my sons behaviour..i REALLY need help

[thriftychic]

my son is 13 , he is a big , strong , tall spotty teenager . i love him so much but his behaviour is hideous.
he was diagnosed AS last week.
if he doesnt want to do something he kicks off or if he cant have / do what he wants he kicks off. BIG TIME.

he refused school on friday because hed lost his bike lock and couldnt ride to school. didnt want to walk there.

yesterday , dh bought him ice cream from the shop and then realised he should have also bought some butter. as he had started cooking lunch he asked ds2 to run round and get some (its 5 minutes ) ds2 didnt want to go because he was watching tv . dh is sick of his laziness and unhelpfulness and got annoyed and said that if he didnt go he wasnt getting the ice cream later. he still wouldnt go . dh shouted , ds2 kicked off .

he smashes things up , he shouts in your face , he gets aggressive . he spits .he wrecks his brothers stuff etc in fact i have hardly any posessions left !
He was saying that if he didnt give him his ice cream he would break x y z , which he then did break.
dh told him if he broke anything else he wouldnt have use of the xbox , ds2 says take my xbox away and i wont go to school
and thats how it goes , ds2 outsmarts us all the time. no matter what we do he wants what he wants . we had to keep guard the bloody freezer until 10pm because he kept trying to get his icecream.
now i know dh handled this badly , but we just dont know what to do . i now have a lock on my wardrobe as ds2 threatened to trash all my clothes .

nothing seems to work and i actually feel a bit scared of ds2 and he seemsto stop at nothing.

please help me if you can x

Most behaviour workshops to do with ASD will focus on low arousal - you may need to look at sensory issues that might set him off or help calm him down as well.

Wassup is good at this, he is just copying your behaviour, you tell him if you dont do this, then i will do this. He does the same to you! He is a smart boy

You could also give him some alternatives, what you want him to do when he is angry, instead of smashing things we do x, y z instead.

yes , i see that , he is copying isnt he ! i think i have much to learn !

going to have to get some kip now but i will check back tomorrow and re read. thanks ever so much

Im going to do the same and good luck

Also have lots of fun time together either 1 on 1 or as a family - maybe all go on a bike ride once a week or bowling or to the cinema - or you/his dad have a special hour together. Help build up that relationship again. Read up on AS look on amazon maybe at some of Tony attwoods stuff?

Good luck, let us know what happens x

thrifty, what books have you got/read. Attwood is a great place to start getting your head around it, but there are others that are more help on a practical day to day level. If you tell us what you've already read, I'll see if I can recommend some others that I've found useful.

I have to agree with others on the thread. Ds1 has AS and for him it's a case of consistency with everything. We do have consequences for bad behaviour, but they are always the same, he knows what they are and there is always a warning before they are implemented. In his case, he loses ten minutes of his computer time for each thing and if that hasn't worked after three consequences (usually in fairly quick succession if the first one fails) then he loses the whole of his computer time either for that day - or if he's already had it, for the next day.

The other important things it to try and get a handle on what is AS related, what is just bad/teenage behaviour and also what is worth the battle. Eg ds regularly says things that others might perceive as rude or cheeky. Years ago these would have been a red rag to a bull to me and I would have come down hard on him for them, but now I realise he really doesn't know he's doing it, so rather than having a huge bust up, I tend to say something like 'ds1 that tone of voice or choice of words is usually considered very rude' then he'll say 'is it? I didn't mean to be rude' and I'll respond by perhaps saying something like, 'well maybe we need to think of another way of saying it for future reference then ... how about .....'.

Don't get me wrong, I still get cross and I still find myself saying 'ds don't be so rude' sometimes, but most of the time I can now backpedal enough to use it as a teaching exercise, rather than a judgement/criticism, iyswim.

With the ice-cream thing, I would have to agree that he was expecting ice-cream, having already been told he was going to get it. His AS related black and white thinking would have meant that, in his mind, there were no caveats to him getting the ice-cream, therefore having it taken away was totally unjust - no matter how he behaved. Going to the shop for butter was a completely separate issue, yes he was rude and beligerent for not going, but in this case I would probably have added a motivator, rather than a consequence to encourage him to go OR warned him that if he was deliberately rude and refused to go there would be a consequence (so one of his known consequences, in our case 10 minutes off computer time) and therefore given him the opportunity to make a good choice over a bad one in terms of what he did next.

