School have called a Child In Need meeting with Social Services - please advise. (have tried again with thread title this time!)

[daisy5678]

Hi all, am newish. I have one son (age 6) who has been dx with ADHD and SPD. His psychiatrist also says that she is positive that he is high functioning autistic too and has done the first stage of the assessment, just waiting for an ADOS test now to confirm when he falls on the spectrum.

He's always been really violent, at home and at school, and even with a full time one to one behaviour support assistant, the school have had trouble with him. Son still sees his dad a lot, but dad comes here cos son needs his routine or he flips completely, so has never stayed at dad's house.

The violence is random, at home and at school, and can be caused by something as simple as something being moved. Sometimes he just lashes out but other times goes into full blown tantrum where entire rooms get destroyed unless he is restrained. He's hurt many staff at school and also me and his dad when having his flips. We've coped OK, as you just have to, don't you, but now he's getting very big and strong, it's really hard and I worry about the future.

Had a really bad night with him the other night. We had another child here (first time this year) and he lost it, kicking me, throwing things at her, screaming uncontrollably and then said he was going to get a knife and kill me. He carried on like this all evening, and at one point, I cried. He was disgusted that I was crying and asked what I was crying for, saying 'go on, keep crying, it's just because you hate me'. No empathy, but I guess to be expected with autism.

Anyway, I wrote all this down in the home-school book and was then called out of work to go to the school who said they were concerned for us both and wanted a child in need meeting. I work in education, so get that that doesn't necessarily mean anything bad, and the school reassured me that this isn't about criticism, but about getting extra help for son.

Which I want! I did ring SS last month but was told did not meet criteria for assessment by the disability team as ADHD was not a complex disability and until the autism dx is confirmed, they won't help and won't even assess us.

So I see this meeting as a bridge to getting extra help. But ex is worried that A) Social Services might start telling us what to do - I pointed out that we are good, consistent, caring but firm parents and so we have nothing to fear from SS (am I being naive???) and worries that B) everyone will think I/ we can't cope.

I worry that A) Social Services will still say we don't meet criteria and so still not help , in which case the CIN meeting will be a re-hash of the Annual Review which happened last month, with all the same people (OT, Behaviour Support Service, Ed. Psych, psychiatrist, teachers, SENCO) or B) it'll be the usual run of 'try this strategy' and then everyone loses interest while I quietly lose the will to live and eventually am put out of my misery by being stabbed by son!

What do you guys think?

(sorry it's so long )

Sorry, forgot to say that he has been on Equasym since September. I thought it was improving his concentration until it wears off at about 4pm. School say it's hard to see the impact.

Did speak to psychiatrist tonight and she made us an emergency appointment for next week but said to keep on with the meds. I'm concerned that his rebound behaviour is worse because of the meds, but I'll leave that until we've seen psych to decide.

I would grab the CIN assessment with both hands. Tell it like it is, warts and all. This is the way to get help/support AND have what things are like on record. Don't tone it down, use your Original Post as a basis for what you may say. Don't let you ex talk you out of a very good route to help. Maybe the med he is on is not the best one - presumably it is reviewed regularly, in which case you could talk about alternatives or different dose. It may not necessarily mean increasing dose (although I would certainly consider that if it will work better) but maybe splitting dose, giving some in the morning and a smaller amount later in the day etc.

I only fear telling it like it is because it makes it sound like my son son is out of my control. Which he sometimes is, but then he also is at school and sometimes he has three people to hold him still. I worry there'll be the usual 'look at your parenting skills' stuff. Been there, done that, did the parenting course 3 years ago just to see if it would be helpful, but I didn't need to hear 'praise your child' and 'spend time with your child'! I get that!

I want them to acknowledge that J needs help beyond what we can offer BUT that we are offering everything we can and should be offering, as are the school. I hate showing 'weakness' to the school (so it was really uncharacteristic for me to admit to them just how bad that night was) as so often I have had to be militant mummy in the past to ensure that his Statement was right etc. If they all see me as mum who can't cope, I worry that the focus will be on us as parents rather than meeting J's needs, if that makes sense.

I really feel for you givemesleep. My son also hit his one-to-one tutor at school the other day and school are being very serious about it, yet I know from that same one-to-one that loads of other kids in his class hit and kick, but it seems the rules for autism are even tougher than for normal kids. We have been doing aversive therapy on my son for any aggression - he absolutely hates having his hair washed, so every time he does anything in the least bit aggessive we wash his hair immediately, so he starts to control his own behaviour before he gets too big for me to control it. This may be of absolutely no use to you, but I thought it might be worth a try. Of course I can't tell the "authorities" that I use aversive methods, as they would probably label it cruel - but I believe the crueller thing is to let him grow up to think aggression is ok, and to let him get into real trouble with it when he is 6 ft 4 and 15 stone. I would never hit a child, and of course that is a stupid way to tell him that hitting is not acceptable, but I think using some relevant aversive therapy makes sense. If none of this is of any use, just ignore me but accept a big hug and know that someone out there knows how hard your life is!

