ABA TV documentary - 5 Nov, 9pm, BBC Four

[sickofsocalledexperts]

Just to let anyone interested in ABA know that there is a BBC Four documentary coming up - Tuesday 5 Nov at 9pm. It is called Autism: Challenging Behaviour.

It features partucularly Treetops school, for the at least one mumsnetter on here who I think might be considering that school.

Nb - hope I am not contravening MN rules, but I have no vested interest in the programme, except being a big ABA fan and pleased that the message is finally getting out.

zzzz - I don't have much experience with HFA and can only speak for my daughter as an individual. I feel that for her, as a child who was very hard to reach and had no language at all ABA was the only thing that would have enabled her to learn.

The thing about children with ASD is that they often have very complex and uneven profiles so it's not even a case of being able to put them in a specific place from 'mild' to 'severe'.

Thank you bialy- That is interesting. That is how all chikldren should be taught, by not giving in to the tantrums. however I know from bitter experience that it is a lot easier to give in to my DD (SN) tantrums that to my DS (NT).

I think what we found more distressing was the 'do it again, do it again, do it again' nature of some of the interactions. The little boy in Norway who was being asked to copy the clapping etc. He just looked upset at doing it rather than tantruming and I admit I found it difficult to watch.

As I said I am not judging, I just wanted to try and understand what the aim of this was. Is it simply to get him to copy and then you can move on to other learning.

I don't know if I've explained myself well

I think that what a lot of specialist provisions don't seem to take on board is that a child who can't imitate will never be able to learn anything.

Personally, I think that you need to find people who will work well with your child and who are really good with kids. I don't personally think the practitioner in Sweden would have been very reinforcing for my dd but the tutors at the Treetops school were much more like the people she had working with her in the early days.

Prince, I can only speak about my dd's early programme, and the imitation trials she did.

In her case, she was so demand avoidant, and scared of trying in case she got something wrong (even when she did actually know the right answer/could do the task), her self confidence was through the floor.

She was asked to do a lot of easy imitation stuff at the table (and easy matching/posting/sorting) to increase her confidence. To help her see that there was nothing to worry about. to try to build a trusting relationship - that her tutor would not ask her to do anything she was not capable of doing. to try to get her to enjoy the things she could do, before moving on to doing more difficult tasks.

It didn't always work, of course. She stayed worried (and still does, 6 years later), and was not always comforted. But it did help to build the trust, and she did relax enough to make other learning less painful for her.

She still needs errorless learning now. And she still remains very anxious, and unable to answer if she feels she may be wrong. But it is improving.

It has the dual purpose of increasing compliance - she got used to doing as the tutor asked, since the task was so easy for her. It then became easier to slip in a couple of new simple small tasks to get her trying new things.

The quick fire imitation tasks also help to break down inflexible thinking - a chain of trials, all easy, but quickly asked and delivered, with no routine about it, cna help to train quick thinking and sudden changes of direction - to begin to expect the unexpected, in a way, iyswim?

It is a long time since I was involved in these type of trials (I can't believe it's been 6 years since we started ABA ), so I hope I have remembered correctly, and explained it well enough

Prince the aim would probably have been getting him to copy a 1 step, then 2 step, then 3 step sequence etc (teaching to imitate) and to build up his willingness to do what his Mum said.
You can then use this ability to imitate to move on to other skills.

Most children learn by imitating - they learn to imitate without this having to be specifically taught, so from babies they look around and take the world in and copy their caregivers - and later their friends. Look in any classroom - the child missed what the teacher says - leans over and looks at what the child next to them is doing and copies them.
So children learn all day every day by observing and copying. They learn from the minute they wake up to the minute they go to sleep.

DS and many with autism don't look around, aren't interested in what others are doing, don't know how to imitate or aren't bothered and don't want to do what Mum says.

So DS started ABA like this copying someone clapping, tapping their head etc. These skills are the easiest to teach as you can physically make the child clap their hands or tap their head so its a starting point not because you want them to know how to tap their head. For eg you can't make a child speak. So once you have taught them to pay attention, listen to you and copy you and they want to do it because they get a reward, then you use that 'window' you have created to teach other things like words, motor skills etc etc.

We used to have to teach everything by telling DS to 'copy me' but now he has more language we don't have to rely so much on imitation. He learnt to speak, use scissors, ride a bike and swim this way. He wouldn't be able to do any of things without being able to imitate as he couldn't understand a verbal instruction about for eg how to do breast stroke but he can now copy someone else doing it.

