SEN Panel Forced School Move?

[fizzbump]

DS2 (7 yrs) has statement due to behaviour at mainstream school. DS1 (13 yrs) has ADHD & ODD and ds2 is copying his older brothers home behaviours in school. Have recently started a CAF to get help with ds1, as despite numerous requests to SC, I'm basicaly told theres nothing they can do each time. ds2 school put him on 2 hr timetable 18 months ago which I had to seek legal advice to get him back in full time.
So now they're trying to force a move to 'special' school for ds2. He has no problems in any other situation other than school, i use 1,2,3 magic strategy at home to good effect, no ADHD or other issues. EP states the behaviours his brother displays are impacting, but school want to send him to a school were these behaviours are apparent in most of the students and think that this will help??
ds1 attended the school for 2.5 years and I regularly attended parents groups, etc so have had lots of experience as to events there. Advice needed please

What is the SEN panel doing?

What IS an SEN panel anyway?

So, if I'm reading correctly:

You have 2 DS's. One has diagnosed SEN (ADHD & ODD). One does not have diagnosed SEN, but does have an EBD statement.

The school came to the end of their coping strategies 18 months ago, and as a last resort measure, put him on a restricted timetable. You weren't happy, so got legal advice and they were forced to return to full time schooling.

Now, 18 months later, they've got to the end of their coping strategies, despite a statement, and they are looking for a managed move to a Special School.

You are concerned that it will expose him to other children who have similar behaviours as your DS1, who DS2 is mimicing?

Do you think that your DS is simply copying your DS1?
What more do you think his current school can do?
Why don't you think the SS is suitable?

The bottom line is that if his education is incompatible with the efficient education of other children, they can move him.

It's quite unusual to get a statement for a child with no SEN - they are, after all, issued as a Statement of Special Educational Need. Are you sure that he's simply copying his brother - for what purpose?

What about a (managed) move to a different mainstream? With the statement tightened up to specify (for example) all staff trained in 1-2-3-magic. Given this particular one has now totally failed two of your children, I'd be wary of making any decision which relies on trusting that they have properly implemented the current statement.

And you might be right, if he's a 'copier', watching a wider variety of challenging behaviour could be risky. That said, special schools are much better at behaviour strategies than regular ones (just as most nurseries are, it's often not rocket science but many mainstreams get blinded by the demands of SATS and the large classes of 30+)

I also suspect lougle has a point. If your big one has severe issues, you'll be so used to the uber-parenting techniques that you might be very successfully preventing /managing symptoms of milder ADHD etc without even noticing.

Lougle, they can't insist on special though. Not according to this

That said, at 7, despite ds1's academic levels etc, his classroom behaviour was such that if special had been offerred to us, I'd have spent hours kissing panel's feet in gratitude. And ds1 would probably have been (successfully) placed back in mainstream after a couple of years decent input. As opposed to the 15y which the stress of keeping him in the wrong environment has put on me already .

Our local maintained SS is fantastic though. I'm aware they vary as much as mainstreams do.

Actually, re-reading, would suggest ringing SOS SEN. Am wondering could this be a Machiavellian move to make sure CAF doesn't recommend BESD residential for the big brother?

Yes they can, according to that (which you linked to), Mareeeya

It says:

"...however, if a local authority claims that mainstream education would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for other children, it must show that there are no reasonable steps that it could take in mainstream schools in its area to prevent that incompatibility (having regard to the statutory guidance on this issue). The local authority is not required to show that there are no reasonable steps that could be taken in relation to mainstream schools out of its area;"

So all the LA has to do, is be able to show that they cannot remedy the issues in this particular school sufficiently, that they would not arise in another mainstream school.

If the child in question (and I'm not talking specifically about the OP's child, but more generally) is unable to be managed with full time 1:1 support in a mainstream school, and there are no established SEN that the behaviour arises from, so therefore no sensory issues, etc., which can be overcome, then the LA could quite easily argue that no school in its area would be able to overcome the difficulties sufficiently to remove the incompatibility.

Yep, but the bar was set far higher than ive ever heard of in the 'reasonable adaptations' discussed as examples. They included 1-1 teacher (not LSA), an individual curriculum (not differentiated) and a separate room for teaching (whether the school already had one handy or not).

The LA mainly won on providing a 'suitable peer group', because they'd have needed to somehow find and ship other suitable dc in, to become the peer group.

This was a London school, I think, so the logistics of having lots of schools close together confused the issue. Parent's main argument seemed to have been that 'yes, our childs needs are extreme, but other parts of the capital can manage this ok, so can you, it's only a few miles away'

Which the first tribunal agreed with, but since common sense isn't law, the final one didn't.

I'm still struggling to imagine how a child has got a Statement if they themselves don't have any SEN, and why they would copy their older brother's behaviour only at school.

Hi thanks for the replies

Lougle, you read correctly.

