Some advice re DSD - this may be a little long

[DamnBamboo]

Hello,

I am a reasonably regular poster and have never posted here before although I really need some advice/opinions on DSD.

DSD is 14.5 and lives with her mother. She sees us every other weekend and half of all holidays so there is regular contact.

I have known her since she was three and we have a good, friendly relationship.

She has always been a bit reclusive and quiet, nothing too unusual there I suppose. Her dad (my DH) is also an introvert and doesn't like socialising much either. I had always assumed she was like him.

As she has been getting older, she has becoming even more reclusive and quiet than ever before. Not making eye contact, barely engaging in conversation, certainly not starting conversation and often just giving one word answers when spoken to without making eye contact.

Others have commented on it and a couple of relatives, who she has known her whole life but doesn't see often, have also mentioned it and one particular family member had commented on how rude she'd become; to be fair, I can see their point in this particular instance.

She has two friends only, who she really sees outside of school and spends most of her weekends, both with her mother and with us, reading alone and avoiding engaging with any of us where possible. Her mother has a very active social life to my knowledge most of her weekends spend with her mother, are spent alone at home reading, on the web etc.

When with us, we have to ask her repeatedly to join us in family activities which she will eventually do so reluctantly and given the chance she will slip off at every opportunity to spend time alone in her room.

The reason I am posting in this instance is because of a particular incident yesterday which has struck me quite profoundly and filled me with concern.

We had been out to panto and had ended up in McDonalds for something to eat.
As we were walking to the doors to go in, i had asked her what she wanted to which she shrugged and said she didn't know and wasn't sure what they offered. She obviously doesn't eat there a lot, neither do we, fair enough.

I had ordered for my boys, my husband, and myself and then I turned to her and asked her what she wanted and she looked utterly bewildered.

I asked her if she had decided and she became visibly distressed and flustered and started to say she didn't understand. I asked her what she didn't understand and she said, this (pointing to the menu) and so I said I don't know what you mean, surely you can just read it and see what they have and go from there, to which she said, she doesn't understand what the particular items are. This in itself was confusing enough, because she can read properly I (is exceptionally bright academically) so I then said, well ask, just ask the guy behind the counter if you don't know. At this point she started cowering away, burst into tears, put her hands up to her face and refused to speak to me or her dad or tell the guy what she wanted.

We were utterly shocked at this point, she was clearly unable to make a decision and didn't want to have to engage with the young man behind the counter so I gently said to her, if you want to know what something is, just ask and he'll tell you. Still crying she turned her back on us, put her hands up to her face and wept, literally wept real tears due to the distress she was in because she couldn't cope with having to make a decision/order some food/speak with the guy - all of the above I suppose.

Upshot is I managed to order her something that she would eat and we all sat down together, but I am totally shocked at the response she gave to this.

This wasn't sullen teenage behaviour, this was genuine confusion and distress and I think perhaps in addition to other behaviour changes, she needs to speak with somebody or perhaps be assessed.

Her mother shows very little interest in her (this is another story) and i have repeatedly commented to my DH over the years that she spends too much time alone and that we should encourage her to interact more and engage with us a little more, but now I'm starting to think there is more to it than this.

Can anybody advise on this, if you think this is seems odd or if this is typical teenage behaviour, if we should ask somebody (SENCO) in her school to have somebody speak with her to see if anybody can advise of shed some light.

I am a little worried, she doesn't seem happy and her behaviour generally is becoming increasingly concerning.

Thanks for reading.

rarely sees outside of school

Could be anything, from this info, but definitely doesn't sound ok . Elective mutism, anorexia, asperger's, pragmatic language disorder, depression, early prodrome of psychosis, or even 'just' an exceptionally vulnerable and sensitive, shy child who never coped with her family life changing and now isn't coping with adolescence.

Does your dh have parental responsibility and/or a good enough relationship with ex to work out a joint strategy? Could you all work with SENCO to find out if dsd is the same at school? Would approaching your local version of CAMHS be useful?

Wow, I hadn't even considered all of those. I know so little about this. I don't think she's anorexic, she eats reasonably well (amount and variety) and there are no other signs of this.

What is pragmatic language disorder, prodrome of psychosis.

DH relationships with ex is fine, very limited, reserved to discussing DSD only but it is friendly enough and there have never been any real problems. I don't think her mum will react well to this for a number of reasons and yes, DH does have parental responsibility so if they can't work out what to do, he'll have to lead on this and organise and that's where we'll need help.

Thanks for you advice.

Pragmatic language disorder is difficulty with the all non-words bits of communication, basically everything communicated in a Pingu episode . Prodrome of any illness is just the run-up to it, when you're 'not well' but the disease hasn't quite struck enough to be properly recognisable (and of course, you might fight it off so it never does)

Will let some wiser posters look now and pop back when I can.

