Do I punish violence during a meltdown?

[MyFabulousBoys]

DS has ADHD, ODD, hyper mobility, probable dyspraxia and multiple tic disorder. He is just 9.

It has been a long battle to get support at school but it is better now and he is finally making some progress. However home life continues to be very challenging. His default emotion for ANY stress, change or anxiety is anger. We have started reading 'the explosive child' but not finished it. It describes DS perfectly. He is so unable to deal with frustration.

My question is this: do I punish violence during a meltdown? DS had a spectacular one today and flicked socks in my face and then punched me in the back. I did not respond as I know it inflames him but when he punched me I calmly said "you have lost minecraft for tomorrow. Violence towards me is not tolerated". He is getting big and we felt as it is usually aimed at me we needed a no tolerance rule however is this against the explosive child method and should I just ignore? That feels wrong but I don't think the sanctions and consequences are making the slightest bit of difference.

Help! The holidays are proving very unhappy! We are beginning to consider medication for him but I don't know if that actually makes any difference to the levels of anger.

Thanks Polter. I am unsure about whether it was out of his control. Usually I would think it was but it seemed so intentional however it took a long time to calm him. I took him out (threatening withdrawal of screens if he didn't come) to the skate park to exercise it out as I could tell he wouldn't calm easily and he very much a trasher of rooms/aggressive. It all kicked off because he broke his glasses (probably in anger when we told him - with time warnings, that it was time to end computer) and denied it when asked about it then melted down insisting we never believed him and it was so unfair. There was no way anyone else did it though. He is still denying it. They were bent in half!

I agree meltdowns must be terrible and do think the explosive child is the way forward but everything involves negotiton, everything is argued. We are so weary of it all.

I used “Explosive Child” with DS (Asperger’s diagnosis) . I never felt right about letting DS get away with physical aggression because it was very easy for him to shrug off the effects of his aggression on other people (lack of empathy) but talking about punishments when he was already in meltdown tended to make things worse. The strategy I used was to say nothing at the time and just focus on getting everything calmed down, usually leaving DS by himself was the quickest way. I would punish physical aggression afterwards when he was calm and rational, because he would then accept punishment - he wouldn’t like it but he would listen to me and usually it wouldn’t provoke another meltdown. So when he had calmed down I would say “Earlier you threw things at me and punched me, that really hurt and punching people is a wrong thing to do. So you cannot use Minecraft tomorrow”. I would only give one punishment for a single meltdown even if it involved multiple attacks.

(I don’t have experience with medication so can’t help on that)

I always tend to think that living ds' life is punishment enough for him! I also think he knows what is acceptable behaviour and what is not; he just can't always comply with that. So if he is displaying violence or other unacceptable behaviour during a meltdown we tend to just focus on keeping him and everyone else safe, remove him to a safe place and let him calm down. No point in threatening punishments etc while he is mid meltdown as he has lost all capacity for rational thought, and it will only upset him more. Once he has calmed down we do discuss why certain behaviour is unacceptable and try to reinforce that he has a choice to get upset and angry about things or to remain calm (this is from the Dawn Huebner book "What to do when your temper flares" which we've been working on with him). But no consequences/punishments, no. They really don't achieve anything and are counter-productive IME.

ds is nearly 7 and has dxes of SPD, anxiety and ASD(PDA), btw.

I don't punish for behaviour that is quite clearly part of a fight or flight reaction. It would be more appropriate to greene's method to discuss this behaviour during a meltdown when he is actually calm and come to an agreement with him about what consequences, if any, would be appropriate.

Before ds (7, asd/pda/adhd) was prescribed meds we could never find a way to respond appropriately to his aggression. Any attempt at a consequence just resulted in an escalation of the situation,even if we waited til after hed calmed dow it would just flare straight back up. Trying to collaboratively probkem solve also failed.
I do think the explosive child is a fantastic book, but it did not help us to reduce ds' violence one bit because i think the reality for him is that without meds he was absolutely unable to resist the impulse to hit out no matter what.
Now that he has a much greater capacity for self controlwe are beginning to see some huge progress, and he has responded tobeing held in time out for his 7 min, he has not hit dd now for weeks when it used to be a daily occurence.

When ds used to have severe meltdowns he would become very aggressive and violent, people got hurt and things got broken. That can be excusable in a younger child but we recognised that as he got older he needed to learn how to control his responses for everyone's sake, not just his own.

It's true that at the height of a meltdown there is no reasoning with the child and the aim should be to help them calm. In ds's case, he would often have a mental blackout during the meltdown and lose awareness of the period when he was out of control - this included the minutes leading up to the meltdown so it was difficult to discuss with him the process that led to the aggressive incidents.