The class which he is currently in has 4 SEN kids. Would love the school staff to be trained up in the 1,2,3 magic as at the moment they're swapping and changing strategies like no-ones business and cant seem to understand the impact they're having the pupils.

School have done lots, but basically my issue is they have given in to him or used bribery instead of rewards and now he's learned over the 2 years how to get out of doing work. Its awful and I'm going put my head on the block here... They have no disclipine over him and school have admitted that themselves. And now they want to place him in SS??

One example is a few weeks ago he was working in the corridor, TA rubbed out a sum , so he threw his numbers and ripped up his work. They had to ring me to go in and get him to pick the mess up. Took him 5 minutes with me there.

Which professionals carried out the statutory assessment of your ds2? When is your annual review?

MareeeyaDoloures thanks for the link. Worried that if ds2 ends up forced into SS placement, copied behaviour will just get worse due to influences. SS place helped with ds1 but his circumstances were totally different with diagnosed ADHD & ODD from an early age and issues with behaviour in every aspect. Have app with paeds re ds2 soon, to check for ADHD etc, but honestly its only school who have any problem mantaining his behaviour?!

Star EP carried it out and thats it as far as I'm aware. As in last post Paeds appointment is being made but hats via CAF. Review was fortnight ago which is when SS was first mentioned.

hats thats

So what is your assessment of him at home? Would you say that he is a totally 'normal' child for his age? You say you use 1,2,3 magic - do you have to continually use that method to get compliance, or is it once in a blue moon, once per day, once per hour...?

Does he attend after school activities and behave well there?

What prompted the Statutory Assessment - how long has he been statemented?

Once in a blue moon. Out of the 3 ds he's probably the best behaved at home. younger 2 ds have been brought up with the 1,2,3 magic since an early age as was taught it through ds1 ss. The SA was done purely through school due to his lack of compliance there. Then again, at home he's not expected to sit and work as he is at school?!

Do you know who your case officer is for your ds2?

What kind of SS has been raised? Did the LA attend the Annual Review and if so what did they say?

What does he say about his school behaviour? Has he told you why he does what he does?

Honestly? Mainstream are proposing SS from age 7-16y for a dc's BESD which aren't that bad when being managed effectively? And they can't manage him even with a statement? Either he really does have major problems, and you're managing so well at home that you have the luxury of being in denial, or else the school is totally rubbish. The only other explanations I can think of are that the SS suggestion may just be game-playing (by the school, trying to squeeze more funds out of the LA) or by the LA (as insurance against CAF suggesting residential for your DS1).

Write down a long list of what you do at home to create the kind of environment and support making his behaviour is easy to manage. Then write what school are doing which helps, and what they are doing which hinders. Then contrast with the current statement, rewriting as necessary. And show it to your LA case officer. Sounds like one case where you and the LA officer might very well be on the same side.

It sounds like you think school has not been firm enough with your ds especially as you seem to say he is well behaved at home. If this is the case then why not move him to another mainstream school and ask them to take a firmer approach. I think you may well be obliged to do this because even if you block the move to ss, they will probably start excluding him and then will gather evidence to either exclude permanently or for a managed move. What does your s say about his behaviour at school?

BESD can be SEN under SEN COP and clearly are in this case if the child has a statement.

Is your EP managing this situation? If not, why not?

I don't follow the talk of the SEN Panel. Is it just school that is saying they want him in a special school? They clearly are not coping.

What do you think might help? Does he have a TA? Is s/he trained? There are lots or things school should try before giving up on a child but you need a very clear behaviour management plan in place, managed by the EP or behaviour support.

This has been going on a long time and th behaviours must be significant to have got a statement. Your DS1 isn't even at the same school for him to copy in the day. You need to be very honest with yourself too about the extent of your sons needs. Do you thinkthey require further in investigations.

inappropriately I understand that BESD is SEN under the SEN CoP, I am just struggling to understand a situation where a child can display no difficulties at home and severe difficulties at school.

We all know that often children cope at school and dissolve at home, but we also know that 'coping' at school often doesn't mean 'absolutely fine and dandy'.

fizzbump is giving the impression that there are absolutely no concerns at home, which is why I am struggling to understand how the needs can be so severe at school that this situation is arising, and why the child has a statement for BESD rather than having had a managed move (i.e near-expulsion) to another MS school.

Most children who are just 'misbehaving' at school would be moved, then excluded and tutored or sent to a PRU.

There must be more to this than at first glance.

There are problems at home. But OP feels it's not ds2 causing them.

OP's Ds1 has ADHD and ODD severely, and as a result he has been at special school for most of his education. He kicks off at home, ds2 witnesses this, but is fairly passive at home (albeit with fairly advanced 'prevention' strategies). He later replays abnormal behaviours at school. They now want him in SS, and have tried inconsistent strategies, illegal exclusions, and now getting a BESD statement which hasn't helped.

One case where a sensible CAMHS and a CAF could really help?