What would you do and how would you expect others to react?

[Freckle]

Have come over to the special needs board for a bit of clarification. I don't have any SN children (and I have tried to include SN in my talk board, but it won't let me).

I went out for the day last week with my 3 boys and my sister and her son. At lunchtime we went to a Pizza Hut for lunch. Whilst standing in the queue waiting to be seated, another couple entered behind us with their son (possibly aged 10/11). The boy was very noisy and it soon became clear to me that he was probably quite severely autistic (in as far as I know what that is). His father struggled to control him physically - he'd elbowed me and cannoned into me about 4 times. The mother apologised but I said it didn't matter.

They were seated quite quickly as it probably seemed the best thing to do because the child clearly was struggling with queueing. Throughout all this he was screaming and trying to get away from his dad. He continued screaming once they were seated.

As it turned out, we had to leave because they couldn't accommodate a party of 6 (it was quite busy), but my sister said that at least 3 other parties followed us out, complaining at the behaviour of the child.

My query is, if you have a child behaving like this (and I appreciate that he cannot help it), would you have carried on trying to have your meal out? The mother looked very distressed and the father was desperately trying to physically control the boy. Also, how would you have expected (or liked perhaps) other people to have reacted?

If they had been able to accommodate us, I would have stayed and had our meal (although my sister said that she wouldn't have done so), but clearly others were not prepared to do that.

I can understand the family wanting to have a normal day out, but I'm not sure any of them was enjoying the experience and it was probably made worse by other people leaving the restaurant because of their son's actions.

I find it positively delightful when there are other children in restaurants etc. who are making more noise than my children! Doesn't happen very often though!

But..shiny you know how it is when you're on a train, say and there's this loud drunk behind you prattling away so the whole carriage can hear? and it DOES affect you. Its hard to ignore and carry on your converstaion with your neighbour.

Maybe its just natural for people to find awkward situations..well awkward? partly because they do feel sorry for the persons 'embarassing' situation and can't help.

Or would you feel better/worse if they did say something sympathetic. i don't think its fair on anyone and you can't expect people to stay and feel awkward

Just take the opportunities as they present themselves freckle (such as teaching tolerance during the pizza hut encounter i.e. not leaving like your sister). There are no disabled children in ds2's school - not that I know of, but his friends have the opportunity to meet ds1 (ho ho- freaks some of them out). Of course that can cause problems for ds2.

If your children become interested in disabilties there are lots of inclusive clubs or at least SN clubs that require helpers. One of my direct payment workers (in her early 20's now) seems to have spent most of her teens helping out at various clubs for children with SN. She doesn't have any family links with SN/disabilties- just got interested in it.

Interestingly she gets crosser than me with the general public's reactions.

Agree with Theordores mummy and Shiny, half the problem is lack of experience with disability particularly in the uk. The old victorian view that children should be seen and not heard is just the tip of the iceburg! We have only just got to the point with Ds(almost 8 SN)of being able to eat out in a quiet tolerant restaurant/pub garden (5-6pm seems best time!!) and actually enjoy it and all eat!!

DS is obviously disabled though.. he uses a wheelchair and you can see his physical problems as well as his learning/behavioural ones. So quite why people can't excuse his behaviour a little I don't know.

Lil, how mean to compare a child with special needs to a loud prattling drunk!

I think a drunk on a train is a bit different than someone with learning difficulties shouting! That's liek saying someone in a wheelchair spoils the view or something so needs to be moved!

Lil. A loud drunk (!) and a disabled/special needs child/person are two different matters really aren't they!

Actually one reason I don't take ds1 out that much is because ds2 gets upset & embarrassed. DS3 doesn't give a stuff (I doubt he ever will).

We have had some very generous members of the public though. We went to an outdoor cafe once and ds1 sniffed an old lady's sandwich (about 1mm from it). She just laughed- bless her. She had just seen him sniff someone's bottom so maybe she thought she'd escaped lightly.

Oh yurt I know this is a serious topic but lol at the image that conjures up!

LOL Yurt. You have to develop a black sense of humour don't you. DS grabbed a lady's fanjo at a science festival once!! There was a terrible silence and then we all (us, friends, the lady) burst into conversation about the experiment she was showing us in order to cover the moment!!!!!

Oh come on,its an analogy!!!!

I'm trying to give you an example as to how onlookers to very noisy SN children might feel - its the same sense of embarassment and awkwardness, it doesn't matter if the cause is a SN child or a drunk adult. Don't pretend you haven't felt it yourself! How did it make you feel? Can you actually change that feeling, or does it make you want to get away from the situation??

