Catching more flies with honey... (problem solving)

[BeeMom]

You may have heard the adage "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" and i have definitely found this is true, particularly dealing with the officious gints we encounter on this unusual journey that we are taking.

When I need something for the dcs, I try to do as much of the footwork for the "other party" as possible. I come to the meeting/discussion with the problem clearly defined and several potential solutions, including what I need to contribute, what they need to contribute, and what we can do together.

I know what is absolutely non-negotiable from my viewpoint, and where that does not match up with their non-negotiable points.

I also try and wrap my head around how I will react and what steps are next if my contributions are ignored or rebuffed. Surprisingly enough, I don't need to go into that "fallback" position very often.

I always try to remind myself that we do likely have the same goals (but very different motivations and limitations). Above all, I do my best to avoid becoming defensive or adversarial, not demanding or rigid, and I never expect to get my way (that way, it is a really nice surprise when I do).

I have lots of friends who ask how we manage to stay sane through all these challenges - and frankly I think that this is a big reason. We generally get what we ask for - not necessarily in the format we have requested, and definitely not right when we ask, but we eventually find a way to accomplish what we need.

I have come along to support friends at meetings, and seen how things go right down the plug hole as soon as they start to lose their temper, demand instead of ask, say where things are wrong instead of looking at the positive first... and once the first negative personal comments ("you are not doing..." "you are failing...") come out, the meeting might as well be over.

Maybe it is because a million years ago in my professional life, it was my job to work with people in exceptionally stressful situations, first as a paramedic, then working in mental health services. While I do find the lead-up to the meetings stressful, I rarely walk out of a meeting wanting to do away with every other person in the room.

However... there are still those days where you desperately want to hurl the vinegar bottle and watch the damn flies scatter... how do you manage to get through those times without damaging relationships permanently with the people you have to work with?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Yes, thanks for me too, though I reckon it is probably what I am trying to achieve with dd but failing miserably.

And thanks zzzzz for your kind words. I read the post back myself and thought 'really?' But the sad thing there is more, quite a bit more. But for now it is peaceful. Do I rest or do I use my new found time to fight for others?

[bochead]

What followed you?

Can I pm you? The worst event that happened to me was due to unfounded rumors about my "lifestyle". I've said I'm not confrontational, but I'm so offended by them that I will kick off if those follow me (probably via some torturous hideously expensive legal route), as they are VERY untrue iykwim.

[inappropriatelyemployed]

MumudeLulu - I absolutely agree on the adaptive response bit. I also think that, if you have achieved what you feel your child needs, it is easier to perceive your LA benignly and to attribute your outcome to your own persuasive powers of negotiation.

Many of us on here have had an awful, awful time at the hands of our LAs (incl Star and Boc and me) and we did not ask for it or encourage it by our own actions. This is tantamount to blaming the victim - 'your skirt's too short, what did you expect?' etc

I have held legal and policy jobs at the highest level where the utmost diplomacy was required. I have sat in meetings with MPs and had to argue complicated points in the politest possible way. I have advised on pragmatic policy approaches for NGOs. I spent years in courts using persuasive arguments. I am well-skilled at negotiation, research, preparation, and clear headed diplomacy.

But ALL of this is threatening to my LA. It is the very fact that I am able to put together a well-reasoned point and argument that makes me threatening and they bite back with a vengeance.

In fact, I know parents who rant and rave (and I don't blame them, they need support not condemnation) and the LA will deal with that happily all day. One parent I know regularly sent 'please help my son' emails with attached newspaper cuttings of ASD issues daily to the head of sen. The LA can deal with that until the cows come home so ignored him.

Me? Letters pressing home my son's legal entitlement to provision and the fact that the LA were in legal breach of their duty to arrange provision resulted in a determination that I was vexatious which was then circulated to everyone dealing with my son. When we moved schools, the new head was rung up and told about it. Luckily, he could see I was a perfectly reasonable person and school have supported my son ever since.

I just think if you have got what you want, and had a reasonably good experience, great! I am happy for you and wouldn't doubt what you say. But please don't attribute other people's bad experiences to them 'asking for it' somehow.

That is just offensive beyond belief.

[inappropriatelyemployed]

Beemom, I have just realised that you are not in the UK, are you?

I wonder if this makes a difference to your experience?

Absolutely not a criticism, I just genuinely wonder if different systems are better. That might have been something to consider when proposing new legislation.

[MumuDeLulu]

IE, my dc has almost nothing of what is needed, despite my honeyed words. I'm not criticising the decisions of those who had to stand and fight the authorities. If I thought we had any chance, I'd be copying you. My posts are an attempt to explain the behaviour of those (like us) with very poor odds of winning the fight at the moment.

Pending escape, or the intervention of a powerful outsider, some unarmed hostages stand a better chance of surviving if we sweet-talk the captors. The danger is of giving up, of losing hope whilst biding our time and waiting for a chance.

