Between a rock and a hard place and need advice

[shazzarooney999]

Hi guys, this is a really tricky one and i dont know how to handle it, i have the 8 year old, high functioning although not offically diagnosed yet also had spd and hypercusiss, I then have a much older child, 19 who is suffering depression due to all the meltdowns my high functioning child has, the other children cannot come into the room or come anywhere with us without him kicking off, this is affecting the 19 year old badly, although saying that the 19 year old has the nasty habbit of rubbing my other child up the other way causing him to have a meltdown for hours on end.

Its been hell on earth the last few days and i just dont know what to do about this, i was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions please? the 19 year old keeps calling the younger one a pychopath, i have tried explaining time and time again that when the younger one says something negative he needs to ignore it, but he doesnt then he goes onto critisize our parenting, because we are trying to let some things ride to avoid full on meltdowns, but the 19 year old think the younger one is getting away with everything and thats not the case, when the younger one has smashed electrical equipment ect we have made him pay for it out of his pocket money.

Anyway has anyone any advice on how to deal with this please?

Also, while I am ranting, there is no such thing as equal attention being given to children. I believe if that is the case, then you can't be meeting each childs needs. Fairness is what we should be striving for. Sometimes, one child will take more attention than another. Like when dd broke up with bf. Or when ds got mugged. Or when ds/dd have a good thing to share. Or the extremely late night chats they seem to want (when my eyes are falling out of their sockets). I am sure OP that you do lots of things for 19 yr ds that you don't even think about. Please don't beat yourself up about your parenting. After all, you are trying your best..

looks to me like a pattern of behaviour has formed. The problem is, that you say to older ds 'just ignore it'. And he clearly can't. He needs to be acknowledged for what is happening like 'I am sorry young ds is being rude so before you get upset, please leave the room NOW.' This seems unfair, but the pattern is set and its needs to change. He can change it by not responding. Young ds can have it explained that being rude gets NO response.

Sorry we have explained to him about asd and he does a lot of googling so he is informed enough, yes we treat him like an adult when he acts like one, however he is quite immature in a lot of ways.

Shazza - it is a difficult one. Due to the fact that a lot of 19 year olds are very immature and think they are allowed to voice 'like' an adult. Did you ask for his advice? I doubt it. The top and bottom is, the rules of the house need to be established, he cannot be allowed to continue with his attitude towards young ds. It is unfair on young ds and potentially damaging. I explained to my immature son that younger ds has a world of people outside our house that pick on him, have prejudice, are nasty with their looks or comments, therefore the minute he walks through that door at home, though we are far from perfect (as I often get things wrong and have to correct myself or someone else does), my 10 yr ds absolutely knows he is safe and secure amongst us. This was not achieved overnight by the way. But we were consistent with older ds, he wanted to stay and to do so he needed to change. He may not have liked it, and maybe still doesn't sometimes, but its the way it is.

Perhaps not having a dx is exacerbating the difficulties here. Does your older DS understand/accept that his younger brother has SN?

Yes he know he has problems,he knows what they are, but the poor kid also had problems at school with other children, he has been off for a week due to a bug and before he went off he was telling me that people at school have been calling him a weirdo ect, so then to come home and have it at home, is totally not fair, his self esteem is low enough as it is, the 19 year old is a big boy/man old enough to take care of himself, but to be causing friction it just dam well annoying and not fair.

I do feel for you Shazza, its a horrible situation, but you do have the power to make things better for everyone. You have to be tough on this. Would you let anyone else be like this to your ds in your house? NO of course not. So what makes 19yr ds think he can get away with it? You can't control what goes on outside the home, but you can indoors.

Its all very well talking about what the 19 year old should do; ie behave rationally - but people with depression are not entirely rational, because if they were, they would not have depression! Its like expecting the child with ASD to behave as if he were NT!

Look at the list of symptoms of depression on here: www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/problemsdisorders/depressionmen.aspx

"Is depression really different for men?
Different symptoms

There doesn't seem to be a completely separate type of ‘male depression’. However, some symptoms are more common in men than in women. These include:

irritability
sudden anger
increased loss of control
greater risk-taking
aggression.

Men are also more likely to commit suicide."

NB - irritability, sudden anger, increased loss of control and aggression - could this be what is happening to this 19 year old? This is not a case of depressed parents cope, etc - as parents got into this situation, by the choices they made. We all know if we have sex, we could get pregnant; and we all know at the back of our minds that some children are disabled. Siblings most likely did not have any say in the parents' decision to have another baby; and even if their parents did discuss it with them, could they have made informed consent? I don't think so!

Its also being accepted that adolescence extends into the mid twenties, so while a 19 year old may legally an adult, it does not mean that socially they are, given the reorganisation of the brain is still going on; and people mature at different rates.

Having observed it myself, I'd say that a sibling can be at the end of their tether; and they simply don't have any more empathy, compassion, whatever to give! They are in a situation they can't cope with. There can be survivor guilt. While intellectually, they may know on one level all about the nature of the special needs; it can be really painful for them to hear on another level. I also think it is tempting as a parent, to want the other siblings to be "normal", because you think you have enough to cope with, and when problems arise in the home, to want them to leave because it makes life easier for the disabled child and yourself - when actually a sibling, with developing mental health problems needs more support; they are most likely to be suffering low self esteem, feeling unfairly treated, angry...Telling them to leave home is potentially another rejection.

Taking this to its logical conclusion, if parents say they won't tolerate bullying, etc in their house, what do you do - tell the sibling to leave? They then commit suicide? It may have taught them a lesson, but at what cost?

