
It isn't your fault that she is different. If silly women at school go in a huff and take a four year old's actions personally, then they are idiot oafs and you shouldn't give them another thought.
So there!!!

hi Flame

you know where I am if you want a chat, and please do make contact (and we will try to arrange that meet up this year, yes? Might be good for you to meet DS1?)

(oh and think about BIBIC? they're great with as type kids- you don't need a dx at all, www.bibic.org.uk)

Some adults with Aspergers learn to look at someone's forehead when they speak to them so they look as if they are doing the eye contact thing. It's really a huge deal for them. This little girl is still very young.

Some kids with AS (and even full ASD) don't have huge issues with eye contact, mind- ds1 only has intermittent issues (he's HFA), even ds3 manages to make eye contact much of the time. Imitative skills are a big part of this, and my lads have relativelys trong skills in this area compared to toehr autistic kids 9they amke up for it elsewhere mind)

B can do the eye contact....tis only (like flame says), on her terms.

feel guilty tho at the cruel thought....never thought of me as that, am trying to help her see that for us to respond, she also has to IYGWIM. explains it all that it is her trying to shut the stimuli out tho, rather than a personal jibe.

I do know it is not personal......she is like one of my own, and in no way can you take a 4yo comments as personal....they are too young to realise the social niceties, NT children and SN children. Lots of the skills are life skills learnt along your path in life (my teen for instance is having to undergo some life-skill learning ATM!)......tis just that there are still certain behaviours expected from the others, and me n flame don;t want to treat B differently as really, she isn't....they are all treated the same.

what flame and I both want tho, is ways around it to 'fit' with B......so that we can word things in a way that B will respond and not baulk, but so that the others don't see it as her getting 'special' treatment. we don't want B to be 'special' as such (as all our kiddies are special), as it can harbour resentment.....we want it so that B is the same, but with different needs.

oh, I am not explaining myself here......we need for something to click with B, to explain why she is like this, and for us to have help with OUR behaviour towards her......we just don't want big shouty 'this child needs handling with kid gloves' type behaviour from us......making it into a bgger deal.

am I making sense??? she is not my child, but she is one that I would lay my life down for as much as for one of my own.....

and I also need help with boosting flame....her confidence is plummeting. I know that it is B....NOT Flame.....others don't, and as much as we can say "sod the rest of the world", their opinions still hurt her.

That's common psycho, for people to assume its the aprents- we had to sit through a phone covo on conference where the Head of the school told the local support worker (who was disguested with her) that ASD is just another name for bad aprenting. At some oint comes the part where you learn to deal with that- but it can take a long, long time. I still get upset at comments from people and stares, and Sam is 8 now.

AS kids don't need handling with kid gloves. Whilst it is true that their self esteem can be low and needs to be watched, things ahve to be amde as explicit as possible for them to understand.

bibic

great for teaching you ways to work through these things and for boosting your own confidence- dont be put off by the name, they work with dyslexia and all sorts. They also start by giving you a call for a chat (ours was 2 hours) to find out all about the child and their behaviours etc, and to decide whether they can help you. They can help with funding as well.

Getting a child with S to do things on your temrs- ah yes, that everlasting problem! TBH I don't think its possible because that requires empathy. modifying their terms to suit yours and finding workable incentives is the best way forwards (with sam atm its chunkc of time on the Wii), but that empathy thing is very ahrd to adjust to.

thanks for all this peachy.

in fact, your link to bibic, stating that they help with dyslexics too, will be a godsend to me personally, as my DD2 has recently (and finally after years fighting), has been dx severe dyslexia, and I am now having to fight for DS1 as I am certain he also is, but to a lesser degree.

all this is hard.....I am so wanting to help, but without the right DX for B, I don't (and nor does flame and she is flames DD), want to forge ahead with anything that will then turn out to have caused her more damage and stress.

ho hu....parenting is sooooooooo not easy is it

This is a very useful piece written by a boy with Asperger syndrome himself, explaining a bit about eye contact - and of course not all children with Aspergers have trouble, and those who do, usually don't have trouble all the time, but when they do, the trouble is absolutely real.specialchildren.about.com/od/aspergersyndrome/a/eyecontact.htm
This is good & helpfulspecialchildren.about.com/od/behaviorissues/qt/listen.htm
And this
64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:i2-A0qiLCVQJ:www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/teachers_guide.html+Asperger s+eye+contact&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk
As the parent of a child with Aspergers I personally think it helps to realise it is a disability, and the child IS different. Just as a child who couldn't walk wouldn't be expected to walk to school just because his brothers and sisters did, sometimes children with Aspergers or other forms of autism need allowances made while you find ways to help them. Frankly, the rest of the world can be shitty sometimes, a thick skin is useful. It's not your fault. She is completely and perfectly normal for a child with Aspergers. The national Autistic Society website can be helpful. There are lots of ways to help children with Aspergers, but if they have it, they will always have it. You can't 'cure' it. It is who they are.

I didn't say you were cruel either. Of course you aren't. I said it can be cruel to insist on it, even if you don't mean to be. I mean it can be a really, really horrible, awful feeling for the child, totally different for them than for you or me.
Social skills are really, really important. I absolutely agree with that, and children with Aspergers can learn them, eventually and up to a point!
Is this useful? I thought it was.
www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1282&a=12731
There's a link to social stories here:
autism.about.com/od/improvingsocialskills/a/socialthinking.htm

The National Autistic Society can recommend books - I think there are some on the link.
Also, she is still very young and she will grow out of some of the behaviour - ie tantrums.

This is good on social stories. www.spdsupport.org.uk/socialstories.html
Maybe you could write one about saying hello and goodbye? Maybe you could suggest that she faces the person she is greeting but don't insist on looking at them?

It's bloody tiring and frustrating sometimes for all of us. It just IS.