[BeeMom]

I live in Canada, where there are NO independent specialist schools, NO public funding for them, or publicly maintained specialist schools, so no amount of table banging will get them.

If you go back to the original post, I was actually asking for advice, which Mumu kindly offered - before the train derailed.

I honestly regret starting the topic - suggesting that I am blaming mothers is ridiculous and insulting, and I think that I'll recede into the Land of Lurk for a while, as unless you are ready to go hammer and tongs against your LA, you don't fit.

Maybe when things fall apart and I am unable to negotiate, compromise and reason with the individuals that work with me to support my children, then I'll be welcome.

Again, mea culpa.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Isn't it true that parents of children diagnosed before school age get a lump sum to spend on therapy? I have a couple of friends with children who have ASD that say they got this, and that Canada is much faster at dx in the first place.

If that is true, then the overall culture is one of support and early intervention is real, if under-funded, rather than a charade of pretence.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Have to add that how you are treated as a parent when you first get a diagnosis kind of sets the tone.

If it is 'oh well, bad luck, bye' then the parent has no choice but to start to find out their children's rights.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

This is a document I was sent re Ontario which I could only dream was the attitude and recommendations in the UK.

The focus is on accountability, evidence-based practice and generally high expectations for children with ASD.

I'm certain that families face all kinds of problems on their journeys, but with this document as their backdrop is nothing short of a dream here.

[Bluebirdonmyshoulder]

Beemom please don't disappear into the Land of Lurk! I really value your posts and your wise insights and think MNSN would be a much poorer place without you.

I've only just seen this thread and think it's taken an unfortunate turn. I'm sure that if your experience has been one of mainly honey then it's nevertheless massively frustrating when it goes all vinegar-y! I have had this on a small scale and it felt like a slap in the face, that something I thought was agreed was not in fact acted upon.

My experience has been mainly honey although I'm aware bluechick is still v young and we haven't had the joys of statementing yet. My approach has been a mixture of how you describe yours but I've also been demanding, rigid, angry and tearful at times! Can't say there's been any coherent strategy though, droends on my mood and the situation! So who knows what works - I certainly don't take all the credit as we've been v lucky in some of the profs we've had.

Don't know what I'm saying really. Just know I didn't take any offence at your post and saw it as just a plea for advice. But this is so hard and we're all just doing our best.

Please do 't go Beemom and I hope one of our threads getting a bit heated remains the rare event that it is.

[BeeMom]

Star - no, not true... certainly not in all provinces. Bee was diagnosed at 2y5mo and we have been waitlisted for any access to funds since that day.

It is a pretty document, but was a report from a reference group - not a single recommendation has become practice. I live in Ontario, with no access to ABA for either of my children with ASD, no respite, and no support aside from what I have negotiated for them or learned to do myself. As for lump sum... I would have loved to get in on that train.

Surely you have seen government publications in the UK that look beautiful but are absolute balls? This is one of those (and also 6 years old - there have been 2 complete changes of government since that time, and a total financial collapse. This is the same government that arbitrarily decided to cut funding for medical devices by 1/3 without notifying the users... thus requiring patients to reuse sterile urinary catheters, feeding pump giving sets etc that are not intended for reuse.

The wait list in our part of the province from referral to first assessment, depending on age, is 18 months minimum, but for older (school age) children, in excess of 3 years.

I live in Southern Ontario, so live this - and the document you posted is a pipe dream of the highest order.

[BeeMom]

Because what Star asked was Isn't it true that parents of children diagnosed before school age get a lump sum to spend on therapy? I was merely answering the question... and explaining that the document she referred to was a report to the government suggesting actions, not a report from the government outlining what is already in place.

In saying I could only dream was the attitude and recommendations in the UK she was suggesting that provision in Ontario was superior to what is available in the UK, both financially, and academically - I was clarifying that, living here, it actually isn't.

But why I am defending myself... I don't know. Sucker for punishment, perhaps?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Beemom I'm sorry that document is just a pipedream. My friends with the grants live in British Columbia, not Ontario, and were hoping the Ontario model (in that document) would come to them.

I didn't entirely expect it to be full practice, as I know the National Autism Plan is not in this country, but that document does go much further than the UK one so I was hopeful that bars were raised generally, if not to the level the document implies.

But zzzzz is right. It doesn't matter.

What matters to me however, is raising awareness of just how impossible it is for some parents in some LAs to have anything except years of hell for simply asking reasonable questions of provision.

Those years of hell that follow are not their fault, because when they start out they are only asking for what they understand their child needs and what their LA promises. The expectations in many LAs in this country is that parents should be unquestioningly grateful and humble for getting anything at all regardless of it's legal basis or appropriateness.

