Dr Ron Leaf - Free ABA Introduction in London

[StarlightMcKenzie]

www.autismpartnership.co.uk/uk_workshops.php

disclaimer: I have never bought services from Autism Partnership and do not work for them. This is purely for information for those that might be interested to find out more about ABA for free.

My 'personal' opinion is that this geezer is worth listening to having read some of his stuff.

Thanks Moondog. It feels right to me that we ought to revisit PECS before going down the AAC route. And if we're going to revisit that we ought to do it properly and go on the Pyramid course.

I have an appt with ACE in Oxford in 2 weeks so this thread has been very timely. Thanks again.

moondog we were told about signing by a B/A and PECS by a s/lt. After reading yours and schobe replies, I think we are going to wait for a couple of weeks. We have an appointment with a s/lt so will start PECS with her supervision. Wife is booked in a PECS course in November as well.

star what you say makes a lot of sense as always, joins messmonster in the groupie corner

schobe top marks for your amateur effort, they are very useful, i have them printed, laminated and ready to go.

messmonster I am so glad that this thread helped you. I was only speaking to my wife about how this thread started off and now we are discussing PECS. Her reply was this.'you do know you have turned into a women, don't you. This is what women do, start conversation with one thing and end up on a completely different topic'. I am ashamed to admit I had no argument there .

I tend to find it is BAs who go for signing.
There are various comples behaviour analytic reasons for this but I also suspect there are other issues. Professional envy sometimes as noone in the world of bheaviour analysis has been as successful as B & F at selling BA (by stealth almost) to the masses. That sounds like I am stirring so I shall say no more.

Just make sure your s/lt knows what she is doing with PECS.
Most don't.
I would ask her if she is an accredited PECS implementor.
If she isn't, I'd tread carefully.
She may be excellent but statistically it is unlikely.
If she hasn't done the 2 day basic introduction course I'd run screaming in the opposite directions.

The PECS manual must be your bible.
It is all in there and should be leafed until nearly falling apart.
I have prepared summaries of it for informal PECS overviews that I regulalry organise for parents and school staff so can send you those. I have helped supervise 4 different MScs using PECS, the most recent of which I have just taken delivery of.

You must count the no. of PECS exchanges a day. Without doing this you will not know where you are going. My one cdtiricism of B&F is that their data collection system is too complex. We instead track PECS exchanges on a standard celeration chart. It's easy to do and everyone can understand it. It's the 1st thing i ask to see when I go and review PECS progress.

at your wife's comment.
So true!

The best advice I would give you is to go on the PECS course with her, if you can, otherwise she is unduly burdened with trying to explain thingsa to yuo someone else could do much better and more quickly.

moondog The clinic is run by a well known S&LT who has been recommended on here so I know that she is experienced but I will ring up just to make sure that they have an experienced PECS implementer in their team.

We are going on the course separately due to childcare logistics. she will go first and I will attend later.

That's great that you are both going.

Yes, make sure she knows what she is doing in this field.

Noone can be good at everything.
I'm pretty confident with a lot of communication issues but if you asked me to deal with a hearing impaired child or a stroke patient, I would run very fast in the other direction.
S.lts can't know everythnig about every aspect of communication. The subject matter is enormous.

Okay, - so while you are all here I have a problem.

DS has been at his well resourced, high aspiration SALT school for 8 months (summer hols in the middle).

I understand that towards the summer holidays his behaviour became more challenging (in the sense that you lot understand, not agressive, just disengaged and disruptive). During the summer he was fine, made progress, we all had a lovely time etc.

Now the problem:

Since he has been back at school we are having to ask him to do things 6 or 7 times before he responds. He doesn't hear any more. I can no longer give him the freedom on his scooter because when I say 'make sure you stop at the red gate' he doesn't. It isn't a compliance issue as any rule or instruction I KNOW he has grasped he sticks to it loyally, but it doesn't go in in the first place - and the sad thing is, it always used to.

School have set him an IEP target of following an instruction when first asked, 4 times in PHSE. WTF? I would expect him previously to have met that target within an hour. It feels like the pre-ABA days when we just could not reach him and I feel we are losing him again.

We have his annual review on Thursday. I think it is unlikely the LA will be there so we might be able to have some frank discussions. I have seen his other IEP targets and think just what is the point of puting any effort into trying to teach to them when he isn't engaged.

Our relationship is falling apart as I am constantly frustrated by his lack of compliance (which is ACTUALLY lack of listening/processing afaic) and becoming very shouty, - because this is such a deviation from the norm.

Now the school say his 'distraction' is all sensory. Well it might be, but he was able to override it before so why not now?

Those early ABA days were hard. Do I have to return there quick smart? Do I have to pull him out of school whilst I get him back?

