DD hurting other children in mainstream

[used2bthin]

This has been an ongoing problem, DD1 (nearly 6, genetic disorder and severe SLI and sensory processing issues) has now gone since the start of term from hitting, to pinching to jabbing children with pencils. Apparently she is fine one to one but does this in group times. It used to be just unstructured times.

She is so far behind the other children and the teacher is very good and says she knows its due to commnuication issues but obviously its very worrying.

I am confident the school are supporting her well, they are recording it all and psuhing for full support including lunch times but this is new and is worrying me. Her behaviour at home is also out of control, tomorrow I have booked a GP phone call so I can ask for CAHMS referral but DD needs help now, any advice or experience/

Had long chat with the teacher about dd's future in mainstream, is it possible to stay in when she is hurting children so much?

I'd say its possible for her to stay with the correct support. After all you get some kids with no SNs who hurt other kids just for the fun of it with no reason and they stay in mainstream with no support. Fight for all the help you can get

Thanks yes, the teacher said they know she does it when overwhelmed or struggling to understand the situation so they treat it accordingly and she does get great support there (just will be easier for them when the LEA finally get themselves sorted with funding for hours etc) but I am scared at how quickly this has escalated and worried it'll get worse. Theother thing is is there much point being there if she ends up one to one all the time because every time another child is near by she hurts them.

But I really hope this can be sorted with the support being put in place. And you are right about other kids doing it too. Poor poor DD she seems so anxious atm, I feel I don't manage her that well at home always and its just got so much worse since dd2 came along.

used2, sorry to hear that this has got you so worried.

As you know my DS1 is not yet at school but I have worries about his behaviour at preschool, like your DD1 he also hurts other children when he's frustrated - his thing is hair pulling. On the advice of the Ed Psych the staff stepped back from helping him all the time (he has limited mobility over any uneven surfaces) and they found that the lack of one to one meant his hair pulling really escalated. They started providing one to one help again both physically and to make sure someone was close by to read his signing and his hair pulling stopped.

So I would say definitely push for 1 to 1. For DS1 it means that someone is on hand to communicate with him, and to help him communicate with and to join in with the other children not to do stuff with him on his own. Without this help he can't interact in a positive way so resorts to a negative one iyswim?

Its really difficult with two, I think even for those who don't have SN added to the mix. I often feel I'm refereeing and that I don't handle things too well.

Thank you both so much I can't tell you how much it helps to discuss this with people who get it.

Hanbee that is so similar to dd then,they said the second they even turn to talk to another child she hurts someone. And thank you yes two is hard-DD1 was great to start but now is dangerous around dd2 so I am glad I get the school day at least where it is safe to leave dd2 to be on her mat etc. I feel dd1s behaviour is ruining our lives atm, its the same with her dad, my parents , school so at least I know it isnt just me though, I did feel like it was at one point. She just seems so angry!

Zzzzz, that has really made me think. The are pushing for more hours, so she will hav efull time one to one support (they applied in April but still not had response despite the senco doing lots of chasing) but actually the senco told me they would be covering the hours anywy for now. Now I am wondering what happens at lunch time if they don't!! I will ask to clarify tomorrow. DD1 has a good relationship with one of the lunch supervisors who has a child with sn herself so at least I know she looks out for her but I will check.

Its so hard to know what to do. The sn school head said that theres no point calling it inclusion id dd1 is on her own all the time with the TA. And that makes sense. OTOH she has BEEN settled at this school before and she is still happy to go in the morning, parents are nice, its a five mi walk etc. Also I wasnt sure about our most local sn school in terms of peer group for dd1. You are right it has to work though, how is your DS doing now?

ps zzzz I was told the same by our hospital psych re time out etc-they are trying to do it before it gets out of hand now she's in year one-reception had a time out spot which was so counter productive and the psych never did get back to me about going to school.

I am doing time out at home now though as I just don't know what else to do? She happily goes for time out which tells me its no big deal to her! but then i do take away a toy, stop her doing tv time or whatever too which causes tantrums but none of it is really working.