My ds has becoming increasingly violent over the last few months - especially to me. The outreach team that support the school say he focuses on me as he is sure of my love but I still feel like i have failed him somehow when he completely loses it and attacks me. You have my sympathy{{{hugs}}}

I agree with Davros about being completely honest though. You need to let them know how bad it is otherwise they will fob you off again. Good luck

Givemesleep, if you can speak as eloquently as you write in your post DO NOT waste your time on worries about how people will judge your parenting. From reading your words it is clear to me you are an intelligent, caring, excellent mother who is doing her best. So what if they think you can't cope? As you say, that is partly true, and the real issue is your son needs help. Imagine how much worse it would be for your boy if he had a mother who didn't have your knowledge and abilities.
My daughter has very different SN from your son, but, as I'm sure you know, it helps in dealings with "the authorites" to approach discussions from a position of equality. You are all there for the same reason, to get help for your son. Hopefully a diagnosis will open doors to more support for you all.
I'm sending you my support and best wishes for staying strong through all of this xx

Thank you so much for your kind and helpful words.

I know that the ultimate aim of all this is to get help, but I'm just not entirely convinced that they will focus on the problem (J's SN and how to help him express his feelings in a more controlled way) instead of our parenting. I guess I just have to trust in their knowledge of me as a parent so far.

J's teacher has had loads of contact with me and I've only ever worked with the school to try to help them deal with his behaviour at school, so I guess this is just them returning the favour. My ex still thinks I'm being naive and thinks I'm giving 'them' ammo by being so honest in the home-school book.

Dustystar, I've had that said to me too - he knows he loves you so he can let go with you - what a bitch of a backhanded compliment that is, hey he loves you so much he has to hurt you! Great!

Thanks all for the support. Sometimes I just feel so inadequate and think that there must be something I could do better - I beat myself up (mataphorically, as I leave it to J to do the real thing) every time I shout at him in frustration, which is rare as it never makes the situation any better, but does happen on occasion. I beat myself up for giving him these genes (so many people in my family with mental health problems/ autistic stuff). I beat myself up for not being able to make him happy when that is actually all I want for him.

oh givemesleep you are a great mum, you obviously care so much and try so hard. And genes just aren't our fault! I am sure everyone will see what a great, honest mum you are! lots of love to you

The school have seen your son in 'full flow'. so know how difficult he is. If he takes three of them to hold him down it doesn't take a rocket scientist for them to think 'how the hell does his mum do it when there is just one of her'. I think they are doing what they can from good motives to help you and your son. They are no doubt already wondering how they are going to cope with him once he gets bigger and will be thinking the same about you. You are clearly a fab mother and I take my metaphorical hat off to you. I do get what you say though about another useless meeting telling you stuff you already know - it might be worth noting down all the strategies that you use and their effects before you go in so that, if the worst comes to the worst, you can just hand them a list - that way they can clearly see and have on record what you have done and it is evidence that you are the intelligent, rational person that you clearly are.

Good luck.

Could X go with you to meeting so that he is not so suspicious of potential outcomes?

Yes, ex is coming, but just keeps saying I shouldn't have written about what happened the other night.

I am going to write down all our 'strategies' to take to the meeting - good idea, thanks.

I think that you are all right and I am more grateful than I can say for your words. So nice to have people who 'get' all this. xxxx

givemesleep, total sympathy for what you are going through. I myself am in that giant balck hole between recognising a problem and getting a diagnosis. We are in the same place with regards help and support....we desparately need the help and support but without diagnosis we cannot access it. Again another vote here for being completely honest. There is a fine line between not coping and needing help and im sure anyone will see you love your DS and just need help.

Ex child protection officer here The CIN meet will be a really good way to get your worries/issues down on record then they have to be followed up/acted on so dont worry about the thought of any parenting analysis as it seems pretty apparent that school have recognised you need extra help and not parenting strategies ! There are various levels of CIN meetings and yours sounds like the basic "assistance necessary" which used to be level 3 in my day - HTH

That really helps, cleaning lady. Is it normal for the school to have filled out the CAF form FIRST, before the CIN meeting and then to invite social services though?

Thanks bonkerz. How long will it be till you get your dx? The psych said on Friday that she'll try to hurry up our ADOS test but that she would be able to commit now to autism anyway, but Social Services want it all in black and white. So frustrating. Hope you get what you need too soon x

Fiofio - hope everyone else has reassured you as they have done me. Let me know how yours goes! x

givemesleep, i didnt say before but when DS was at his previous school they actually rang social services on me stating that i was a child protection risk because i had said i didnt know how else to get DS to understand his behaviour and that i felt sometimes i should be smacking him! Obviously i dont smack because i learnt along time ago it wasnt the answer BUT instead of seeing my comments as a cry for help i was punished for it. Social services acutally turned out to be amazing for the few weeks they were involved and after 20 minutes noted everything was fine and that i just needed to talk to people who were going through the same as me!! I am sure you will feel better after the meeting and hope they offer some much needed support. With regards us and diaagnosis.... we have our first CAMHS appointment on thursday so i am going fully armed and determined to pin them down!!!