We often talk about good choices and bad choices, as this takes it away from the whole good boy/bad boy thing and focusses on the action, rather than the child. So ds isn't a bad kid, he just made a bad choice and we need to work on how he can learn to make a better choice next time.

As Wasuup said, another thing that's made a huge difference to us is finding a common interest and spending some time together doing that - although admittedly it has taken quite a bit of effort on the part of dh and I. Dh now attends Pokemon League with him every other Saturday and I have found a few computer games that we both enjoy and we either challenge each or help each other with them accordingly. It haa made a world of difference to him to feel that dh and I understand and connect with him on some level, whereas before he always felt on the outside of things with no-one 'getting' him, iyswim. It also gives us something to chat about and I make a point of asking him stuff from that standpoint that I need his help, because he is the expert and I am only learning.

It's a really steep learning curve. Ds1 is 10 now and was only diagnosed at 8, so we are still very much learning ourselves, but it does get better as you go along and learn more strategies.

thankyou mossemama , i have ordered the tony attwood book from my local library , should be here in a day or 2 .

i had school ringing yesterday. teacher says ds2 is refusing to participate in his construction lesson.
i spoke to ds2 , he says he doesnt like it because he doesnt like digging in the mud and most of all he doesnt like the other students as they are all the naughty and low ability ones and he doesnt want to be with them dimwits (his words)
i told him it wasnt optional , school lessons have to be done, he said it is , it was one of my options (took options last year). explained about that but i told him that i would see if i can get him transferred but until then he must participate. i said he would be able to use xbox if he did but not if he didnt . made no difference.
hes shouted what a bitch i am etc etc and i know that when he gets home and cant use xbox i am going to be in hell. he will make sure of it.

he has his own agenda and NOTHING OR NO ONE can make him change it.

feel like my heads gonna blow off !
also when he says rude things he knows hes being rude , he tells dh that hes a fat waster (when hes mad) because he knows that will get to him.

My Ds is nearly 12 and we don't have the raging hormones yet - thankfully.
We still have the extreme anger at sudden changes to a routine, him not being able to do things he was expecting to do (even if they were in his own head), to not being able to do anything perfectly the first time...... The list goes on.
What you have to do is identify the triggers- the things that for your DS cause the most distress and to find a way around them all.
I have found that shouting at DS makes him shout back until it escalates into something that upsets us both. I am getting better at restraining the urge to shout and to speak calmly while telling DS what it is that I am uspet about clearly and in very plain understandable language.
Do you find that your DS does not understand idioms, and turns of phrase? - ( or in my DS 's case gets some of them and deliberately misunderstands).
I have taking to saying things much like moosemama
"That is a very angry rude tone of voice and if you were to use that outside the house the person you were talking to would take offence and you would get into trouble"
It does draw the response of the sugar coated Disney response instead sometimes - but actually this is preferable.
I also say things like " if you say x to me, this is what I think you mean" and he will then be able to say "well I didn't mean it to sound like that", and we can find an alternative to use next time.
It is little steps.
It is going to take you a while to read about AS and rethink how you respond to calm things down.
We also send DS to sit quietly in his room until he can calm down and talk to us rationally.

Re the digging in the mud, does your DS have sensory problems with the feel of the dirt on his hands - did he have trouble with paint on his hands, and, water, glue, dirt when he was younger?
Would wearing gardening gloves help, given that he has to do it anyway, until you can alter this option?

Thirifty, my ds although only 8 years old, would not go near mud or let mud touch him in a million years. He would freak out, its a sensory thing.

Add to that if ds had to be asked to dig in mud, something that cause him great distress, you add 'disruptive' kids, this would be his worst nightmare, he cannot tolerate noise (sensory), he cannot tolerate 'unpredictable' (ASD thing)and other children with sn's can be very impulsive or unpredictable, due to their own difficulties.

You might find this helpful www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/sensory-processing-disorder-checklist.html its about sensory processing, something which children with AS often have.

