"Does your DS have learning difficulties" ADD? ADHD? A storm in a tea-cup?

[leaningtoweroflego]

DS is bright but can be very oppositional, distractable and strong willed.

It is just his personality or something more? I've wondered on and off for a while, but I'm considering it again this week as he went for an ear test. I couldn't go in with him as they didn't want toddler DD there. Apparently DS was very obviously faking that he couldn't hear any of the sounds. The medical professional (a nurse maybe?) who did the test asked me if he had any learning difficulties. I said I'd wondered about ADD before but he's bright and I'd spoken to the school and they weren't concerned.

She did some more tests - and on tests where he had to repeat words he heard, he changed the beginning of each word to make it a nonsense word, to pretend he couldn't hear it properly. The (?)nurse and then the consultant said some cryptic stuff about how the way he behaved was in line with certain "personality types" but they obviously didn't want to say too much in front of him.

Does anyone know what they were getting at? (I think I may call the hospital to ask.)

You might find it hard to get a diagnosis of PDA (CAMHS psychiatrist didn't want to know when I said my ds fits all the behaviours.)

I would also say that teachers know their pupils very well indeed, especially by this time of the year, and if they do not have concerns, I would take heart from that. A few weeks into the autumn term every year, my ds would be so disruptive I would be called in. (Ds now in special unit and doing better than in
mainstream.)

However as you are concerned, take him to the GP for a referral and also contact the headteacher of your son's school requesting an assessment from an educational psychologist. These two avenues got me to CAMHS.

If your son does have ASD a diagnosis is essential as he will need specialist support.

""Some children continue to mask their difficulties in school ...
for most, as demands of school increase more difficulties spill out in educational settings. Very often, once this does start, the rate of decline can catch everyone by surprise. Multiple exclusions are common. Frequently, schools are no longer able to cope and managed transfers to alternative provisions are made.""

This is exactly the problem we're having with ds. His behaviour is deteriorating at home, but at school he's still managing to hold it together at school and look "normal".
Our worry is that if he doesn't get support he will sometime go to pieces at school which will be disastrous for him. I do believe that appropriate strategies are crucial, therefore the correct diagnosis is important.

If masking is taking place, don't expect teachers to know him well, they will know what he lets them know.
Ds's teachers see his occasional outbursts (reactions to sensory overload and too many demands) as rudeness and naughtiness, which in the long run won't help him at all.

PDA is recognised in some areas, but it is a lottery.
My area do not recognise it at all, so we went private. The local hospital have accepted his diagnosis though.

I have a daughter I suspect has PDA. Our local health authority doesn't diagnose it but we use the strategies to great effect.

For the hat/shoe situation try "DS we have to go out in 10 minutes so which would you like to do first? Put on your coat or put on your shoes?"

So you're not letting him dictate as such you are still getting him to comply with what you want but removing the direct demand.

Also try removing the word no from your vocabulary. You can still respond in the negative but use "not now" or "later" or "we'll see" - if it's something he can do after something has happened say "yes, but after school/dinner/you've brushed your teeth"

It's really made our lives easier.

I have self diagnosed DS1 with PDA, he is now 17 and is a high school and college drop out, he cannot give in to the demands of teachers, cannot bring himself to concentrate or complete work at home.

At the moment I am teaching him at home to refresh his maths skills as he wants to join the Navy! It takes hours to complete one small section of revision, he is tired from playing Rugby, he has a sore Knee, he has broken his pen, he needs a cup of tea, he has fallen off the chair, twice ( yes really ). Leaving the house is still a very stressful event.

His brother with high functioning ASD is a delight by comparison.

He has always found unexpected changes extremely difficult.

Interestongly, he was always very quiet at school and very difficult at home, but increasingly underachieved as the work got harder.

I never got it right when trying to remedy this, tended to either be seen as an over fussy mother ( I had his hearing tested aged 4 due to him not answering when called and was torn off a strip by the audiologist as his hearing was perfect) or have teachers moan about him and wonder what was wrong with him.

He did well only in the classes where the teachers had the personality and ability to handle a class of teenagers without ever shouting or putting anyone down, so not many.

it may seem weird that he wants to join the armed forces, but he actually responds well to being very active and having well defined roles and routines, this is partly why I have not pushed for a Dx as it would mean he would fail the medical ( he refused to go for any testing anyway as he didn't want to be bracketed with DS2).

I am rambling a bit, I could write an huge essay about Ds1, one last point that I found was that star charts and reward schemes always backfired badly with DS1 despite them being standard good parenting technique, I now never use them with any of my children. I do agree about avoiding no and offering a small choice, the book "How to talk so children Listen and Listen so children Talk" had some techniques that I found useful ( never managed to train DH to use the unfortunately so I am still called in to help them communicate).

Wiggly, (sorry for slight hijack OP!) if you don't mind, can I ask you something?