What can I do?

we have this, to some degree. sorry for crap typing, but bf a very wriggly ds.

dd1 lacks focus, at times. quite a lot of th time, really.

it is frustrating . i too become shouty mum. BUT:

dd2 can be the same, after a full week at school (and boy does she have full weeks, as does all afterschol activities due to my school run, etc)

I think part of it is typical small child, iyswim. take s look at the main boards -ask on there if prents have to ask more than once before their child hears them.

and, on the whole, the gains we get from dd1 being at her school (MUCH better language - we have real conversations; improved reading/writing; much improved tolerance of changing things which were previously unchangeable, etc) outweigh the losses - the not listening/lack of focus etc.

the way I see it, it is me that needs to change (again!) to fit in with what is happening for the majority of dd1's waking hours (in the week, during term time). so we work on focus at home, and leave a lot of the rest of it to school.

funnily enough, I have found that actually. dd1 is switching off because I am not expecting enough of her (ironically, since I sometimes have wtf! moments about her IEP and topic work - she is apparently doing well with work on colours at the moment - she has known her colours since she was 2 fgs!), especially socially and conversationally.

I'm going on the sat but prob too late for 1to1 on the sunday (on the waiting list).
ds is v nearly 7 and has ld as well as asd. New to ABA (couldn't make the moondog event and was v gutted) so is there anything I could do to prepare to get the best out of the day? Motivation and reinforcement by Robert Schramm has just been delivered but looks v v scary.

Someone tell me that 7 isn't too late to start (my mumsnet name refers to me rather than ds by the way!!!!)

Nonononononooooo never too late. Read Schramm a chapter at a time, it's honestly not too bad.

Star - yes I was going to say similar to Silverfrog in that your DS sounds a lot like my (largely NT) DD over the last year (she's just 6).

Not that helpful in terms of actually doing something about it, but perhaps useful in remembering he's also a child as well as one with ASD.

Obvious question but what is he getting out of the 'not hearing' or non-compliance?

I know that my DD often gets away with it and things are dropped or forgotten because I am human and have a small DS with autism climbing up the curtain nearby.

Thanks Schobe. Book has made its way upstairs for bedtime reading with notebook and pen sat next it expectantly!

star I told my wife about your last post and the first thing that came out of her mouth was that it could very well just be down to age as others have said, but you know your ds well so you will be a better judge of it.

How would the school and LA feel if you did take him out for a short while?
Is he doing well at school otherwise?

I guess I am just trying to see pros and cons. If you feel like you are losing him and its not just temporary/stress induced thats a pretty big con in my books. Then in your shoes, I would not hesitate to take him out of school until I felt he was ready. I should point out that I am known for being quite impulsive and not seeing the long game iykwim, so I could very well be overreacting.

would it be better (possible) for you to go into school and see if you can spot the problem? Does he respond in 1:1, small group, large group or has it gone completely?

Are they holding out for eye contact / him paying attention when he is requesting? Can they work on this eg expecting more from him when he wants something from them

Is he getting too much down (stim) time so tuning out?

If its sensory is it better in 1:1 quiet environment and can they then introduce distractions gradually eg play music, be distracted when giving instruction and build back up to instructions in group?

Does your DS have a reward system? Are the reinforcers strong enough?

Could he get higher reinforcement for doing it first time / faster?

Is he bored?

Star I agree with the questions Agnes has raised (as bloody usual, this is getting boring ) and the main things that occured to me too were:

• is he being 'allowed' to avoid demands or get away with not responding if asked a question?

• is he being reinforced for doing as you ask or responding to a question/demand?

• my ds has also just started y1 and until this week really, has been exhausted, esp after the nice long summer break. Common with nt children too. Wotrh spending a bit of time checking that he has actually heard and understood (and taken in) the actual instruction.

I'm sure you won't have to dive back into any intensive behavioural stuff but maybe just a refresher to help shape things up again. Just the basics, you know, making sure you follow through with what you say, be consistent, and reinforce positively when he does as you ask.

As it stands, if it is repeated (the request) several times, he is in effect being reinforced for not responding appropriately.
I'm not sure it needs to be pathologised.
If my kids don't listen, they forfeit something. (Not always obviously but if it becomes an issue then yes, and it has been an issue with my ds)
So, he doesn't listen when you tell him to stop on his scooter, simply remove his scooter.
He doesn't come to the table when called? Start without him (and dish out all his favourites to others)
He isn't in the car when you ask him to be? Pretnend to leave without him (being careful obviously).
I've 'accidentally' locked my ds in the house amd made to leave when he hasn't listened.