I agree you are right to be concerned. Like Maria, I think there is a range of possibilities - depression, anxiety, social anxiety, aspergers, bullying etc to consider. It's definitely worth talking to the class teacher or the senco, but be aware that if a child is quite passive - well behaved and doing well academically, then they can be overlooked a bit. So also worth doing your own reading round as well. Off the top of my head, there are a few things that may have bothered her in the McDs scenarios - she might have found the bright lights and noise overwhelming, or she may find it v difficult to initiate a conversation (either for aspergers type reasons or extreme social anxiety).

The young minds website has some information about anxiety etc .
I agree that you're right to be concerned - anxiety can be insidious.

It's possible that she is feeling unhappy based on the info you have given. I really hope that family members aren't expressing their opinion that she is 'rude' within her earshot.

I think zzzzz makes a good point. It could have been triggered by teenage hormones combined with other factors.
is she happy at school? Could she have friendship worries?

I echo what zzz says. It seems to me, to be unbearably insensitive of you to tell her "Surely you can read it" and "Just ask the guy"...I would have suggested things..."What about some fries and a cheeseburger?" or "Do you like chicken?"

Your DSDs behaviour is indicative of all kinds of things....but mainly it struck me because the way your DSD acted in the restaurant is very like the way my own DD might act in an unfamiliar setting....she has no SN though was assessed...she's very bright, very, very shy and sensitive to her surroundings.

It sounds like your DSD isn't very comfortable around you and the extended family. Also, two friends only is not unusual at all.

It would definitely be beyond awful for any teenage girl to have to ask what the food is, especially if the person at the till is a boy! The normally functioning teen feels excruciatingly self-conscious almost all the time, and particularly when in public around males! And hiding in the room, reading and certainly not wanting to take part in "family time" is also v v normal teen behaviour IMHO. She does sound a little extreme though in terms of anxiety.

Yes sickof I well remember sitting on a 7 mile bus ride into town and looking out of the window the WHOLE way because there were some "cool boys" on the bus and I did not want to catch their eye. I had a crick in my neck something shocking!

What COULD the DSD have asked the guy behind the counter? "Can you select me a meal please?" "What do you recommend?" "What is a Zinger Burger?" Doubtful!

One more point: apparently one of the key horrors for any teen is to be embarrassed or look foolish in front of peers. I remember this myself. She would be aware that not to be au fait with a McDonalds menu would be deemed uncool, and show her up in front of the boy on the till. Definitely don't expect her to expose ignorance to older boys. This excessive embarrassment is part of the teen "rite is passage" as it enables them to separate from parents and work out how to fit in with peers.

My very hf ASD teen stepdaughter can get v v embarrassed and annoyed if you try and push her into situations that might cause her to be embarrassed in front of others. It is actually visibly painful for her.

God yes mrs mushroom - I can still feel the teenage pain of getting something wrong and looking uncool in front of the cool kids!

Oh yes and even the phrase "come downstairs and join in family time" still to this day strikes me as fairly horrific! And I'm old!

SickOf I suspect I'm HF myself and amongst a lot of troubles with socialising and communication I STILL hate bleddy family time! I;m with the inlaws for Christmas and tonight was hell on wheels as I wanted to leg it away from all the banter of extended family and sit with the dogs, a coffee and my sewing!

Thanks for your responses. Some people have clearly either not read it or have just imagined scenarios based on what limited information there is.

I haven't posted what was said ad verbatim and I haven't posted it scene by scene either. I didn't allow her to be reduced to tears zzzz and I didn't actually say to her 'surely you can read it... etc'. Also, I didn't try to force her to speak with the boy behind the till either after she had been crying what i had said was that if she told me that liked the sound of something, we could find out from him what it was.

I also made several suggestions to her about what to eat and suggested that she find a seat with her brothers and dad whilst I got something for her if she couldn't decide, but she wouldn't have it and wouldn't leave. She remained rooted to the spot. So thanks MrsMushroom for your wild and utterly incorrect assumptions based on this one incident (first of its kind) is saying she isn't comfortable around us, which actually makes me laugh because it's so far from the truth.

She hasn't spent years sitting in her room at all not sure what gave you that idea. This is recent, and a change in her behaviour, which is why I'm posting. Clearly a very young child would not be allowed or encouraged to remain alone in their room and we've always done her best to get her to socialise.

We have tried to organise her activities for the weekends she is with us, sat down with her, got her to look through various webites and clubs and we regularly eat together, play family games together, make sure she is with us when we got on holidays, day trips etc.....

