"Mum, will I ever be able to stop hurting my sisters?"

[lougle]

Said DD2, tonight. She'd obviously be thinking about it a lot, because she started crying. Ironically, she hadn't hurt them tonight.

I said 'well, we're trying to see if you need any help, and if you do need some and you get it, then you might not feel like you need to hurt them any more.'

Was that the right thing to say? I was a bit thrown by the whole thing. I didn't really appreciate that she probably doesn't like hurting them either.

Sounds pretty good to me poor dd2

She does have very good self awareness, Lougle, she will certainly thrive with the right help and she has the right help in her Mum

Hope she cheered up a little

She kind of got distracted by the thought of food, Handy. So the subject ended but the tears were real.

My eldest son was always hurting his younger siblings, and like you it never occurred to us that he didn't like doing it. He just couldn't help it. As he got older he was better able to control himself, but now as an adult he says he can tell us that he didn't want to hut them he just couldn't stop himself.

She is very self aware. The Paed said he thought she seemed too self aware to have ASD. I don't know. I know there's something wrong with her. I wish I could help her.

I don't know how you all put up with me. She better get sorted soon, or I'll be banished from here and go mad

What would I say?
"It sounds like you are finding it really hard, and it makes you feel sad when you hurt someone. Maybe we could try to work on some ways to help you stop yourself a little more often?"

I would then go on to explore how she feels physically when she gets angry (head spinning, hot hands, stomach churning etc).
Then explore some of the triggers that tend to cause a reaction from her (sibling looking at her, taking something of hers, not listening etc)
Then experiment with some alternative ways of releasing the anger she feels in those situations (running up and down the garden, hiding under a blanket, screaming into a cushion, ripping up scrap paper, jumping up and down) Let her try a few things out when she is calm, and see what makes her feel better.
Next time an incident happens, divert her as quickly as you can, to her alternative. She will begin to associate the alternative with a release of frustrations.
It's not an immediate solution, nor will it work every time, but it really can help a child who wants to find a better way of dealing with things.
She currently responds by hurting, because that's the only response she knows.
Being so self aware can be a real help to her.

Thanks Polter

MostWicked, thank you for giving your ideas - they're really useful.

I think that DD2 is very impulsive with her aggression - she's quite passive as a rule, so it tends to be a single pinch, hit, grab, push, etc., rather than a sustained attack.

It's only been in the last year that I was aware that she wasn't developing as I'd expect (she's 6.5) and only really since September that she's really unraveled to the point where she recognises something isn't right frequently.

I suppose I have been thinking that aggression needs to be stopped, instead of seeing it as just an overflow of her distress.

I also think you handled it really well and sensitively, which is no surprise given what we know of you from here

This self-awareness thing is a red herring, I think. My ds knows he over-reacts to things, but it doesn't always stop him being able to control himself at the time when something triggers him. Did you hear/read the "The Reason I Jump" book on R4 a while ago? Amazing insight from the boy into his behaviour, but doesn't mean it's any easier to control. And I have massive anxiety about many things - I know I do, but without tangible strategies to deal with it when it arises, I often give in to the anxiety.

It's often trivial stuff that triggers it, Polter.

Examples:

-DD2 asks DD1 (with LD) to pause a film. The trouble is, she's been thinking 'I'm going to miss the film if I go for a wee. I really don't want to miss the film. Arrgh. I'm going to wet myself if I don't go for a wee. I really don't want to wee myself. Oh I know, DD1 could pause it.' So when she says 'can you pause it, DD1.', she's ready for it to be paused that instant. DD1 has slow processing and is absorbed by the film, so reacts slowly. DD2 decides (in that split second) that DD1 is ignoring her, and she of course, is really anxious about a) weeing herself and b) missing the film, so she pinches her/hits her.

-DD2 finds DD3's happy go lucky ways irritating. She snaps at DD3, who starts to mimic her (uncannily and infuriatingly). DD2 loses her cool and hits her sister. But it's incredibly quick.

She always has a perfectly logical reason why she did it. At the time, she can never see that she should apologise. She thinks that they should apologise first because they did the thing that caused her to hurt them first.

I haven't, bialystockandbloom. I'll have to see if I can hear it.

Thanks for understanding, all of you. It's so hard to discuss this stuff with people who have NT kids. It's hard to communicate the 'difference' in the way she behaves.

My nephew lied today - a massive tale about something potentially very serious. When I spoke to my Sister I said 'does X have a tendency to tall tales at all?' I was so because my children don't lie. DD1 isn't capable of telling lies really, certainly couldn't construct a story to tell a tale. DD2 is a terrible liar, extending only to 'it was her!' with a point, then caving at the first challenge and admitting it was her. DD3 has never done it, I presume because she's either a bit too young for the lies yet, at 4, or hasn't had the example from her sisters.

It's only when I see other children I realise how different mine are.

Ha! On a playdate recently my ds was hit (nothing too serious) by his mate. He came running in saying "x just hit me". 'X' followed saying "it was an accident!!". All sorted out, but later ds said "mummy, why did X say it was an accident when it wasn't?". I said she was trying to get away with not being told off. He just could not comprehend this. I had to explain explicitly that the hitting happened where I didn't see it, so X could tell me something else had happened as I hadn't seen it for myself, so I might believe her. He sat digesting this for a good few minutes.

Lack of theory of mind I suppose - it hadn't occured to him that anyone could or would try and hoodwink someone else. As far as he is concerned, if something happened, it happened - whether or not it was witnessed by a third party is superfluous. He just cannot lie.

I actually love this aspect of him (though of course it makes him vulnerable). DD (4yo, nt) is an accomplished little fibber already

DD2 walked out of her class this afternoon with her coat on like a cape, and her cardigan placed on her head like a turban. She didn't seem remotely self-conscious I was!

That's interesting, zzzzz. I don't know much about lies

It's probably not as alarming as it sounds. If Ds said something like that I would guess he was talking more about his feelings towards them, of frustration, anger at times, and confusion, which are normal sibling feelings expressed in a socially unacceptable and possibly more honest way.

Does she want to not hurt her sisters, or does she just not want to be 'in trouble'?

I didn't find it alarming, Star. I found it sad. She was expressing a sadness that she hurts her sisters. Whether that sadness is intrinsic to her, or whether it is a sadness provoked by the reaction from us, to her hurting her sisters, is unclear.

I think she doesn't want to be in trouble, although she's always very resigned to her punishment (naughty step). In fact it's quite comical sometimes, that if my Mum and Dad come to visit and she's there they say 'on the naughty step again, then, DD2...' and she is sat there, sucking her hand. She rolls her eyes and says 'yes...again....'

It seems to me, a bit like what happens with our dog:

He goes into the utility room and he has to have a nose behind the door. Always. Even though nothing changes behind the door. As he does so, the door shuts. Trapping him. Again. Then he cries.

I can just imagine him getting to that point where he can see the door shutting, too late, and thinking 'dagnammit!!!!'

DD2's like that, I think. She doesn't realise until she's done it, what she's done, then she's surprised as if to say 'who knew that I'd end up on the naughty step if I pinch my sister??'