I cannot abide bullying. I will not have it. Whether it is from an adult of 50 or a teenager of 19. Yes I am very well aware that children mature at differant rates, and a immature child may not mature until they are in their mid twenties. But this means for several more years the household has to tolerate a person who is behaving in a socially unnacceptable way? What lesson is the 19yr old learning here? What happens if he ends up working/ college / uni with someone who has sn? or he has a child of his own one day with sn? He may find if he thinks he can say and do what he feels, that he gets the sack/ gets chucked out of college. Depression is not to be taken likely, but even someone who is depressed needs to listen to what is being said, especially within a loving family environment where he can be given support, and given ways of coping with things he finds difficult. He could commit suicide by being asked to leave, OP has not said he is suicidal. if it comes down to it and he doesn't like living at home with young ds, then its best all round. No one has said chuck him into a hovel, never to be seen again by his family - an outcast. He can still be part of his family, but on a level that can be managed. given a child with ASD is prone to suicidal thoughts in their lives and particularly teens, if the bullying carries on, there is a very serious risk that young ds could get so low that he feels that way. His ASD is a lifelong condition, it never goes, he deals with it daily. I don't think its much to ask, to have anyone within the household to not name call, make them feel bad, or 'not rub them up the wrong way', to the point that a full blown meltdown ensues.

You are incredibly dismissive of the impact of depression zzzzz. If only it was that easy...

ds2 has both an ASC and depression. It is the depression that impacts his life far more than the ASC. But undoubtedly the ASC is one of the causes for his depression. Basically you can not separate the two neatly.

To add to the fun in our household dh also suffers from depression and has done since being a young man. He has good phases and bad phases but he no more choses to have depression than either of my sons have chosen to have an ASC.

When either ds2 or dh are in a low phase even the smallest task becomes an unclimbable mountain. I am talking things like walking to the shop or paying a bill or going out the front door. It will, therefore, not be easy for the OP's son just to move out as you say and he will need help to do so.

Another thing they both do is latch onto an excuse for their depression. So for dh in the past it has been his job, but now he is out of work it is of course not working. In the OP's son case, therefore, it is not necessarily his siblings ASC and, therefore, I doubt moving out will be the magic solution.

Having said that it sounds like it might benefit the whole family if they all get some respite from each other BUT I think this has to be done in a positive light for both and not as a punishment for the older child. He might not have an ASC, he might be an adult but he still needs support. As well as helping the older child move out I would investigate the possibility of respite for the younger child so that you are able to spend at least some time with his older siblings to help them too and, of course, some time for you to recharge the batteries so that you don't collapse too .

Id break it down into 2 seperate issues.

Your elder DS having depression and needing your support
Your younger DS having SN and ending adjustments.

Then set 'rules' for each party and stick by them. Remember at all times that elder DS was just 11yo when his brother was born - starting a very hormonal and tricky period of his life. This will have had an effect on him and this needs to be recognised.

I'd lay ground rules. No name calling, no commenting on parenting etc. Have a consequence to these being broken. But also your younger DS must stick to this. He must be polite and kind and not name call your older DS.
Make sure each da has their own space. Somewhere they can retreat too and that they other is not allowed to go.

Your elder DS needs it hammered home that he's an adult and his behaviour is unacceptable but where we constantly say "work our what the behavior is communicating" with our DCs we should extend this to everyone.

What is your elder DS behaviour telling yiu and how you can support him to make it better - make it clear your support will remain as long as he sticks to the ground rules.

I like oneineights post. Its constructive with some good ideas in it, it shows understanding. I think that rather than a crisis point chucking out session, with loads of drama. A calm plan should be discussed. Maybe respite could be tried first?

I meant to say last night, that I would try to find somewhere else for DS1 to live - but with family or friends if that's possible? Where he has someone more mature to talk to, if he needs to. Iirc, men tend to under - report suicidal feelings, so there is no knowing really if and when this DS1 gets suicidal. Families and professionals only know what people with mental health problems choose to tell them - not what is really going on in their heads.

If not, I would get try to get respite for DS2.

I understand that with depression, the older son might find his brother's behaviour more agitating and be unable to cope with it, but he has a choice to go to his room or go out of the house. That's what makes his actions tip over into bullying IMO.

I think either older DS needs to not to goad his younger sibling and be kind to him or he does need to move out.

Hi

I am wondering whether the 19 year old might be feeling depressed and aggrieved not so much about the meltdowns themselves, but about not having any support or attention himself. It is normal in a situation with a younger autistic child for the older one to feel that all the energy and resources and support and attention are going on the younger one and he is not getting his emotional needs met. Undoubtedly, the younger one does need support and attention, but the needs of the older one cannot be ignored either - else he may develop a chip that could last his whole life.

I know it is so hard when there are so many competing demands, but I would suggest really making an effort to create some quality time with the 19 year old on a regular (or at least semi-regular) basis. Show him you are on his side and that you care about how he is doing and how all this is affecting him, and that you want to listen to him and understand him. He may have stuff to tell you about his life that you didn't know - that he has wanted to share with you but didn't feel he had an opportunity (I mean little things, not some major life thing). He is probably yearning for a good relationship with you but doesn't know how to express this. It may take time for him to open up, but don't push too hard, just be there for him and give him your attention and time, which is what he is probably needing - even if it's just having fun together.

Some people might think this is too "touchy-feely", but unfulfilled emotional needs are very often at the heart of such situations. The depression is a giveaway. Seriously, try this - it could make a huge difference.

You are right, zzzzz (if unnecessarily insulting in your tone). But sadly it is normal for the younger child to get most of the attention, as they clearly need a lot of it and parents are human with limited resources. It is not universal, of course (normal doesn't mean universal), but it happens a lot. I was not being sloppy or generic or assuming I knew more that I did about this particular situation. I'm sorry if something upset you in what I wrote.