Catching more flies with honey... (problem solving)

[BeeMom]

You may have heard the adage "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" and i have definitely found this is true, particularly dealing with the officious gints we encounter on this unusual journey that we are taking.

When I need something for the dcs, I try to do as much of the footwork for the "other party" as possible. I come to the meeting/discussion with the problem clearly defined and several potential solutions, including what I need to contribute, what they need to contribute, and what we can do together.

I know what is absolutely non-negotiable from my viewpoint, and where that does not match up with their non-negotiable points.

I also try and wrap my head around how I will react and what steps are next if my contributions are ignored or rebuffed. Surprisingly enough, I don't need to go into that "fallback" position very often.

I always try to remind myself that we do likely have the same goals (but very different motivations and limitations). Above all, I do my best to avoid becoming defensive or adversarial, not demanding or rigid, and I never expect to get my way (that way, it is a really nice surprise when I do).

I have lots of friends who ask how we manage to stay sane through all these challenges - and frankly I think that this is a big reason. We generally get what we ask for - not necessarily in the format we have requested, and definitely not right when we ask, but we eventually find a way to accomplish what we need.

I have come along to support friends at meetings, and seen how things go right down the plug hole as soon as they start to lose their temper, demand instead of ask, say where things are wrong instead of looking at the positive first... and once the first negative personal comments ("you are not doing..." "you are failing...") come out, the meeting might as well be over.

Maybe it is because a million years ago in my professional life, it was my job to work with people in exceptionally stressful situations, first as a paramedic, then working in mental health services. While I do find the lead-up to the meetings stressful, I rarely walk out of a meeting wanting to do away with every other person in the room.

However... there are still those days where you desperately want to hurl the vinegar bottle and watch the damn flies scatter... how do you manage to get through those times without damaging relationships permanently with the people you have to work with?

Exactly. If the honey works great, but there's no point slopping it on if the flies just lap it up and continue playing in shit with your child!

And if it doesn't work, it's not because we haven't been nice enough or polite enough or articulate enough or decent enough.

Sometimes, if it looks like shit, and smells it like shit, it's probably shit.

Oh zzzzz, that sounds so good!

Bringing the thread back to the original question:

"How do you get through those times without permanently damaging relationships with those you have to work with"

I've been thinking about it a lot. Relationships between dc with SN & parents & professionals often degenerate into the classical victim-rescuer-abuser triangle. The pattern can shift around, a bit, occasionally it even kicks off to the extent that all 3 parties become casualties (victims).

Therapists usually teach that "The only way to win is to refuse to play the game". But if parents don't try to help victimised child we feel like co-abusers.

Very often, IE and star are right, the relationship can be so very abusive, that the fight is unavoidable. If only as a way to avoid compounding the abuse by collusion and denial. BeeMom's approach reminds us that society's disregard for dc with SN shouldn't be taken out on professionals who are trying (often poorly) to be co-rescuers of our dc.

So: encourage the good (honey), and be open and trustworthy throughout, regardless of provocation. when you can stand it no longer, give a warning then explain what you're going to do and why. Then fling the vinegar bottle. Aiming at the shit, not at the flies. And help clear up afterwards. The relationships worth keeping will recover.

For the most part, I go the "honey" route, which IMO makes the "vinegar" route all the more noticeable when I do pull it out. I would like to think that most of those we've dealt with (professionals, I mean) realise that I'm happy to cooperate, however I have limits and I expect them to be fully accountable for things that are their responsibility.

I generally stick with "you play fair with me, I'll play fair with you." The biggest fight I think that we have had was with the LA when we were trying to get DS into a specific SS and the LA wanted him in MS, even though DS's teachers, senco, headteacher, paediatrician, OT (and various personnel at the suggested SS) agreed that the SS could meet his needs and that he would be best off attending the SS. The LA said no. We were very clear that we would push it all the way, and after tribunal date set and one meeting with the LA already, they finally gave in and agreed. So not as huge a fight as many on here have had. And I was so stressed and exhausted after it all, I just can't imagine the ongoing stress other parents have had.