Looking back over the last few years, what if anything would you have done differently wrt school for your ds?
Ds (10) is managing at the moment, but his teacher is fantastic, gentle, not demanding etc which suits him. He has problems with strict teachers and answers back and can be rude.
He starts secondary next year which we are very worried about. Just wondering what it is like with the benefit of hindsight.

Very interesting.

I said to DS that I want to find a way for there to be less shouting in the house, and I'm reading about things that might help.

I gave him a cuddle, and mentioned the shoes incident and asked him about what he feels like when I ask him to do something. He said that when I ask him to do simple things, it makes him feel sick. He said it's not complicated things, only simple things. (That last bit was unprompted - I never suggested there could be any difference between simple tasks and complicated tasks).

I tried to ask questions as neutrally as possible, without putting ideas into his head as that wouldn't help at all! It was really interesting that he said simple instructions made him feel sick, could that be anxiety then?

I asked what I could do to make it better - how could I ask him to do things in a way that doesn't make him feel sick. He said he didn't know how to answer as he thought it might be a trick question. I reassured him it wasn't a trick question, but he didn't have an answer, I said that was OK.

I said, OK, how about we play opposites, Maybe if we know when it's worst, we can find the opposite and it might be the best? So, when does it make you feel most sick? And he said when I shout. I said, so how about I try to ask you really softly to do things, do you think that would help not make you feel sick? And he said, no, you already ask me softly. (But in reality I could ask more softly).

I gave him another cuddle and said we didn't need to talk about it any more right now but that I was still going to try to think of ways to stop the shouting.

Not long later he had to get dressed. I asked him, softly, to put his clothes on, he started getting distracted (picking up toys, avoiding going to his drawers etc). I asked him again to put his clothes on. He said he didn't like being asked, and that it made him feel bad. I said but if you put the clothes on, then it'll be over and done with, you won't feel bad then. He said, "but I still feel bad after".

I then changed tack and started doing something I used to do to good effect when he was little - turning it all into a game, so we pretended he was getting dressed to be in a running competition, and suddenly he wanted to and was dressed in no time.

Then a bit later, when I asked him to put his shoes on, he said he didn't want to because of "you know, what we talked about". I said "sweetheart, just because we talked about it doesn't mean you don't have to do it. You still need to do things like put your shoes on".

I think I'm going to take a step back and try to make more things a game, he loves fantasy. We used to do it when he was younger and I suppose I thought he was too old to be doing that all the time now, but if it helps, it's worth a shot I guess?

Also, I notice how quickly he's latched onto what we talked about as a possible reason to get out of doing things!

Well done OP. "I'll race you" is really good with DD for bedroom tidying (bet you can't tidy before I've peeled the potatoes) or going to brush teeth/shower....

When you really need him to do something present two options. So the shoes/coat thing. Sometimes there can be a positive/negative choice too, just as long as they don't feel a demand. So with DD "you either do this now or you do it instead of hobby"

Sorry have only read part of the thread and don't have time just now -so bookmarking really...
My DD1 (14) also bright was diagnosed with ADHD just over a year ago

• I'd suspected for years and she said it was not an excuse but an explanation' . And asked me why I hadn't got her diagnosed before - so she could get the help and understanding she needed - she isn't useless/lazy/difficult she just finds it much harder to fit into the unnatural way we humans now live...it has helped with her self esteem.

I had developed a way of dealing with her over time - one thing I learned was never to ask her to directly do something. So instead of saying 'put your shoes on' make it passive - you need to be putting your shoes on now, don't say get up -say you need to be getting up ... you are not ordering them to do something -they just need to do it I would get a diagnosis if you can - for your DS really. I found it was very quick but then we had years of reports etc to back it up -think it is harder when they are younger (and may just grow out of it - I got that when I mentioned it at primary about her lack of concentration - 'well she is very young' ... Will be back later...

I read in the PDA booklet that wetting yourself could be a related issue. Did any of your DC have problems with wetting themselves too?

DS still has accidents very often - several times a week - and isn't dry at night.

When it happens in the day, he won't tell anyone, and often comes home from school having been in wet, smelly clothes for ages (The school trousers are made from a synthetic material that dries very quickly, so easier to hide from the grown-ups I guess). He will often - but not always - fiercely deny that he's had an accident, even when I can see his trousers are wet. (I get that he's embarrassed, of course).

At night he wears night-time-pants. Every so often we try a night without, and once or twice he's made it through.

We've been to the Doctors and they basically say that at 7 it's still in the realms of what's normal, and to make sure he's drinking enough water.

If this is related to ASD / PDA, does anyone have any tips on tackling it?

Thanks everyone for your advice and thoughts, I really appreciate it.

This is helping me to gather my thoughts and perhaps gain a bit of clarity.

unlucky83 the last time I had a good think about this, I ended up suspecting ADD. I certainly suspect it for myself now, anyway, as a result!

I hadn't considered PDA until now, but it's also ringing a lot of bells.

I think I need to do a bit more research into both.