Well, I found that getting CAMHS to diagnose was easy (with the ADHD) once we'd reached the top of the waiting list, so I hope you have the same experience. They just don't seem to offer much except for medication. They said that play therapy is only for those with crap families and I'm not crap enough. [hollow laugh] - that was 2 1/2 years ago - maybe I'm crap enough now! Or mayeb there'll be something now it's autism and ADHD...I can live in hope.

at your DS's previous school.

Good luck at CAMHS! Should have asked - what diagnosis are you thinking it will be?

I think its usual for the school to fill out a caf form first as from what i understand its needed to 'officially' request support from outside agencies.

Good luck givemesleep and Fio

givemesleep. Am hoping (is that the right word?????) for HFA or aspergers. Think may get PDD seeing as DS isnt presenting 'atypical'!
My son currently has 9 outside agencies involved in his case..the more the merrier i sayand it only highlights how difficult life can be!
Good luck

Good luck bonkerz. Why do you think PDD - what doesn't ds do for the autism dx?

im just not sure that CAHMS will want to label him HFA TBH from what i understand they use PDD as a umberella for the spectrum.

Been playing amatear detective for months TBH and DS displays traits from all over the spectrum.

I think PDD is only if they don't meet severity criteria. Been doing the same as you and googling all over the place about autism, and that's what I understood. E.g. if he doesn't meet cut-off for autism on ADOS test, but is just below it, it would be PDD as a dx, not autism.

whats the ADOS test?

It's the Autism Diagnostic Observation Schedule - apparently they get the child in the room on their own with a trained ADOS specialist and then do a series of standard things, like asking them to tell a story or tell them about something funny that happened to them and then they scre them on eye contact, imagination etc.

In my area, it's apparently the 'gold standard' to diagnose autism by using a combination of the ADI-R (Autism Diagnostic Interview - Revised) and the ADOS test. J scored really high on the ADI-R questionnaireyinterviewythingy so from that and the psychiatrist's observations high functioning autism was pronouned and we're on the waiting list for the ADOS test which was supposed to be 6 months but being bumped up the list because of the major problems we're currently having. That will show where he belongs on the spectrum.

Hope that helps. Good luck at CAMHS.

Well the Child In Need meeting was POINTLESS. The social worker who came wasn't even from the disabilities team, but from the Early Intervention Team, and she said they can offer me a bit of respite but nothing else. She looked at the list I had taken of all the strategies we use with J and said she was in admiration and we're doing really well. Which is nice but also depressing iykwim cos it's like saying there's nothing else we can do. Psychiatrist was good, had some good ideas, but said that it's not about making J conform but about making his environment less stressful. It was that horrible balance between the school and I hoping that we can make him conform a bit more, because there are weeks where he conforms and achieves as well as the other children, if not sometimes better as he is so bright and loves doing well, and then on the other hand the psych saying that he's already got full time support and isn't coping and is getting angrier and more violent, so we should be looking at special autistic school.

I don't want him at special school. But I think that's more to do with me clinging on to the idea of a child who finds the world an easy place.

I also hoped someone would be able to offer us something other than respite. But then what was I hoping SS would offer? I don't know.

Psych says anger management won't help but will look into play therapy. But she keeps reinforcing that Js anger comes from the autism so that's not going away, and therefore nor will the anger when he comes up against something which doesn't fit with his view of the world.

ARGGGGGGHHH.

So now got no hope of anything being done to help and got till Feb to decide whether he remains a year in the Infants (August birthday anyway and puts off the change of environment for another year, but doesn't get to move with his peers who like and accept him), going to Junior school (which will flip him out cos it's such a huge change and I don't know if they'll cope as well with the rage as the Infants do) or going to one of the special schools (state special for EBD or private special for autism)

Joy.

tried to reply but then MN went down. Sorry the meeting was useless. My child is younger so I don't really know much about school issues - only thoughts that spring to mind is how is your boy having anxiety rather than pure anger iyswim, and whether direct payments could be useful as opposed to respite.

givemesleep i dont know what to say. i know it all seems hard right now BUT the fact SS have offered you respite is something you should grab with both hands. With regards schools its such a hard thing to decide. Im in the same position although DS doesnt have 1:1 BUT even with it i dont think he will settle in MS and function. i have looked at a school with a unit attached and was impressed. Go and visit some units it may help oyu decide whats best. The thought of a special school scared me because DS can be 'normal' sometimes but looking at the places i have made me realise DS would be so much better off in a unit where they know how to cope with him and also where he can be included in MS throughout the day.