I'll be the first to admit, we have been VERY VERY LUCKY. And that's a shame, as I know of some in the same LA/area that haven't been. It's so frustrating.

I always try to explain where I am coming from too e.g. can you always send me a copy of your report before you circulate it? I am sure you would anyway, but we have had some terrible experiences with therapists who don't and end up circulating incorrect information etc etc

Often the shit and the flies are so close, you cant help but to hit a few flies while aiming for the shit.

Claw, you're right. But if the flies choose not to move...

Zzz :-)
Maybe the honey will give them a taste for better food...

"How do you get through those times without permanently damaging relationships with those you have to work with"

Honey and keeping relationships going is all well and good, however when you have professionals giving 'inaccurate' info and not being truthful, refusing to communicate with you etc, etc.

For example saying that a service has been provided when you know for a fact it hasn't. When you have Freedom Requested and even asked for evidence formally in writing and been met by a brick wall.

Why would you want to keep the relationship going? For some, this is how it turns out and as zzzz says, you have to run far, far away. Draw a line in the sand, move on, start again. Sometimes even this isn't enough, as the smell of shit follows you.

Then what?

It takes two to tango. You can't flog a dead horse.

Keeping relationships sweet might have a cost for your child. You would start with the assumption that it doesn't and go from there.

It is absolutely essential that you praise good practice when you see it and also effort, even if that effort is that persons job. However you do have to be careful that a 'thank you' doesn't get turned against you and used in evidence in a tribunal to demonstrate that you were once happy with a service you never were.

that's the point we are all only speaking from our own experience, I truly appreciate that I have had the good fortune to be able to work with ds2's school, LEA, SEN officer & medical professionals to ensure he is happy & making progress at school.
I completely get that this isn't the case for everyone.
I thought the OP was saying, look this is how I've played it, its worked for me & then asking what do you do when it still all becomes too much.
I didn't read her post or intend mine to undermine anyone else's experience

There are professionals that we have parted company with along the way, but even when they were not being constructive & having no positive impact on ds2's life I still don't believe their goal was to have a negative impact just to save the pennies, we just had a different idea of what was in ds2's best interest.
It is sad & fckign disgraceful that LEA's continue to operate in anything but the childs best interest but it is just not my experience.

Well I absolutely hate the cynicism in this thread. I've had a relatively good experience over the last 14 years with assorted professionals from various "areas". Yes there has been the odd chocolate teapot, but on the whole my experience dealing with professionals who see my 3dc with SEN/SN has been good.

I've name changed due to not wanting to out myself, I have worked with two neighbouring LEA, the smaller one i received thank you cards and even flowers and chocolates, the larger one it was mainly upset parents leading to anger. The difference was provision the smaller LEA never fully got involved with the inclusion policy (mainly due to cost) the larger LEA closed special schools and merged others. I know MLD school now having HFA children they should not be there it is not the correct peers but if mainstream fails the parents have little choice. Provision or lack of often govern the parents behaviour.

Weller, exactly.

Rubbish provision makes children suffer, and make it hard for professionals to do an adequate job,

Wave 1: School X shuts so professionals can't assist much and then parents get cross. Wave 2: professionals get upset at criticism, forget council badguy shut School X, and start blaming parents. Wave 3: parents upset at this, also forget who shut School X

Sallybear - isn't that rather the point? YOU have had a good experience. I can accept that and I am pleased for you.

Others have not. Why does that make them cynical?

I worry that parents who have had really bad experiences have very few places to go where they can share this safely without being accused of being at fault in some way - or of being cynical.

I am a grown up with a responsible job, who has been through some very tricky things in life and work but the way I was treated was devastating because it affected my child.

It was poor practice and it affected my child and still does.

Yet, my LA will tell me, in writing, how everyone else things there swell.

I am not fragile enough for this to make me think it was my fault., I know what happened and I can see the written evidence of it.