We have no other concerns really except social isolation and what now seems to be social ineptness and she does seem to get anxious. As I've said, she has never been good in groups, but seems to be getting a lot worse at joining in and many other relatives (who all love and care for her) have commented.
As far as modelling behaviour I expect, I have no firm expectations from her at all, I'm just concerned that she is withdrawing more and it worries me because I don't want her to be unhappy.

Christ, I should have posted this in AIBU, would have had possibly more helpful responses and less based on total supposition. If I didn't care why on earth would I be posting?

I feel your pain Mrsmush! Actually staying with other people is excruciating, and I am a reasonably sociable person, there should be a 3 hour maximum put on any family interaction in my book!

What COULD the DSD have asked the guy behind the counter? "Can you select me a meal please?" "What do you recommend?" "What is a Zinger Burger?" Doubtful!

Hang on a second! What's with the attitude? Why, if someone doesn't know what something like a zinger burger is, would it not be reasonable for them to ask somebody who works there what it is? I don't get why this is a big deal?

She has never, ever behaved this way before and has in the past quite happily gone on short errands down to the shop and engaged with people in a service setting, so why would this be unusual and difficult to do. It's the sudden change in behaviour that seems a little strange and such anxiety in a restaurant about ordering something from a menu seemed a little extreme and out of character.

You sound judgemental and not that nice MrsMushroom to be honest.

Thank you sickof you have also been very helpful.

I'm just feeling for the girl Bamboo and if you don't include details about what you did/said to support her...but plenty of other details...how is one meant to guess that you did suggest things for her to eat?

ok let's take a step back.

The menu choice thing is a real pressure cooker. I still find it hard as an adult, to make a menu choice in a fast food place. subway, for example, is a nightmare -what bread; 6" or footlong; main filling; toasted, heated or neither; supplementary fillings; condiments; drink. All the time with people crushing behind you, let alone the noise, the lights, etc.

However, you've seen that now, so you can do a little experiment. next week, go to McDonald's again, but this time stand outside and look at the menu board together, choose the meal, then see if she can cope with ordering. If she manages, great, if not, you know what she wants and you know that the issue isn't just making choices under pressure.

how would you say her language is? Is it how you'd expect a girl of her age to speak, or does she sound quite formal? can she give/take jokes? Is she quite literal in her understanding, or does she cope well with metaphors, etc?

Yes, Mrs I felt for her too. Was really upset for her and tried to calm her down and get on with it. If I included the whole thing, verbatim, it would be two pages long, having said that, it didn't stop you guessing about other things did it.

Anyway, there was surprisingly a lot of dialogue over the McDonald's menu and 'not understanding' it - again a surprise in itself since she would usually not say much about it and the phrase 'not understanding' confused me.

I ordered for her and gave her a big hug but felt really uneasy about the whole thing and was wondering if this is perhaps typical teenager behaviour (bearing in mind I was one once but it was a while ago) or if in addition to the general withdrawal and other people noticing a change in her behaviour, what others had to say about it and if we should investigate it further. The fact that it doesn't seem to have affected her too badly thus far, doesn't mean it isn't something we should keep an eye on.

Funny thing is, we eat out not infrequently (pizza express, harvester ) and she has no real trouble there. We only ended up there because my DS3 has a hacking cough and we didn't want to sit down in a restaurant and order and she never, ever has trouble choosing. Again, it was a bizarre turn of events that really made no sense.

Lougle the McDonalds had three other families in it and is a brand new, huge one hear where we went to panto. Her language is excellent, she is in her GCSE year and could not be doing better at school. She is very formally spoken, really has never got jokes, can be very literal and usually is to the point where when my boys (aged 7,5,3) are silly with her, she doesn't really get it and often hurts their feelings by making what seems (to me anyway) like quite cutting remarks.

I love her like she was my own, always have done and have never treated her any differently and and am actually quite upset by this whole thing at the moment.

The spending time alone at her mothers house is simply because her mother actively pursues her own social life and DSD is not that fussed about her own and so doesn't do much by choice. Again, this is more recently since when she was younger, she will have spent more time with adults and so less time alone, even if through necessity and because it is the done thing, rather than through choice.

I am not insulted by your response, I didn't use quotations so my description of it was as I was thinking not what was said. I was honestly thinking to myself in response to her saying to me 'I don't understand any of it', but surely you can read it. And she could read it, she did read it.

It was a bizarre turn of events and out of character, which I why I posted.
My concerns are for her happiness and that she is comfortable at all times. She is quite immature, which my husband also notices and very different to my generation when we were 15, but perhaps that is how it is nowadays.

I'm not so concerned about her terse response to questions of frank and sometimes unkind remarks to my boys, but she is now being judged (for lack of better word) on it although not to her face because she is older now and people are noticing her little quirks.

I can't think what is causing her problems, if indeed they are problems I was just posting to see if anybody had any advice.