I'd never dole out blame or punishment while he was in meltdown but we had regular meetings during calmer periods in which we'd discuss the overall effect of his loss of control, the reasons why he would benefit from managing his temper more effectively, and strategies to do so. Part of this was getting him to understand that aggressive responses aren't tolerated by society, regardless of how badly a situation might make him feel - he needed to learn how to recognise the build up of frustration and take steps to prevent himself losing control. In time he learned that it was easier to be proactive and avoid getting into meltdown that to recover from one when he let it happen.

One way of doing this was by establishing a set of consequences for certain negative responses (including removal of privileges, toys etc) and a consistent approach to implementing them. These were set out during the meetings we had in calm time and agreed by ds (at times we even had 'contracts' to act as a visual reminder of what we'd agreed). The aim was that ds would learn to recognise his mounting anxiety and know when to take action - in practice this took a long time and on occasions I'd watch his mood escalating, giving space to notice for himself what was happening and at times intervening with guidance, eg "You seem to be beginning to get anxious - what might you do now to prevent it rising?). I'd also give reminders of what consequences might result if he didn't take action. In time (and I'm talking years) he did learn how to self-manage and hasn't had a meltdown in over five years.

I agree it's really hard and it does feel like giving in when you use a tool that might be regarded as a reward as a strategy for calming down. I found myself in that position frequently but whenever I did resort to allowing games etc it was always on the understanding that it was time-limited and for a specific purpose. Ds was incredibly manipulative (still would be, given the chance ) but I found it helped to be open and honest with him about necessary flexibility, my limited abilities, and above all the absolute certainty that if he wanted a place in society as an adult he HAD to learn how to control his temper. That message did get through eventually, but it was a bloody hard road getting there.

He's fifteen now and calm as anything. Nobody would ever guess he'd had such a massive temper problem. It does get better if you are patient and use the correct tools.

That's actually reassuring to me, streaky!

I think you've elaborated very well on how Fabulous needs to use Collaborative Problem Solving with her DS as a long term tool, rather than as a quick fix. I was on my iPad, when I posted, so couldn't face writing a lot, at the time!

Praise indeed - thank you .

To be honest it was quite straightforward in the early days, especially as ds was so keen to work on his problems and was very motivated. The hard part was when he started having better control of his anger and we consequently had fewer opportunities to practice 'anger management' - so he still blew up from time to time and couldn't remember the strategies that had become second nature to him at the beginning. So for us it was important not to be lulled into a false sense of security that he'd cracked it - there's still a lot of work to be done after the foundations are laid.

Fabulous, have you used The Incredible Five Point Scale? It was an invaluable tool for ds - I made dozens of charts based on his different interests (Doctor Who, Star Wars, Bionicle etc) and they really helped him understand the process of escalation and how to stop it happening, and to bring himself down afterwards if it did. We had a system that linked Five Point Scales, social stories, the weekly meeting and a set of six-monthly SMART targets to reach his goals, all of which were tweaked regularly to keep pace with his changing obsessions and keep him engaged.

Overall it helped ds to know that he had a lot of power and that managing his emotions was in his hands - he was working for himself, not other people. He learned that he could be happier if he followed a few simple rules and took responsibility for himself and his anger. My role was to facilitate this and make up the tools .

Can I offer a different perspecitve? I'm myself autistic and had violent meltdowns when I was a child and teen (I still become verbally aggressive but not physically). My parents would always punish me, sometimes physically, and it would escalate the situation. I think there is something inbetween letting your ds get away with violence and punishing it, namely making sure he compensates for the damage he did (after he's calm), for example by apologizing, helping clean up the mess he made, etc. I wouldn't wait too long to enforce such a consequence (eg. not withhold him hisi pocket money for destroying property if that's a few days away, bt if he's money saved you can ask him to pay after he's calmed). These kids tend to have difficulty with delayign gratification so when you wait several days to enforce a consequence they won't connect it to the original offence.

More important than punishment is making sure everyoen's safe. If he's physically aggressive, get hit o a place where he can't hurt anyone. In my experience, having been secluded in a psychiatric institution (for verbal aggression only) is that this is punishment toe.

When DS1's raging I make sure that he has no access to DS2 - I have to use myself as a bit of a shield. It also helps him to wind down a lot quicker as DS2 can't annoy him (by just existing) and he can't fan his own flames by pinning supposed offences on him. It helps that our hosue is long and thin, so if DS2 won't sit on a chair with me, I can at least position myself at a narrow point. I think he actually prefers isolation, Authentique. People are annoying. He often locks himself in the bathroom if he's about to lose it.

