Can anyone talk to me about PECS please?

[nomorebuffalo]

I've got twin boys just turned 4 with ASD. We moved house/area last year and have only recently been seen by new SaLT. Both boys go to mainstream nursery 4 sessions per week. Myself and nursery have been sent on various courses, one being a introduction to PECS.

I've got mixed feelings about going ahead and using it. Does this really encourage speech or is it likely the boys will continue to be non verbal and accept they communicate in this way?

Would be grateful if anyone could tell me their experience good or bad. Feel pretty overwhelmed by it tbh.

SALT lady told me all communication encourages further communication. Which is why signing is encouraged to reduce fustration in the child whilst learning to be verbal.

I am guessing this would apply to PECS too.

One thing I was told to do is make sure I was verbally saying the correct word at the same tone as the sign.

This worked and now my 4yo DD2 is signed off from SALT as she has practically caught up now

I was a bit iffy about PECS itself. But I've mainly heard good things about it.

It all depends on your kids communication skills, as PECS teach the initiation skill. Basically, the child points, he gets it. PECs help reinforce that, so if the child is not really initiating, PECs can help reinforce that initiation skill.

DS loves Makaton, so he uses that instead.

If your not sure, go on a PECS course, because a lot of people uses PECs wrong.

Thanks Babies. Great to hear your dd has done so well.

I definitely can see the positives in it. I'm just worried I will be doing it wrong after minimal guidance from the experts I suppose. Also worried that DT's will think this is it as far as communication goes and any language will take a back seat.

Thanks Adrianna. Yes I think a proper course would be a good idea. I will also look into Makaton. This was kind of a two hour workshop I was sent on. I can see how people would use it wrong and that's one of the things I'm afraid of.

Depends on how you want communicate with your child, I use a dozen of basic makaton signs with all my kids when they were young.

As they have all been slow talkers and signing works well for me. But with my youngest who is essentially non verbal at 2.6 yo...I have been thinking about trying a communication board on a tablet or PECS, so others can understand her. I decided to wait a few months and see what she picks up on her own first.

Who ran the introduction to PECS course?

It is dangerous to try and implement PECS without having gone on the 2 DAY training.

When you HAVE, it is wonderful and you will learn both how to initiate communication and then words and sounds, both using Applied Behavioural Analysis (which is what PECS is).

You will get a very good grounding in motivation and reinforcement, which will help you with behaviour and teaching new skills.

Pyramid offer good discounts to parents to attend their courses.

Starlight - The PECS course was basically a 2 hour talk and demonstration given by our new SaLT's. That was it, we were sent away and expected to start using it at home and in nursery.

Thanks for your info. I will look into a Pyramid course as your description of PECS sounds great!

IMO that is unethical. If they called it PECS you could write to Pyramid Education and explain what this LA are passing off as it.

My DS is 4.5 and uses PECS. He's almost non-verbal (three words) and we found PECS encouraged him to communicate through engaging our attention - he wasn't pointing when he wanted something but would lie on the floor growling and screaming. Now he can ask for the things he wants - so this morning he came with his strip and it said - 'I want' 'tv' 'channel changed' 'toast' 'chocolate spread' 'taxi' 'school' - so seven items.

However, I would echo Starlight's warning about PECS being introduced properly. To begin with it is about the child gaining an adult's attention and actively choosing a symbol - you need professional help or a great deal of proper training.

As for encouraging a child to speak - our DS says yes and no and a couple of other words are developing. But more important is he now much more engaged in our world and is calmer as we can explain things to him. He will now point out objects (like planes and tractors) that he wants us to look at - he has learned the importance of communication. Yesterday he was bringing me random PECS symbols together which were obviously ridiculous pairings and I would say don't be silly and he would start laughing - we were having a conversation and game through the medium of PECS - unthinkable a year ago.

Star - They definitely referred to it as a PECS course initially. I have seen two of the SaLT's since and they admitted they shouldn't be calling a PECS course and used a variety of descriptions such as workshop/introduction. Maybe someone has pulled them up on it already.
Have looked into Pyramid and next course near to me is Jan 2015.

JJXM - Great to hear your DS is doing so well with it. Lovely to hear of his funny pairings and you laughing together, he sounds great. How long have you been using PECS and what training did you get?

Def go on the course if you can. You will get a good grounding but they also provide a manual you can go back to. Used properly it won't stop speech coming in fact using it properly will encourage the motivation to speak. Motivation is the bit most SLTs and autism staff don't know how to teach so really they are not teaching PECS they are just teaching use of symbols.

We didn't end up going the PECS route as we started ABA at the same time and he started using single words, but I still learnt lots on the course I do use because it is ABA based.