Should add that school and me use visual aids and timetables and I do sensory integration stuff which school are willing to do there too just need to sort training out again now she's in year one.

With dd who can be aggressive towards others at transition time and when demands are placed on her, the 1:1 Positions herself so as to protect the other dc. So when working in classroom dd has own table. For freer activities like art she sits with others. At tidy up time or other key difficult moments such as end of playtime TA deals with dd and other children do not 'help'. aggressive behaviour is punished by time out and very unhappy sad faced TA. Whilst none of this is perfect it seems to work for dd. I can absolutely see why you are so worried though because each time dd does manage to hurt someone I am mortified and also terrified that placement is in jeopardy. does your dd have 1:1?

Me drawing pictures works well for dd too, more than sticky cards/pecs type things as she obsesses then over them-must tell school .

ABA appeals to me but am not sure how I would go about getting a tutor-have been using some stuff from a link someone put on here, good idea to do a thread about it as there is lots I don't get about it. Thanks for ideas.

I think my fear has always been watching DD lose her confdence and happy nature due to lack of provision here (no s and l unit in the county for primary level) and it feels as if it is happening, I am upset I listened to the early years inclusion teacher about dd not needing a sn school.

My worry now is that as she reacts very badly to change, if I pull her out she would be the same or worse just in a different setting and they may not be any better for her. I guess I need to visit more schools though. Is your DS now at sn school or is he home schooled?

cansu yes she does, 30 hours so full cover. Its hard isn't it, I wonder what other parents think and also what damage all this does to dd, the trick is definately to get in there before it happens. I honestly feel like keeping her off atm but I know that would get us back into the cycle of her not wanting to go in. Also tbh I can't cope at home with her atm

Oh brilliant, thats lovely to hear. I do wonder what dd would be like without the pressure of school because she responds so well to quiet focussed one on one or small group learning. BUT only when its not me!

I think the first thing to do is start ABC (antecedent, behaviour, consequence) charts to try and see if there is a pattern to the behaviour. It's good the teacher recognises it's "communication issues" but you would all definitely benefit from analysing that a bit more.

I bet that after a couple of weeks you'll see that there are triggers and a pattern to it. It might be attention-seeking (ie she plays up and gets more attention for it), might be avoiding the work if it's too much for her, it might be sensory problems (overwhelmed by large groups). If it is as the teacher says, when the work gets too much, that's a clear indication that she needs more tuition and support with this, eg prep in advance on what topics are coming up. My ds really plays up (not aggressively but just gets really silly and tries to get a laugh) when the work is hard for him. It's a smart way of getting out of the work! If she has SLI keeping up with topics being discussed at carpet time will be really hard for her, so it's not surprising she's playing up as she probably isn't understanidng half of what's going on.

Anyway. Once you have some clear data on when and why it is happening it will definitely help with formulating a plan of what to do, how to avoid it.

But in the meantime, I would be pushing for an absolutely zero-tolerance approach to this. It sounds like, as zzzz says, she is getting more attention for aggression, which is totally reinforcing the behaviour. So she needs to get the idea that hurting others results in no attention, no special treatment for her, and actually something negative happening. Depends whether you do "punishment" or not but this could mean withdrawal or removal of previously-promised treat (like the tennis ball thing), or a simple time-out (more grown-up equivalent of naughty step) where she is immediately removed from the situation, put on her own with no toys or distractions. She gets no attention, except telling her once "dd you are going in time-out for hitting".

Could also try tick/cross charts, we do these with ds sometimes. At the beginning of the day he gets a blank chart with 10 spaces for ticks, and 10 fr crosses. Each 'good' behaviour gets a tick, each bad gets a cross. It is amazing how much more he is motivted to get ticks than he cares about getting crosses.

The bottom line is that she should get tons and tons of attention and praise lavished on her for behaving nicely without being aggressive, but no attention (except for removal) when she is being aggressive.

(This is our ABA approach btw - I've tried to simplify it for everyday use!)