It seems you might be punishing your ds for the things he finds difficult and to him this would seem very unfair.

Did he know that construction would involve digging in mud, when he chose it?

My own ds asked to be removed from 'lunch club' its a club run by school for children with sn who struggle at lunch time. The other children in the group, were 'disruptive', food throwing, lots of noise, some were very touchy etc, etc (obviously not their fault) but ds has a food phobia, cant stand the thought of food touching him, cant stand being touched, cant stand noise.

So i didnt see him not attending lunch club as an unreasonable request from him. Schools do tend to think, lets just throw all the SN kids together, as they cannot cope with 'normal' kids and they will get along. In fact, their difficulties are often the opposite to each other ie some like to make noise, some cant stand noise, both sensory things, but total opposite.

Would also add ds can be quite rude to his brother, he will call him 'fat', to him he is perfectly justified in doing this, in his mind its very much a 'he upset me, i will upset him' kind of thing.

He doesnt get that it is perfectly reasonable of his brother to say 'no' to his requests, like 'come and bounce on the trampoline with me', older ds 'not now, im busy' ds 'you are fat and i hate you'

To him older ds has 'upset' him, so he wants to 'upset' him back. He see things very black and white, he cannot see that my older ds is being perfectly reasonable and logical and is not deliberately trying to upset him. He sees upset = upset.

Have you read the 'how to talk so kids will listen book' at all? I think quite a few people here have found it useful for giving them strategies for handling situations without them becoming instantly confrontational.

I'm not sure what the school wanted you to do about the refusal to participate. I have always been told by the professionals involved with my ds that school is school and home is home and not to punish ds at home for anything that happens at school. The school still inform me of what's going on, but I am not expected to 'deal with it'.

Your ds needs to feel that you are on his side or it just becomes a 'them and us' situation across the board and you end up with resistance to anything and everything. I often tell ds that I will fight his corner every time, as long as he is not being unreasonable or badly behaved and accepts that I can't always fix everything and that sometimes we all just have to get on with things and abide by the rules, sadly no-one has a perfect life where they only have to do things they like (I often use the example of how I hate cleaning the toilet, but it has to be done, so I just get on and do it). We just had a situation recently where school wanted to move him down a group and he was devastated. We went into battle for him, but in the long run decided he was better off not being in the class with the original teacher and had to accept that moving him was the only sensible option. He was furious with us and all I could do was explain that I am only human and can't always make everything better for him, but I will always try my hardest to make sure that what does happen is in his best interests. We are now into the second week of him being in the new group and while he's still not happy, he is now accepting the situation.

We have had times when ds has refused to participate in class activities (mostly in PE and handwriting) and to be honest the best result came via last year's teacher, who with PE, basically just ignored him and let him be bored standing there on his own for an hour. Eventually he decided to start joining in, just with small parts at first, but eventually choosing to become properly involved. With handwriting it took a bit more 'handling' because he loathes and will do anything to avoid it at the best of times and to cap it all he was missing guided reading which he loves. They ended up cutting a deal where he did ten minutes handwriting and then went back to the lesson he liked, even though the rest of the group had a 30 minute handwriting session. The school should be considering what motivators they can use and also, if they are unwilling to just let him not particpate and be bored, what sanctions they are going to put on his behaviour. He should then be fully informed, in advance of what will happen if he doesn't participate and be given appropriate reminders and warnings (not threats).

As for the language etc, if he knows he's being rude and is deliberately throwing insults at people then he needs a consequence every time, without fail. There is no way I would stand for any of my dcs calling me a bitch, they would have instant consequences and if they didn't like it they would be told to stay in their own room until they decided to be civil and polite. If they then decided to trash stuff, at least it would be their own belongings and confined to a place that they have to be, rather than somewhere that affects everyone else. I think this bit has more to do with being a teenager than the AS to be honest and my eldest is only 10, so I suppose I have all this to come.

You said that he specifically chooses language he knows you and your dh will react to. Ds1 also does things deliberately to incite a reaction and we find the best thing to do is not react, keep our cool, warn him in a simple, short sentence "if you say that again x will happen' then, if he persists, implement the consequence without any reaction at all. It works best if we all just carry on as if nothing at all is happening while ds does all his ranting, screaming, wailing etc. It takes a bit of practise, but eventually you will be able to just carry on without batting an eyelid while he carries on and this effectively takes the wind out of his sails.

