What would you do and how would you expect others to react?

[Freckle]

Have come over to the special needs board for a bit of clarification. I don't have any SN children (and I have tried to include SN in my talk board, but it won't let me).

I went out for the day last week with my 3 boys and my sister and her son. At lunchtime we went to a Pizza Hut for lunch. Whilst standing in the queue waiting to be seated, another couple entered behind us with their son (possibly aged 10/11). The boy was very noisy and it soon became clear to me that he was probably quite severely autistic (in as far as I know what that is). His father struggled to control him physically - he'd elbowed me and cannoned into me about 4 times. The mother apologised but I said it didn't matter.

They were seated quite quickly as it probably seemed the best thing to do because the child clearly was struggling with queueing. Throughout all this he was screaming and trying to get away from his dad. He continued screaming once they were seated.

As it turned out, we had to leave because they couldn't accommodate a party of 6 (it was quite busy), but my sister said that at least 3 other parties followed us out, complaining at the behaviour of the child.

My query is, if you have a child behaving like this (and I appreciate that he cannot help it), would you have carried on trying to have your meal out? The mother looked very distressed and the father was desperately trying to physically control the boy. Also, how would you have expected (or liked perhaps) other people to have reacted?

If they had been able to accommodate us, I would have stayed and had our meal (although my sister said that she wouldn't have done so), but clearly others were not prepared to do that.

I can understand the family wanting to have a normal day out, but I'm not sure any of them was enjoying the experience and it was probably made worse by other people leaving the restaurant because of their son's actions.

Lil, we don't want sympathy. We want a world where our children with special needs can participate, to the extent that their disabilities permit them to do so. Their participation will often be limited by their disabilities. It shouldn't be limited by the attitudes of other people, though.

That's that then. totally depressing all round...sigh

Yurt I like the card idea - I'd have one saying, "don't ask me how dd is today, its the same as yesterday, crap" and then on the otherside it would say " oh, don't you care, you haven't asked how dd is today?"

ah you've got it dino. There are so few things that ds1 can access, his world is so, so narrow, that I'm buggered if I'm going to let someone else's embarrassment prevent him accessing the very few things he can participate in.

The only thing that would have worried me is if the lad was getting distressed? If he was getting overloaded, too much sensory input for example and it was making things very difficult for him. If he didn't have a problem and he was happy and just making a noise to show he was happy, then I'd be happy for him. If he was upset at all the noise and people around him then a bit of time in a quieter area to help calm him might have helped. At any rate I'd have kept eating. I took my lads to a small cafe for lunch today and Ds1 was very happy shouting out numbers and mentioning the fact that he had "bread" about a zillion times and I think I heard some tuts as he was pretty loud, but he wasn't distressed and he sat on his chair all through the meal, so that's the main thing.

No, that's wrong. Him sitting at his chair wasn't the main thing, but him being happy and content was.
And just to add I think the other lads' parents did the right thing in carrying on with their meal, they have just as much right to eat out as other people.

Lil
I think that those of us whose children can draw a crowd just have to ignore other people . that does not mean that we don't care - of course it does not. I am very concious to try and ensure that DS1 can invite his friends to his home without a huge risk of massive embaressment. I ALWAYS try to take into account the feelings of those around me - always have. If DS is ever doing anything that could really distress others I would withdraw.
But I am a little non plussed by the perception that we SN population have to drift into the mainstrea community hoping for support and sympathy and somehow forfeiting the right to that if we eventually get worn down and just put our own childrens needs first.I am not being trite here - i really do think that unless you have lived it it is impossible to really understand.
I think the difficulty for those who do not have traffic stopping children is to understand the relentless soul destroying nature of the judgements of others. I have had extraordinary things shouted at me and was once memorably hit in Boots because i couldn't " shut that f*ing kid up".
I really do understand that you are tring to see if there is a way that neatly meets the needs of our kids without impacting negatively the lives of the NT population.
I think how rarely these issues are discussed may be testament to how hard we SN parents and carers try. Certainly a good day for me and DC's is a day that we pass unnoticed.
But please do spare a thought when assessing what you think maybe should have been done that sometimes we are having to do the best for ourselves and our kids and a couple of pissed off restraunt patrons who are perfectly capeable of goiung somewhere else just this once is not the end of the world. It is after all just a shadow of our lives - for ever.
I will be dealing with this kind of issue until the day i die - and i am not always going to get it right. But I , and most of those I know, do try

Tbh, I couldn't tell if the boy was distressed or not, probably because I would have been judging him by "normal" standards. He certainly didn't appear happy; his yelling and screaming seemed frustrated and angry and his physical struggles were quite unsettling. However, I don't know what he is like normally, so couldn't tell whether this was him being happy or upset. I could see that the parents, the mum in particular, were struggling to cope.

If it was the waiting which was upsetting him, it might have been easier for one parent to deal with the child where he wasn't having to wait in a queue whilst the other got the table and perhaps even ordered food so that it would be on the table when the child came in. Or is that defeating the object of getting an SN child to get used to certain social situations?

I do think that a lot of people who don't have experience of SN children wouldn't automatically think "Oh yes, that child probably has SN". They would just think it was a badly behaved child. I suspect that I would have done before I became more informed by reading posts on here.

We left because they couldn't provide a table for 6, but what would have happened if they had been able to do so? As I said, I would have been prepared to stay, but my sister wouldn't so we would have been faced with a choice of eating in separate restaurants or all of us leaving. Her argument was that, if she has a choice, why would she choose to eat in a restaurant where another customer was screaming and yelling so loudly that you couldn't have a conversation?

Maybe you should print off this thread and give it to her to read? Or do you think she is pretty closed-minded?