Not all ABA programs are the same and some providers do get it wrong and some tutors are not suitable for the role. This is a problem - it is down to you as a parent to monitor whether you think someone is getting results and whether the provider is making the right calls. People who leave gaps before prompting and don't use effective reinforcement enough and at the right times are causing more harm than good imo.

zzz I can obv only speak for my ds who is HF, and for whom ABA has been brilliant. But then I've heard it said that it's most suitable for those with more profound autism.

It's probably true that much depends on the suitability of the provider and the approach they take with your individual child, and without question the skill of the tutors.

That's probably why I liked the Swedish guy actually, as he reminded me of our consultant (and the boy was HF too) - think it really misrepresented what he was driving at just to include a snapshot of him saying that he wanted to 'fight' autism. I wouldn't have thought he meant he was trying to 'cure' it - just that he could see how to address some of the more disabling aspects of the condition (eg not being able to communicate, self-harm, and other barriers to learning). I hate the fact that if you do this you are seen by some as somehow wanting to deny your child has autism. I love my son for exactly who he is, and of course the autism is part of that, but that doesn't mean I am happy not to try and teach him.

Zzzzz, the way I see it, is that ANY teaching will result in capable children with mild impairments and no LD doing better and faster than children with more severe difficulties.

So a Child with HF ASD will fly through an ABA programme much faster. The thing is, a HF child may also be able to be taught a bit more easily other ways, though arguable slower without the detailed individualised nature of an ABA programme, though this 'slower' pace is more likely to be deemed 'adequate' by LAs.

There is the additional issue of massive lack of expertise in ABA at the higher functioning end, especially with higher level language disorders. But it does exist.

I watched this last night. It gave me a lot to think about. I was a bit distracted by how similar to Jack my own little boy is. I will have to name change again, anyone who knows me can't have missed that. Think I am going to let it all float around my head for a week and then watch it again. I'm enjoying reading everyone's comments too.

Thanks for all the info on this thread. I'm not a regular poster, but a lurker, and the info is relevant to my dc.

I wanted to ask something. A surprising number of mothers I know have become teaching assistants, and are expected to "help" children with autism in the classroom. However, they have had zero training or even guidance about what to do, or what autism is, or anything. And some of their attitudes towards learning difficulties are truly shocking. How on earth is that happening in mainstream schools? Not only are they not doing ABA, they are not doing anything remotely planned or thought-out. They just "help" in whatever clueless way they see fit.

This is typical of mainstream provision, huph unfortunately. Many, many TAs are not qualified to help the children that they are assigned to and don't get any support from anyone either. It is happening because LEAs would prefer to pay minimum wage to unqualified people rather than buying in the provision that the child actually needs, but at greater cost.

What agnes said

Zzzz you are not the only one with sausage envy. I felt a deep longing when Jack bit into that sausage. My son's diet is far from ideal but the limited range of good he does eat probably ensures he gets what he needs. Watching that last night made me feel that I could challenge him further. I think kids not eating properly goes right to the core of you as a parent and invites judgey-pantyness at its best.

zzzz my own completely unscientific view is that it works best for children who need direct teaching to learn things and do not pick up skills themselves or lack motivation to learn. Anecdotally it seems to me it works better for those with classic autism not aspergers. But across the IQ range of classic autism from high to low.

many children at the mild end / aspergers do learn independently. Often their difficulties are not picked up until late primary or later. So they are self motivated learners. They do imitate. They do talk before they are 3. These Aspie types seem to me the adults who are most anti-ABA and most of the view autism is a difference not a disability.

I see a huge difference between this group and DS who before ABA and in the early years of ABA learnt nothing unless it was directly taught by an adult sat in front of him rewarding him to do it. He is very passive - maybe that is the main factor - the passivity - that and the interfering nature of his stimming which excludes any other learning - he is just so happy doing it. He is classed as moderate classic autism - but his IQ is normal. I would say his autism is severe and its only his IQ that shoves him into the moderate range on tests. But on the basis of his IQ some would say he is HFA.

The adults who have had ABA and are positive about it seem to me to be the ones with the classic type of autism - not the asperger type - the ones with no speech at 3-4, and who recognise without ABA or similar types of intensive intervention they would not have gained skills and would not have achieved the quality of life they have. The ones who can remember they did not speak in sentences until 7 or 10. Temple Grandin is a case in point who credits ABA type approaches to her good outcome. But she is HFA not Aspergers (no speech at 3)

So I think it works best for children who need direct teaching and need external motivation to learn whatever their IQ. I get quite annoyed at those adults with aspergers who have got university degrees etc saying ABA is cruel and anti-autism etc. I don't see how given they learn easily - sometimes precociously - they can claim to have much of an insight into what it is like not to be able to learn basic skills for oneself.