I think it sounds like you are going to have to get really tough, be 100% consistent and ride the backlash to getting tougher with his behaviour, as it's pretty much inevitable that he's going to react badly initially. It will also be necessary to balance it with finding some common interests and spending time doing something you both enjoy on a regular basis, hopefully things will start to improve as he begins to see and accept that you are on his side.

Make sure you have had a proper sit down discussion with him about how the rules are going to change, exactly what the new rules are and that there will be zero tolerance from now on. Explain the consequences for his behaviour and when the consequences will be employed (eg ask, tell, warn, consequence or ask, warn consequence) and what the escalation of consequences will be if the initial (eg 10 minutes of x box time) doesn't work. Write it down together and make sure he knows where the list is kept - a poster/chart is useful, but not if you think he will just rip it down the first time he gets angry. Always follow through on any promise, as even if you don't actually perceive things as being promises (eg the icecream thing) he will, so if you say he can have icecream, he gets icecream no matter what - if he breaks the rules implement one of the agreed consequences rather than suddenly changing the agenda by eg telling him he's now not going to have icecream. This should make him feel more secure, as currently the rules/parameters keep changing and for children with AS that makes them feel really unsafe. He needs to know what the core parameters/rules are for his life and that those don't change - regardless of what else is going on. He needs to know that if x happens the result will be y - every single time.

I'm sorry I can't come up with an easy answer, but essentially there isn't one. It's just a case of trying to keep calm, not over-react and make sure you are the one in control.

It is horrible feeling like you have to live your life to your child's agenda, but you can gradually change the balance of power back to you by making him feel more secure and therefore have less of a need to control absolutely everything.

Don't get me wrong, things will still have to orbit your ds's needs to a large extent, as compromise isn't something that comes easily to most people with AS and anxiety, uncertainty and insecurity are often at the root of much of the lashing out and perceived bad behaviour. BUT whilst you will always have to work around your ds's needs it won't be in the same way, more with you calling the shots - whilst considering his needs, rather than him dictating the terms.

when he gets angry its massive, there is no way he will go to his room , i have no control.
the mud thing , he has overalls and boots to wear but will not take them and wear them as he doesnt want to do it full stop.

he doesnt seem to have much sensory problems , but tbh now weve had an AS diagnosis i might spot that he has . i do remember him going crazy once when i bought a pumpkin and he wouldnt touch the inside to carve it for halloween. he has never drank fizzy pop until last month and wont eat fruit. He was supposed to be earning pocket money , one job was putting the bin out but he preferred to lose his money rather than do it because the alleyway was dirty . but , on the other hand i have seen him put overalls on and go to work with his dad and get filthy without a care.

i have just spoken to the teacher again , yesterday ds2 was told he could stay inside with another lad who had also failed to bring the overalls but he didnt , he went outside and said some really nasty comments to the others (comments he would know and intend to be nasty) he then went mad that mud had got on his trousers claiming the kids had done that purposely (i dont know if they had)
he just will never talk to me about anything either , so its really hard to understand. if i try to talk to hjim when hes calm he just ends up angry again.

i know there may be lots of reasons behind these behaviours and i am really trying to see it but i am having a hard time believing that hes not just being stubborn and controlling .

dh seems to think i am in denial over the whole AS thing , perhaps hes right.

claw ,yes ! you upset me i will upset you back. thats exactly his thinking ALOT
thanks for your post moose , sounds like you have it sussed with your ds . i ignored the insults this morning , i could see how it was going , the next thing would have been it escalating and him refusing school.
i struggle as to what i can do as a consequence , if i say hes to go to bed earlier , he just sits on the stairs and refuses to go. hes a big lad i cannot physically do anything .

I didn't realise ds1 had sensory problems until he got his dx and then we started to recognise them as we got used to seeing his behaviour and reactions from an AS perspective. Ds won't drink fizzy drinks either and he really hates certain food textures. He also has a real problem with strong smells and really worries about getting dirty hands. He actually likes digging holes and grubbing about looking for insects, but he has to know that he can get properly clean afterwards or he just won't do it.