Thank you. Really helpful to read these ideas and I will try an ABC at home. DH and I decided it tends to be when she feels my attention is wondering and she is ok one to one but she definately loses it quickly and finds it hard to come back iyswim. And I think you are right with carpet time, she finds it hard and its an escape route- I know in her statement it says about pre tutoring before group times though which should be helping if they are doing it.

The time out thing is how I am doing it so that is reassuring. I had a crack down on behaviour towards the end of the holidays and it did help but struggling again now. dd is good at trying to engage me though, saying "door open" or "thomas after time out" to distract me, should I ignore her during time out?

Also, not related to school but what sort of strategies do you /would you use out and about?

Am up b feeding but been awake ages worrying about all this. My lovely girl getting angrier, its so awful to watch and she gets so upset when she has hurt another child its as if she didnt want to do it.

I think because there isn't a suitable alternative that I have seen. DD has limited language but does want to communicate and talks a lot, she also has age apprpriate iq when it comes to non verbal tasks BUT I know a ss would actually understand this more than a mainstream. The issue in our area is our local one had no verbal children in her year group when we looked. I think they recently had an influx from mainstream schools though and now have a class that may be more suitable.

I put dd into the ss holiday scheme to see how she got on and they had no violence issues there but when she came back she was still very aggressive to me. So hard to know and I am struggling with my options locally, I think a split placement could be good but then I can also see it could confuse her more so she'd need the majority of time at one place.

We have moved to a village because DD had attended the playgroup here and the school were so supportive, it seemed best at the time but now I am having doubts which confuses the issue more. We bought a small house to be able to afford to be here. Argh sorry for that outpouring of issues but what I am really saying is I am definately open to SS and think DD long term will be better off I am just scared of choosing the wrong one or uprooting her only to find things worsen AND we have lost the local support here (a fair few mums whose children have SN in the school who I have got to know a little)

Thanks, I think I'd b able to think it through more clearly if I was less sleep deprived too. Just spoke to GP who agreed a referral to camhs was a good plan.

DD1 is pretty verbal, superficially, and is actually quite astounding when she can communicate her understanding (she understood about the 'fogclouds' and told me about 'orca whales' a few weeks ago). Her speech is unclear, and she has wordfinding difficulties, etc.

She is seen as 'just right' for her SS. Her friends (not just fellow pupils, but the people she gets excited to see) are a mixture of verbal, non-verbal, minimally verbal, signers, PECS users...it makes no difference to them or her, because everyone uses signing all the time. Their preferred method of communication is such a small part of who they are.

Tbh, if she was at MS, I'd be having the same conversations as you are with yours.

Lougle our dds are so similar. I definately think for my DD it is probably more a case of finding the right SS rather than whether it is best for her or not. I suspect it would take a year for me to argue it out so I am concerned that I would need to feel sure its the right place before battling it out.

I wasn't even allowed a visit to the SS I think could be more suitable as we are not in catchment for it and recently met a woman at a support group who has just been to tribunal to get her son into it despite being in catchment AND being in a mainstream school who were backing her and saying they couldnt meet his needs! So worrying. Think I will ring the local one today to ask to look at the new class.

Feeling pretty devastated though at the thought of leaving the lovely mainstream one, its what I have wanted for DD but it isn't working as I had hoped.

Sorry not lovely because its mainstream btw just nice place, friendly parents and teachers. And we moved here for it so all tied up with that-suspect DH will want to move further out a bit eventually if we don't need to be here because of DDs needs. We will need to uprade the house at some point and could have a bigger one if we werent in this area but I was desperate not to move dd at the time! Live and learn I guess.

Ok, so you need to move to the Winchester area, then she can come to DD's school

Ah yes I do! Actually have a friend in similar area whose DS goes to a great SN school, she thinks resources are generally good there! We are about an hour away. Ha ha think DH would kill me if I started saying again we have to move for schooling related issues!!

Just waiting for ss to call back.

And dreading pick up time!

Get packing DD1 goes to Shepherds Down School. The head is just fantastic. In fact, the whole school.

Oh I wish! Would love that.