His last really physical one (talk of death and killing, objects flying, etc) was a couple of months ago, when a scheduled power cut didn't happen. He'd already worked out how he was going to deal with it and it was too much for him to deal with, after building himself up. I managed to isolate him in the kitchen and stuff was flying. He spontaneously started to help tidy up, once the red mist had gone, though. That was a first.

Gosh Ive only jujst now had this with DC. she suddenly had a meltdown and smashed up the lego house she was building. lego everywhere, and shes been stamping on them-theyre my childhood lego so im not having this. sent her out to sit on stairs for a few mins till she calms down and now shes putting lego back in boxes. angrily. muttering 'idiot, im gonna kill you,you're stupid,i hate you etc etc'.

Our I have to use myself as a shield too but it ends up with me getting bruised and battered but if dc punches a door or something I cant afford to fix it.

but I know in a whiole shell come with her tail between her legs and say sorry and hugs and kisses etc.

its so difficult isn't it?

I do have to remind myself that they're only words - and he tends to completely disown words he regrets, even if he says them when he's calm "that must have been someone else who looks like me". I also try to remind myself that things are just things, though that's no good if it's something that can't be replaced for any reason, whether sentimental or financial.

Hi OP. My dd is 8 and has violent rages too. It is HARD to witness as a parent to see your child so out of control. Dh is not sure about the explosive child book, but I have been using the methods with quite a lot of success.

I have stopped punishing, and talk/discuss much more. DD now accepts things aren't right, and is on board to try to control "the bad bit" of her brain that takes over. I have explained that during a rage, I need to keep her safe - which may involve physically restraining her. This of course does nothing to stop the rage, but it has given her boundaries and consequences within the rage. I can't really explain why this has seemed to work, but it has. It is horrible to implement, but it has worked well. She is now starting to recognise signs that may lead to an outburst, and we go for a walk and talk.

Although dd still gets angry very quickly, the violence is much less, and the self harm threats have (fingers crossed) stopped.

Using the Plan B method, we can discuss some situations before they happen, and using our own "keeping you safe" method has shortened the rages.

DD has yet to be diagnosed officially, but as everyone has to, we're kind of finding our own pathway through this and hoping for the best long-term outcome for our dd.

I think just keep trying different things until you stumble across a combination that works for you. Good luck.

Oh, and yes, we have a smashed up door, locks on the upstairs windows, and no 'nice' stuff in her bedroom. Or sharp stuff. :(

It is very hard isn't it. My ds has been having monumental meltdowns this week, lots of biting and punching. ouryve I had to laugh at "that must have been someone else who looked like me", just the sort of thing my ds says.

The worst incident this week was when ds bit his three year old brother. I am now beginning to hope that things might get better when school starts again, never thought I'd say that

Thank you all and sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this thread. The end of the holidays were awful and I was really low.

Polter - I have seen you mention the Alert program before. How did you get it ? Did you finance it or was it provided by school/OT etc? I think it would be excellent for DS1. He lacks awareness of his feelings and really needs help. It is one of his LSP targets but school aren't actually helping him constructively with it save providing him once with smiley/sad faces.

After my OP I dug out the Dawn Hubeur book about anger I had bought ages ago and DS and I started working on it. I think he realises he needs to change because it won't be tolerated as he gets older and the consequences will be so much more severe and long lasting. I think it will help him but it does need everyone to be on board. I will take it into school to show them too.

I have been lent the book the incredible 5 point scale. I have to admit that it is still under my bed unread but I will make it a priority to read. I agree with you all. We need to neogotiate and teach problem solving. Dolling out consequences and punishments are not working at all and we do realise that. And I can see this is going to be a long time-consuming process. It feels huge.

He seems much happier now school has started back but I can feel a meltdown brewing. Probably as a reaction to being back despite it being better for him IYKWIM. He still seems so tired too. The holidays haven't refreshed him.

It has also helped to read on these boards that other people struggle too. I don't mean that to sound quite so callous as it does! But everyone on here seems to manage so well and seems to calm and so many have much bigger challenges than me that I was feeling like a fraud and a total loser. Why was I finding my child such hard work when everyone else seems endlessly patient and tolerant and together? The thread about losing yourself really resonated. I am feeling increasingly isolated as the gap between DS1 and his peers grows larger. It's growing larger with my family too. Christmas really brought that into focus. DS1 wasn't invited to a special birthday party he would have loved to go to when other cousins were, because he is harder work I guess.

I need to get me one of those thicker skins.

Thank you all again. I really appreciate it

Sometimes, Fabulous the calmness is actually resignation. I have that way of going to my happy place while I deal with a 5 day long (and counting) meltdown. It involves wine and chocolate, lots of walking it off, and much obsessive organising.