Agree-target pretty pathetic. Meand nowt.
Don't FGS pull him out of school over this though.
You'll look like a nutter.
Discuss a strategy you have tried out at home with them and ask their opinion (people love having thier opinion sought-makes them feel important, even if you then ignore it completely.)

See, I told you I overreact. What agnes,bialy,moondog said.

Thanks all.

The journey we have been on has cost us so dearly and to an understanding that we can only really rely on ourselves, that I'm probably expecting perfection where none can exist. I've also invested a lot in ds and it is hard to see someone else take over who is not so accomplished due to lack of experience with ds.

As frustrated as I am with the school they have a)Followed our suggestions about rewarding ds with pieces of marble run to put together at the end of the day, b)transfered this to his next class and substituted it for a tally for minutes with a tape measure (although I found out by accident, - it would be nice if they'd shared this with me so I could limit his tape measure access at home), c)put in place the interactive diary at my suggestion (again, the questions could be better at times and they could remember to do it EVERY day instead of 4 times out of 5, but still....).

You're right it would be crazy to pull him out but when I see some of the efforts lost I just want to cry.

Agnes, I'm not sure I can get into the school in the way that you suggest, but thank you for the list of things I can take to the Annual Review or parents evening. I do suspect too that he is bored in the subjects he is good at, and bored in the ones he finds challenging.

bialy I suspect strongly that whilst they have a reinforcement they don't make him work as hard as I would for it.

dev and silver I'm sure this is also just 5-6yr old behaviour.

Moondog Thank you. We're back on top and seeing results already. I called him to the table this morning for his porridge but he didn't listen so I started it (yuck). When he noticed and complained I told him that we could try again in 5 minutes. 5 minutes later, I called him to the table for a new bowl and he literally bolted into the room and couldn't sit down fast enough.

good to hear that star.

messmonster, I found this group on Yahoo groups. Group is used by parents and professionals who use PECS and is overseen by a PECS consultant from the company moondog mentioned. you might want to join in and have a look at that. groups.yahoo.com/group/pyramid-pecs/

Thanks Dev, I will. Am in the ABA group but didn't know about this one.

This thread just keeps on giving! Thanks

Star you are mad. Porridge is delish.
I eat it every day of my life.
Seriously though, all sounds good and remember, negotiating your way around other people and other ways of doing things is a vital part of education and improving communication.

Great link to the group Dev! (Shame I can never work out properly how to negotiate my way around a Yahoo group. I stopped going on the ABA one because it all seemed too complex.)

Stating the obvious star, but could he have a bit of glue ear/ wax etc?

Scooter: systematically reinforce obedience to 'stop'. Sweeties or whatever works. Then fading over a few days. The other stuff can come later, it's the scooter one that'll leave him squashed or you housebound!

Thanks maria. TBH the scooter one is fine. Don't stick to the rules and bye bye scooter.

WRT glue ear. I will get it checked as he has had grommets before and I myself had them a number of times so thank you for reminding me.

Moondog and anyone else that can answer this please?

DS has his Annual Review tomorrow. LA have sent their apologies.

Do I just fill in the form that they have asked me to (space for 2 lines each on numeracy, literacy and communication) or do I bring in the basic skills checklist, headsprout, TALC and Language for Thinking assessments?

Will they get angry and defensive or will it help a build a better team approach?

I'm not the best person to ask as that is standard practice in these parts as all are evidence based data driven programmes.
Hardly hot stones and crystal dangling.
I'm bloody delighted when parents act proactively like this.
Could you mention you are part of a parent support group which emplys services of professionals to share best practice and these are some of what has been recommended by said professionals.
Call it a PLC (Professional Learning Community) as these are all the rage in LEAs at present.

Thank you Moondog, and everyone really for holding my hand.

We had the annual review today and whilst they brought in their staff member reserved for 'troublesome parents' it was an excellent meeting.

I had the documents and assessments in my bag but didn't bring them out as I didn't need to. No-one had any doubt that we would be working with ds and that we had important information to contribute, and in any case it appears that the ds I know is the ds that they know with just a few exceptions that were helpful for both sides to hear about.

And that's that. An annual review like they are supposed to be, with apologies for having to delve into ds' weaknesses in detail instaed of denying they exist or blame them on the parents. I thought my last Annual Review was bad, but it isn't until I had a good one that you realise just HOW bad it was.

There were one or two areas of disagreement about how to proceeed. For example the OT thinks ds needs to work on his upper limb strength before sorting his pencil grip so doesn't want to work on that now. However, she acknowledged without us having to say so, that we didn't agree and would most likely be giving him grip practise over the hols so she gave us a quick lesson in how to do this with some supporting materials.

I'm astonished tbh. They are experts of course, but the difference was not made by their expertise, but by their humanity and committment to ds.