For many children with autism they can speak but don't. We used ABA approach of using rewarding items to tempt him to use language and that did work for him. The principle is same as PECS except instead of passing over a symbol or picture you hold out for words. Its still taking years to teach DS language but he started using single words quite quickly this way. gives you an idea - obviously being super nanny its a bit simplistic but Dr Koegal is ABA expert so her advice is good! (Less sure about the super nanny bit!)

Supernanny likes to give strange names for things and pretend that she 'owns' the interventions/strategies and that she is leading them.

Otherwise she may as well leave and have Dr Koegal do the programme instead (who I have met btw and is the loveliest person ever who is so passionate about the kids she works with).

If they referred to a 2 course as PECS training then you need to report that to Pyramid Education.

I always felt that it was win-win. If DS started communicating with PECS then he was communicating - brilliant!

If it prompted him to verbalise as well, then even better.

It did the latter and we started ABA soon after so were able to build on the emerging speech. He tolerated a while of me prompting him to point at the words on the strip and i would say 'i want banana' slowly and deliberately. Frankly, I bored him into speaking I think!

It is totally crucial to go on a Pyramid course imo. It seems to be so often misused in educational settings. It's all about initiation by the child, which is not really possible if their PECS book is in a cupboard, only to be brought out when it is 'PECS time' .

nomore - we've been using PECS for just over a year. DS went off if a bit over the summer but we've found it really useful lately as he started school in September.

I'll reinforce what agnes said about motivation being where many people fall down. Once DS got the hang of a symbol means I get something I want - we made him actively seek us out - so when he selected a symbol we would pretend to ignore him and he would have to open our closed fingers and force the symbol into our hands. The next step was that we would stand at the opposite end of the room with our backs to him so he would have to initiate communication. Then he would have to look us in the eye or turn our faces to the symbol.

I think it will encourage speech eventually but the key is making DS communicate which is far broader than just speech. The differences we've seen are more eye contact and a willingness for physical contact. It's also helped him understand consequences. Yesterday he brought me the symbols for 'I want juice'. I told him we didn't have any. He went back to his folder and was reading his symbols. He came back with 'I want' 'juice' 'shop'. Similar to an NT child begging for something and asking parents to get it.

Agnes - Thank you, I enjoyed the video. The ABA route might be better for DT2 possibly both boys. Sometimes I feel the word is there with him but he just can't be bothered saying it. That's why I'm worried if PECS takes off he may just be content with getting what he wants that way and speech never happens. Who knows though.

Dudesmummy - It was definitely called a PECS course when I was first told about it but they since started to refer it as a workshop and said they shouldn't call it a PECS course.

Brucie - That's another problem I've got with the way we were shown. The PECS book and a box of motivators are to be brought out during the day for PECS sessions. So once the boys have got the hang of it, surely it seems stupid to not consistently use it through the day.

JJ - Thanks for your posts. Sounds like your son is communicating really well. Since the 'course' we have been using a few loose pictures of items DT's really like left out in the kitchen. Both boys have got the idea that if they bring us these they will get milk/juice/toy whatever. Sometimes they bring the wrong picture when I know they mean something else but I let them see they have to live with their choice.

We have been using PECS for about 6 months now quite successfully. DS can now ask for a number of items with his pictures. He has over 100 pictures in his book now and is so much more easy going and less frustrated because he can communicate his needs. He is still non verbal but is attempting words although they are not very clear. We have not had any training but were shown how to use PECS by his speech and language therapist. He is having trouble with signing, he just doesn't seem to have the co ordination skills to make the signs. I am thinking about using this in the future. I think it's great :)
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Sorry link hasn't worked, but its the Grace App workshop on you tube

Do go on a Pyramid course if you can.

It has to be reinforcing so bringing him the 'wrong' item when he brings the wrong picture is ok, but you need to get the balance of prompting to get the right thing correct to ensure he doesn't get switched off.

Ideally you need a 2nd person to be physical prompter as well as the communicative partner who is in charge of the reinforcer. That's another thing that lots of teachers/schools seem to neglect, and it's so crucial.

Cheerios - Your DS sounds like he is doing great. Communicating and less frustrated would be a huge improvement for DT's. Thanks for the link I will have a look at the Grace App.

Brucie - Yes it looks like a Pyramid course is definitely the way forward. I was worried him getting the 'wrong' item would just make him confused and stop bringing pictures at all.

Thank you for your input everyone.

I agree about needing a physical prompter and a communicator. Our SALT sat with the symbol and the EP would push his hand to the picture and push it into the SALT's hand. Then they moved onto something DS wanted (eg train) and another symbol which was a sock. If DS chose the sock then he got that - so he could be taught differentiation. My DS is quite a cheeky little boy though and sometimes he would deliberately pick the sock because he found being given a sock funny and he would take it giggling furiously.