I don't have it all sussed with my ds by any stretch of the imagination. I still struggle and get it wrong regularly. All I can do is offer you some suggestions based on what has worked for us, but each child is different, has different needs and reactions, different sensory issues and of course a different personality. As you said, your ds is a big strong teenager, whereas mine is only ten and tiny for his age. When he really kicks off, dh can still give him a big pressure hug to calm him down and if needs be pick him up and physically remove him from the situation. I do understand that these simply aren't options for you. What works for us may not be right for you, but at least if I tell you what we do, there may be something that you think might be worth trying.

My biggest piece of advice is the keeping calm and trying not to react thing - it's the strongest thing we've found for stopping things from escalating - as you said with the insults this morning. You have obviously identified a flash-point and triggers with regard to your own ds in the mornings before school and you are right to handle it however you feel is best. Some things just aren't worth the battle, especially if the behaviour is coming out of anxiety for example, being anxious about going to school, therefore being stroppy and rude with you.

My own ds is a nightmare after school, mealtimes are awful flashpoints as he has terrible table habits as he can't manage cutlery and can't sit on a chair properly, but spends the entire meal criticising his siblings manners and telling them what they should/shouldn't be doing - whilst talking with his mouth full. He will happily sneeze without covering his nose/mouth, but will have an instant meltdown if someone else (including 3 year old dd) does it in his presence. He also has the 'you upset me, so I'm going to upset you back' attitude with his brother (ds2, 8) and this is a constant source of fights. He's also another one who gets het up if we try to discuss issues when he's calm and your ds has had much longer to learn and perfect his own masking and coping strategies, which probably includes keeping it all locked up inside, so that when you press the wrong button the pressure valve blows. Ds is very similar and I can forsee us having similar issues when he's older - I'm dreading the teenage years to be honest.

Have you had a look on the NAS website? Are there any support groups in your area? We don't attend our local support group, but they have regular talks from professionals and even teenagers and adults who have AS, including ones on things like handling the teenage years - so it might be worth googling and seeing if there is anything in your area.

Please don't feel like you are alone in this, we are all struggling on and can only offer advice based on our own experiences, along with the odd and (hug).

Thrifty, i think most kids with AS tend to be very controlling, ds certain is. I think the trick is to let them have a certain amount of control, but you control the choices.

You cannot control your ds or anyone else for that matter, unless you are physically going to do so. But what you can control if your reaction to it, what your expectations are of him and the consequences.

Thrifty, dont give consequences you cant control, as you say he is a big lad and if he refuses to go to his room, you cant physically make him, so dont make that a consequence.

Make consequences things you can control and things you can follow through with, privelleges for example. If you say no x-box, you can physically remove the x-box and hide it. No pocket money or no bike or no friends coming round or whatever.

You can tell him what you expect from him ie i expect when you get angry, that you dont break things, i expect you to do x, y, z instead, things like walk away, punch a pillow, go for a ride on your bike etc, etc, so you are giving him choices and he can meet your expectation if he chooses to. Then whatever the consequence will be if he doesnt ie removal of x-box or whatever.

Then if he does choose to ignore you, there is no argument, no getting angry etc on your part, you just remove the x-box.

If he then esclates to violence towards you, you can remind him that this is a criminal offence and what the consequences are ie you can be arrested.

In the meantime, as others have said try to have some fun with him, join in with something that he likes to do, have some fun times too.

Try to motivate him to do the things he doesnt like to do, like chores. For example 'you take the bin out, while i get the ice cream ready' or whatever.

I sound like Mary Poppins, but trust me, im not . I myself have a son who refuses school and self harms, we all do the best we can.

Wise words Claw
I find that controlling my reaction is what makes the biggest change to situations.
thrifychic you need to think what will work best for you as a family when imposing consequences.
For instance my default is to loose computer and DS time, but we do sometimes say that we will have a think about it and find a punishment to fit the crime. DS is 11 so he can understand this although he hates it,
So fir instance there was an incident at school where he drew on someones jumper with a black whiteboard marker. School rang me. Thankfully it was easily washed out. DS got a detention at school, but we were explaining how much of a pain it is to have extra washing and ironing ( apart from the possible permanent damage he potentially could have caused), so we made him responsible for loading putting on and unloading the washing machine for a few days and got him to iron a set of school uniform.
He commented afterwards how much work was involved and I think he will think twice again about willfully dirtying others clothes.
The thing is with AS is that the children don't generalise and so you have to do this a lot for each situation in a different place until they understand. It can be frustrating but you need to do it.