The idea that those parents DESERVE years of hell for not having an evangelical faith in the system is one that appears to be prevalent at least in the LA I left. It's this view that isolates parents, undermines them and takes up hours of their time in defence and justifications and the writing of clarification documents to demonstrate reasonableness in even a brighter light.

[claw2]

Things I have learnt along the way.

Professionals don't like complaints being made (regardless of how valid they are). Game over.

Professionals are not always truthful. Game over.

Most professionals stick together. Game over.

Parents knowing their rights. In my experience some professionals use this to show other professionals (educational professionals to show non educational professionals who have no idea about the 'system') just how obsessed you are, how unreasonable and wont take no for an answer. Game over.

Parents applying for SA. Game over.

Professionals like to blame parents, instead of spending money or support, if at all possible. Particular with 'hidden' disabilities.

It is impossible to negotiate the 'system' without having to do any of the above AND manage to get the support for your child.

[inappropriatelyemployed]

"Pending escape, or the intervention of a powerful outsider, some unarmed hostages stand a better chance of surviving if we sweet-talk the captors. The danger is of giving up, of losing hope whilst biding our time and waiting for a chance."


A clever analogy! But if you are being tortured by your captures, sweet talking doesn't necessarily increase your risk of survival!! You might die whilst in captivity and with that knowledge, you might choose that finding a means of escaping unnoticed or chiselling a tool to effect your escape is your only option.

That tool, I think, is the law and specifically judicial review and legal aid in the child's name!

[mymatemax]

Beemom, I agree with your post, i'm not sure if its maybe because I have evolved my approach from birth & because ds2 had issues from birth I have never had to approach a meeting and try to convince the others in the room that my child is "different"
Its not to say that I have never had to justify my sons needs etc, of course we have had to fight.
& yes I do believe we all have the same goal, yes the LEA, PCT, NHS etc are working within tight budgetary controls but I do still believe 10yrs down the line that actually they do want to do the right thing.
I think there will always be a difference between what I would love my child to have in an ideal world & what the LEA, PCT believe my child really needs, it is about compromise & finding the middle ground.

[inappropriatelyemployed]

Actually, I don't work on the basis of 'what I would love my child to have in an ideal world' but on what constitutes an adequate education for him within the law.

There is no middle ground with my LA as they consistently fail to fund his provision and leave him out of school without support. That is not changed by 'sweet talking', diplomacy or compromise

My LA do things one way and have no measurement of whether this works or not, it's just the way it is done and it is the cheapest.

So I am really glad you have found the system to be fair to you, and I believe in some cases with some LAs it can be, and I can say that because I would not extrapolate from my experience a lesson that applies to yours.

So, all I would say is that broad pronouncements that everyone should act in a certain way to achieve the desired goal based on one's own personal experience undermines the experience of others.

We are not all the same, our LAs are not all the same, and we should stop blaming 'victims' or decrying them as 'asking for an ideal world' if they don't get the provision they need for their child.

[notsurprisedanymore]

Claw -I totally agree!
I have had to complain along the way and the school and professionals hate it (even threatening to sue me for libel/slander at one time).
It is terrible when you think they are being supportive and then get to see all the records that show what was really going in behind the scenes .
They don't feel that they are accountable to anyone though so just carry on doing what they want. I have been told numerous times that everything is being done in the child's best interests yet the actions lead to major distress. It's criminal really.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I think it is very unfair to suggest that parents on here or elsewhere are expecting anything more than the law upheld, or for LAs own public-facing policies to be adhered to.

Most of the parents on here who have become fighters have done so, not because their children aren't getting something they should, but because of the damaging effects of neglect at best and abuse at worst, on their child and family. That is the context for most who have given the honey approach they're all and seen their child suffer not just continually, but more severely.

[bochead]

4 years from 1st referral to that all-important assessment here beemom. Took 18 months to get the first referral before that. DS was one of the lucky ones!

My sibling has a SN, & my parents experience was nothing like mine has been in a different LA, despite the profs not having 1/2 the info available they do nowadays. Children with different specific SN's to my own child's are treated verywell in my LA. We are living proof of what it's like to be on the wrong end of a post code lottery!

My Mum was a SN teacher for over 40 years and never witnessed anything like that which she's had to endure watching her own grandchild suffer.

However, I'm about to start out with a new LA, where I will once more start out with the honeyed approach, simply because I feel more comfortable with that, than being FORCED into any kind of confrontation. (When your child is physically assaulted and able to tell you, by a person you know is often put to care for the non-verbal you HAVE to speak out & say "this is wrong and it must not happen again", or it becomes hard to look at your own face in the mirror each morning)

I suppose I'm trying to say that I agree with beemom's advice, with the caveat that sometimes it just isn't possible to employ pure honey and protect your child from harm.

We care for the most vulnerable in society, and that means that we have a duty to advocate for them sometimes, even if we find the experience of doing so unpleasant.