Luckily the man being sniffed didn't notice. He was tucking into a sandwich. We were falling about laughing (my dp's girl crept up to retrieve him).

What on earth do they have to be "embarrassed and awkward" about? Sorry but you're just being ridiculous.

But it's not the same. Yes I have felt irrotated and alarmed by a drunk.

No I have not felt either or those regarding a disabled person. Sorry. Can't pretend I have just to please you Lil.

Nope sorry Lil - when I see a drunk I'm concerned they might chuck up everywhere or fall on me. I don't feel remotely the same when seeing a child with SN (and granted I've been in the SN world for a long time, but I don't remember every feeling that way). I view a child with SN exhibiting challenging behaviours the same way as I view a toddler tbh. And I find both about as embarrassing r socially difficult.

Yurt that is a very unfair example, very over sensitive as if you are trying to make out that I am prejudice when I bloody well am not!

If I stretch my mind back to before I was in "Holland" () I can remember feeling a bit afraid of disabled people exhibiting difficult behavior. But not irritated or embarassed.

what's an unfair example? Saying that I view a child with SN like a todddler or the wheelchair analogy? I quite often use wheelchair analagies as I find people have a better understanding of the effects physical disabilities have than learning difficulties. I have found that repeatedly people don't understand the effects that learning difficulties have on behaviours. I do react the same way to children with learning difficulties kicking off as I do to toddlers kicking off.

I have certainly felt embarassed and/or awkward. Last year I went to a college for a day course where lots of older children with sn/children who had learning disabilities were taught.

One day in the canteen a boy (probably about 16/17) picked me up from behind (I'm only 5 ft tall). I certainly felt very embarassed and very awkward. He quite literally wouldn't put me down (and he was holding me by my breasts in front of about 40 people) even when I asked cajolled, pretended to laugh it off so he would put me down.

Eventually I had to say very firmly "put me down AT ONCE" before he did.

He then cried a lot (obviously i knew he was trying to be friendly) and I felt awful (yes, embarassed and awkward)- but I also felt invaded.

So, on the one had I'm trying to say, hopelessly inarticulately, he is entitled to be at college/be educated/be socialised and I am entitled to not having my personal space invaded.

Sometimes these two things clash. And that's just the way it goes, not everyone gets what they want all the time - I certainly didn't that day .

I also would have left Pizza Hut, absolutely not because I think they shouldn't have been there but because if I go out to dinner (very poor so its a big deal for us even if we went out for pizza) I would want it to be relatively quiet - which is why I don't go out to dinner at half term. I also would have done it very discreetly. People who tut and make a fuss deserve a right kicking in my view - bastards.

I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone.

Freckle I had a similar situation recently, and like you I didn't knwo what to do for the best. I was in the garden centre cafe with my two NT kids, and a child came past our table being physicaly restrained by a young woman (prob care assistant), shouting, screaming and trying to bite her. An older woman (prob mum) and a NT child followed with trays of drinks and cakes. It was obvious to me that he had soem form of ASD, but so many of the old biddies were staring and tutting - I felt like yelling at them on the families behalf. They finally got settled and the boy sat quietly licking a biscuit. I'd moved ds out of their way, and flashed what I hope tehy saw as a friendly, supportive smile whilst doing so, but whilst part of me really wnated to say something to make it clear I didn't think like the mutering oldies, I also felt it would be patronising to even hint that I could sympathise with the struggles they faced.

Yes but Laurie I don't think this about being picked up by the norks and hauled around!! It's about being in the same room/space as a disabled person.

I wouldn't have left pizza hut. But there you go..

x posts...no! that wheel chairs spoil the view !!

This isn't a toddler tantrum, it is a stronger older child whose father struggled to control him physically - he'd elbowed Freckle and cannoned into her.

As much as it would be great if people could block out difficult behaviour - its hard to. I'm just trying to get you to put yourself in someone elses shoes. You cannot judge those people for leaving the restaurant because they feel awkward. Its not like they are being abusive or discriminating by asking you to leave. I'm not sure that having the moral high ground excuses everything.

True, was just trying to say that actually I have felt embarassed and/or awkward when other children exhibit challenging behaviour because peeps were saying in some way that people shouldn't feel embarassed or awkward.

I couldn't help feeling embarassed or awkward (and that's my problem as I really really hate having my personal space invaded)