I don't think it would help. She's not unfeeling, but she has problems of her own and I suspect her ability to empathise with others' problems is rather worn down.

However, her reaction to the situation was probably mirrored by many of the other families there. I doubt they are all close-minded or unfeeling; just not used to dealing with SN children or understanding their parents' needs.

And is SN back in active convos? Cos I still can't get it to show on mine. I have to click on threads I'm on to get to this one or go into the topic list.

I would have left if I had dd with me. but dd has severe sn and gets frightened upest easily. sorry if that is the wron answer, I just no if there is a major distraction of any kind her eating would be impossible as she would be gawping at the distraction.
we get the looks and tuts due to her lack of table manners. but I am learning to not give a shit(although I do position her so she is not distracted and to minimise putting people of there food.
I Think comparing children/young adults with sn to drunks and toddlers is ignorant,and makes me very

Fio - you have made my day - am sniggering here at my desk

[over my head] ..am I allowed to ask about JJ..is this a seriously 'in' joke?

Not sure if I'm allowed to say.
I think Yurt might be the best person to ask.

My son is severely Autistic. Ive been in situations where he has behaved like that. I dont force him to stay in places as i dont want to upset him and put him off going back. Hes still quite young so im sure by the time he gets to 10/11 I`ll be used to people staring and making comments. I agree with TheodresMummy people need to know more about Sn.

I wanted to come back to this as I've been thinking about it. I thoguht that maybe putting into context two of the occaisons when ds1 has behaved in this way might help.

So the first occasion was the trip to McD's that I mentioned previously. It was easter holidays. I had all 3 kids (plus help). We couldn't think where to go. Beach was out (ds2 hates it), Moors were out (ds1 was uncontrollable at the time on the moors). So we decided to try McD's then Sainsbury's. We left early (no way would I try McD's at luchtime with ds1- would be impossible). We arrived just ebfore 11am. So it wasn't busy, but the chips weren't cooked and ds1 had to wait. That led to the crawling on the floor, headbutting the windows, screaming and hitting himself. We couldn't leave- ds1 was expecting a McD's, so we had to sit it out until the food arrived.

Another time a simialr thing happened was this summer. DS2 and ds3 were away for the day, I had help in, so, although I knew it would be busy I decided to go the beach. The routine at that beach (which can't be broken) is to arrive, look at the toilets, go for a 30/40 minute (approx) walk, then go to the outside cafe. I left timing it so we would reach the cafe at about 11.30 b3fore the lunch rush. We were held up in traffic- for a long time. We arrived about 11.50, so I tried to do the cafe bit first. No way. Ds1 insisted on the walk etc- so we arrived at the cafe bang in the middle of lunch time. The result screaming, hitting himself etc. No one let us jump the queue, so we just had to restrain him for the duration of the queue. NOT eating there was not an option. At 8 I struggle physically to remove ds1. He was EXPECTING to eat there. Not negotiable.

I don't enjoy it when ds1 kicks off in public. It is physically draining. So we try to arrange things to limit the likelihood of that happening. We choose where we go, and the times we go carefully. But sometimes things happen that are outside our control and so the public meltdown happens. If I then had to out energy into worrying about people being unable to cope with a bit of screaming, well quite frankly I'd be banged up insane by now. That's the context in which I don't care if people can't cope with a bit of scremaing. There's nothing more I can do, other than refuse to allow ds1 out in public and I'm not prepared to do that.

Is Gess back?!

Why does it have to be a secret??

We'd have stayed, aprtly becuase unlike this fmaily we have other kids but mainly becuase we are sick to the back teeth of being housebound and need space. up to toehr people whether they leave or not.

BTW research released yesterday shows that 17% of people in wales still think ASD is really just naughty behaviour.

perhaps we really do need to be mroe visible?

sadly I'm only surprised that it is only 17%

not really meant to be here, i should be on my way to my mothers but just had to comment.

I would have stayed, more so out of annoyance that people had left.

i thin i am becoming a real stubborn old moo in old age, but i get tired of feeling i should leave simply becasue Ds cannot behave in a way others expect.

MB I bet if they'd ais AS / HFA ? ADHD it's have been hghe, I suspect that reflets ASD as an entire spectrum! Anyone who watches DS3 knows he is SN whether or not his is ASD is almost irrelvant; as the PTA lady said 'ewr whats wrong with him then?'- as he sat quietly on his own living room floor flicking through a catalogues (he loves catalogues ) harming nobody. Whereas everybody we know seems to be a qualified Paediatrician who knows that ds1 is really jsut naughty. Hmmmmmmmm

I've had a think. IF I were in pizza hut with my family and it becomes apparent while we are waiting to order that our meal is going to be a difficult time becasue of noise from another party in the room we would probadly leave.The noiesy party is welcome to stay but I would rather eat somewhere I can have a conversation. Our local pizza ht is one of those dreadfull buldings that just amplifies kid noise. I've lost count of the number of places my dad walked us out of after we had sat down becasue he decided he didn;t like the place afterall.

As parents of SN children we can not let fear of what might happen rule our lives.

My severe ASD son was invited to a roller skating disco by a classmate. I wasn't even sure my son would enter the room and thought that he might cause a scene. I talked to the birthday girl and mum before the event and they both insisted they wanted ds at the party and the girl even said she would make them turn the disco down for ds.

We pre planned (as we always do) drinks, chocolate bribary and his scooter (ds screams if he sees a foot measure so skates would be impossible)

Well he loved the party! He didn't conform but it didn't matter - he spent some time on his scooter, spent some time running around and some time rolling around on the floor. Most of the time he was accompanied by a number of his female NT classmates who like to "look after him"

Had he kicked off I would have used stratergies to help him cope, but would have used my judgement on if it was all too much.

We have to take chances - sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but we have to try.