But it will further isolate some parents.

Speak of the good you have encountered but please let others speak of the bad.

I have tried to be fair in my dealings with the La and I have also tried to pick my battles. There has been things I have not been v happy with at school, but I have held back to maintain the good relationship. There have of course been times when things have been quite tense with the local authority but I have tried to keep it non personal as much as possible. I appreciate that this isn't the case for everyone but I suppose the key is to always approach a new person or service with a positive approach. I remember the senco at my dd school telling me that there was always surprise expressed when she told them that I was v supportive and v easy to deal with! senco was great, v down to earth and v caring which made it easier to overlook stuff when things went wrong. I suppose when you have had experience of professionals acting unprofessionally and making it personal this makes you defensive. I don't blame people for that. I can see totally how that might happen.

I have had both the good and the bad within the same LA, and believe me if I stayed honey coated and sweet our LA walk all over you.
DS is now getting the support he needs and deserves only because I'm no longer seen as a knowledge less pushover (an ex LA worker told me this personally).
This shouldn't be the case but that's the reality for kids like mine in this area.

Morning all haven't been on here in donkies I occasionally just lurk these days after one of my posts ( under another name) asking for some advice was met with the worst animosity I have ever seen and I left feeling sick to my stomach before sinking into a corner with the " world's worst special needs mum" badge attached to my lapel.
So I haven't read any of the posts yet just the heading but am glad positivity has found it's way back onto the site. It would be so easy for us as a family to retell negative experiences we have had many but being positive reaps rewards. I am a firm believer of chose your battles wisely don't fight fight demand everything give and take ask nicely and if that fails then a nice friendly polite email copying in the right people. If that fails then we take things to a complaint level it takes a lot to get us here but if it does happen it shows that we are normally fair and reasonable people who it takes a lot to rile so our complaint is of a serious nature. This has worked well for us after a stint where I complained about everything and was very confrontational this got us nowhere and my health suffered.

I just remind myself stay positive as this helps my children stay calm I let my husband deal with any complaints ( which are few) as I am easily stressed and this doesn't make for a calm happy house and holy crap we have enough stresses here.

I and some others on here have had terrible experiences and the one thing that strikes me is that in face of it all, despite everything, they are some of the most positive, calm people i know on here.

The implication that the parents who have had bad experiences are losing their tempers, screaming and shouting and banging tables etc, isn't accurate.

I and the others i mention, deal with stress and problems extremely effectively, without emotion, we have had to. We deal with problems, in a calm, professional manner.

We have been handed lemons, yet we are still trying to make lemonade.

Oh no Claw how awful who implied that? I was hoping those sort of negative posters had gone :-( Was hoping to read all the posts later but from your comment I am assuming it's a grim read so might give it a wide berth. Am in a positive mood today and all is calm don't want to depress myself. Thanks for the heads up.

Mmm, well, again, I am glad that your approach led to a positive outcome.

For me it was:

-stay calm,

• ask politely,
• when my son was without provision for 5 months and everyone was ignoring my polite requests, escalate it to a complaint
• have complaijnts ignored
• provision still not in place

-find yourself branded vexatious 2 weeks before a Tribunal by an LA trying to cover up this lack of provision

• receive reports from LA services for Tribunal pretending they have been delivering provision when they had not
• withdraw child from school due to lack of support and lying adults

I am not mad or negative. With a son out of school for the third time in third years, I just get on and work and address issues practically and positively.

But we have had an appalling, traumatic experience which has left us without money for holidays etc as we have had to consistently cover gaps in provision ourselves despite what is in the statement.

So this was not my fault for not being positive or nice enough. I was not 'asking for it' and neither was my son.

I cannot understand why those who have been fortunate to have an LA respond properly to concerns are so quick to disregard and dismiss those who have not as if it is somehow their fault or criticise them for 'negativity'.

Are we really having some kind of 'deserving poor' type argument here? How appalling.