The other thing that strikes me is that your DS is lashing out angrily. I went on an anger course with the NAS that made me think. They said to think of the child as a can of fizzy drink.
So wake up and start the day. Look OK on the outside, something little makes them upset or anxious - shake the can a little - still looks the same?
Repeat as the day goes on until when you pull the ring on the can you get an explosion.
This is often what anger is like for them, so sometimes they cope with a setback and other times the same thing can cause a huge meltdown.

What we all need to do is communicate sufficiently so that everyone knows when the pressure is building up to see if anything can be done earlier to diffuse it. Not easy I know but something to have in mind.

thankyou , you have all given me lots to think about and very helpful suggestions. i really appreciate that you have taken time out to post and try to help me
i have been feeling as though im on my own in the middle of the sea bobbbing about and shouting for help! no one in rl knows what im talking about. i will ask when we go back to camhs for the workshop about support groups. dh , is trying his best but tbh i really think he also has aspergers and when i think he can see i am trying to handle things diplomatically or calmly with ds2 he will bowl in and say something daft that is like a red rag to a bull and think hes helping.
i am going to try and come up with a plan for behaviour , have a think about consequences and rewards , try to make it consistent .
i think i will have to stick to my guns tonight with the xbox as i have said it now but i can see a very hard night ahead.

Thrifty, there is nothing wrong with saying to your ds, that you have had a think about consequences and you will NOT be taking his x-box away tonight.

I can remember in the heat of the moment, making consequences that i didnt think i should have, where things just escalated with my older boys. There is no shame, in saying i shouldnt have done that. Parents make mistakes too (not suggesting you did make a mistake, but if YOU feel you did, i think its ok to back down)

Maybe you could use this, as the pathway to a discussion with your ds ie i will not be taking your x-box away this time, but we need to discuss which behaviour will lead to which consequences. Then draw up a list of behaviours and consequences with your ds. This way he will have some input into behaviours and consequences and it wont just be something that is 'done to him', he has had input and agreed to them.

ok , bearing in mind my brain is addled , how does this sound ?

i make a list of rules , such as no name calling , no breaking things etc

i tell him everyday he sticks to the rules he gets a £1 and a chocolate bar

if he breaks the rules once he loses the chocolate and money , breaks the rules twice he misses his xbox .

the problem is , he can misbehave in the morning before school , so normally i'd say no xbox . he'd come home , cant go on xbox and then misbehave much worse
so then i have nowhere to go other than say you miss xbox tomorrow aswell. tomorrow comes , hes mad again because no xbox so he behaves worse again and round and round it goes...
i cant send him to his room , i cant send him to bed early . he doesnt go anywhere after school that i could use , theres only really the tv and how do i stop him watching tv when his brother is watching it , i cant really. so , im struggling to come up with anything other xbox.

the xbox is a major deal to him i should have said and the only thing he really cares about alot

he likes his bike but if i stop him going to school on the bike and say he has to walk he wont go to school

Its hard isn't it, that is why we have to be inventive,
I use computer time, DS, Wii and TV.
I also do things like insist DS comes to help me in the kitchen ( OK so not much real help often) but it keeps him out of the room with the TV or computer.

I think that perhaps to increase the sanctions you could split the money and the chocolate - that would give him one more chance.

Are the incentives enough?

Or how about turning it on its head and you have to earn time on the x-box, so for each rule you do follow all day you get the time the next?

ive tried earning the xbox before but didnt seem to work. i think because he has had a routine of going on it straight after school EVERY night and first thing saturday and sunday morning without having to earn it .

Hide the box and only give it over when the time is earned? Bit draconian though. We had the same thing with DS and the computer. I changed all the passwords so I have to log him on and put time restrictions on so he couldn't go on early in the morning or late at night.