Hey Lego, another one here . My Ds is 13 and we eventually went for assessment after his y5 teacher strongly recommended it. Previously to this, all teachers knew that it was impossible to get him to DO anything, but that he was bright enough to compensate and knew it all anyway iykwim. His official dx is ADHD (mostly inattentive, but he does have difficulty with some elements of hyperactivity) with some ASD traits (sensory/ social) and anxiety, but tbh this doesn't fully describe him. (I actually don't think it's ever going to possible to naim it completely as there is so much crossover with PDA etc)
Yes, we are pretty certain he faked an eye test and now wears glasses. Yes, he has had long term issues with continence. His demand avoidance techniques have always been second to none, and now that he is almost 14 they entirely consist of locking himself in the bathroom for hours if he is asked to do anything.

That said - the actual dx has not really changed anything, except cemented that he is indeed quirky beyond the realms of NT, and so it has allowed us to explore techniques and options that are commonly used with these issues and try them out. A lot of it is trial and error.

For Ds, diet seems to play a big part (we have more issues when he is self-selecting heavy carbs, and less when he is high protein) and we have had a lot of success with medium-high dose omegas, combined with zinc supplements and weekly (sometimes even twice weekly) Epsom salts baths (for magnesium). He has also tried some prescription meds (concerta did nothing, he took vyvanse for two years but is currently off meds). He has has had follow up for three years from a variety of sources including paed and the local equivalent of camhs outreach (working on continence and social anxiety).

Since his y5 teacher stepped up, we have had a host of teachers that have let him roll, (the demand avoidance techniques were such that he arrives in y9 having never completed a piece of homework) so we are currently working with his current set of teachers (gawd bless the one that finally stepped up at the beginning of term and said 'huh? Wtf?') towards study skills. He's a bright lad so the actual knowledge is not the problem, but the recording and organisation and follow-through to actually hand anything in has been emotional...

Sorry for the essay, but I thought it was worth letting you know that after years of utter frustration, we are seeing some real changes in his maturity and ability to connect and respond appropriately. It's not perfect (I cannot tell you how many times I have wanted to rip the bathroom door off the hinges) but I can see glimmers of the man he will become. We just need to keep on with the things we know work...

Lol polter. You said it much more succinctly. I think 'any' label is a good enough start to be looking around and seeking out techniques, ideas and supports.

PolterGoose "It's very rare to fit tidily into one set of diagnostic criteria" thanks, that's good to keep in mind, and I'll ask for this to be moved to SN Children.

We have hypermobility in the family too, but on the other side!

But it's not something DS has - if anything he's the opposite. He's not as stretchy as other people - e.g. he couldn't get his feet in his mouth as a baby (very frustrating for him!), or if he tries to play a game like Twister it hurts to bend his legs so much.

madwomanbackintheattic I am looking forward to the teenage years with some trepidation!

That's really interesting about diet, I'll look into that.

DS kept up the pretence of having a hurt wrist for over a week. He got an x-ray at A&E after he did it, and I took him back to the doctors about it, a week later, giving him the benefit of the doubt. Halk an hour after the doctors, he was using his "very painful" wrist to swing from monkey bars and push heavy roundabouts with gusto.

When I called him on it the next morning, it made it so much worse. He was terribly upset I didn't believe him, and I actually got a phone call from school about 9:30 saying his wrist was so bad maybe I wanted to take him home. I explained he was putting it along, and they said they'd "chivvy him along". He came home that day miraculously cured! His teacher had given him some exercises that cure wrists, apparently. The first involved him gently turning his wrist, and the second involved him vigorously waving it about. She'd got him to do this before P.E., I suspect to reassure herself that his wrist was, in fact, OK before letting him loose in the PE lesson, but amazingly it "cured" him too! Clever teacher - just need her to come round to help him get his shoes on every morning now

I will try to ignore from now on ...

We have mornings with ds where we're amazed he's still alive. His leg hurts, he's got the biggest headache in the world, stop the car he's going to be sick etc etc.

Wrt weeing, we always thought it was deliberate, but not so sure now, but when ds gets wet he'll wee. He always wees in the bath. If we're out for a walk and his legs get wet (which they do because he likes being cold and wet, strange boy!) he'll wee, whether he's with others or with us. Maybe a sensory thing, not sure.

We're going to move this to a more relevant topic at the OP's request.

Thanks Emmanuelle :)

Sorry Phil I typed a reply to you but managed not to post it as Ds1 and DH came back from a rugby match and we had to take Ds to A&e with a suspected broken arm ( turned out it was just squashed!).

How to talk to kids so they Listen and Listen to Kids so they Talk is an old book but has good techniques in it for less confrontational approaches to getting kids to do things.

Im with Phil. By end of your first part I had PDA in my mind, by end it was more firmly there.

Better to continue seeking professional advice on this one, as the situation is so complex you can very easilly tie yourself in knots and anecdotal support can only get us so far.

Find a psych you can put your faith and trust in.