I heard Ros Blackburn (HFA not Aspie) talk about how it took years of repetition for her mother to teach her to put a duvet cover on but even once she learnt that it didn't mean she knew how to do the pillowcase. That she knew only what she had been taught. If it hadn't been taught, she didn't know it. To me thats the difference between classic autism and aspergers, even if the person ends up HFA and writing books and giving lectures. And thats why intensive intervention is essential for autism - but perhaps less helpful / more resented for Aspergers.

I guess I don't really know what those with autism and SLD think about it.

Interesting thoughts, Agnes.

wrt how those with autism and LDs think about it, I can only reference dd.

she has severe autism, and moderate LDs. she is far happier now than ever before, and certainly much happier at this school (and her last) than the ones before that.

She is still processing much of what happened to her during those other placements, and will come out with sentences that take me right back (she rememebred a nickname we used to call her, and told me "i'm not X I'm dd", and remembered some things which happened in a previous placement and we have talked them through.

We visited the town of her previous placement, and as we turned off the motorway, she said 'no more X school', and was very anxious until it was apparent we were going to the town centre not X school (we used to live there, so she recognised the route to town) - all the way around the shops she kept saying 'no more X school, all finished now'.

whereas now she lives to go to school. she has her school year memorised and will quiz me about holidays and breaks (she knows them far better than me ). Much as she enjoyed being on holiday at half term, the biggest joy for her has been going back to school and sharing her photos with her tutors.

the difference in her when she is not at school is enormous (we could do a lot more at home to help her as we completely lack any kind of routine), and she is a lot calmer and basically happier during term time.

if I ask her if she likes school she says yes, and it will certainly be interesting to see and hear her thoughts on this as she progresses. I have a feeling she will end up like the boy in the programme - watching home videos of how she used to be, and feeling uncomfortable as she cannot recognise or reconcile with how she is now

DS remembers his very bad PECS training. He said 'every time I said 'crisp' they gave me a biscuit'.

Lol

I would give anything for DS4 to talk, sign, do more PECS. It's all very much on his terms. Things are improving this term as he's been moved into a class of "talkers". He can now put on his own socks. He's nearly 7. Major milestone.

I've written lots about ABA so am not going to add more but I have some thoughts about people with high functioning autism. Whilst I do not for a minute deny this exists, I find it difficult to listen to people explain in a logical and coherent and socially acceptable manner about how they find certain sociable rituals difficult as the dark haired woman did last night.

Isn't that true for us all?
I spend vast swathes of my life listening too, nodding, smiling, making eye contact and feigning interest in all sorts of situations, people and things that I really have no interest in whatsoever. It's called getting along with other people.

That Scottish woman annoyed me too - she had never gone near an ABA programme, so was a bit irrelevant to an ABA documentary

I think that for people with Aspergers it's understandable that they don't want to change and there is no reason why they should if they are happy and can live independently. But they have been able to develop language and a way of life for themselves on their own without intervention.

My daughter and others with severe autism aren't even able to have an opinion about what they want and could not make any choices without ABA. As someone from Treetops said on the documentary, these children don't even know what they are saying no to. To be fair the woman with Aspergers did say that she could not speak for those with profound autism.

I remember Auriol Drew saying of my dd 'She's actually bored because she doesn't know how to use her time productively.' I don't buy that stimming is ok for a child to do or even comforting when it is literally all day long. It's ok if it's done at appropriate times and if the child can stop and do something else. But when it goes on all day and the child cannot do anything else then it frustrates them from what I saw of my dd.

I asked my hf DSD if she minded that we stopped her stim when she was little. "No" she said, and when I asked why she said "cos I don't want to look different in front of my friends". She reports no anxiety at all from stopping it

zzzz you could probably do it yourself tbh. Could use a simple system of reinforcing every time he tries something new. Start with tiny pieces of one new food, starting with putting it on the table. When he's accepted that, reward (instantly). Then on his plate, again reward instantly when he accepts it. If he accepts a tiny, tiny piece to eat, give him massive reward (instantly). Then work up from there.

You can fade out the reinforcers differentially, in line with how successfully he accepts new foods. Ie the demands start off small and rewards start off huge, then gradually swap the ratio.

The reinforcer would be anything you think would give him instant gratification. If his biggest reinforcer is somehing that can't be given instantly (eg 5 mins of computer games, outside play or something) you could try a token system, so he gains a token each time he tries new food - start off with say 3 tokens = reward, then gradually increase the number of tokens needed in line with how quickly he masters it.

Could you see that working?