why would school rather label my child 'bad' or 'product of dysfunctional family' than aspergers? am v angry

[dollydanderfluffofwillowbottom]

ds1 (7) hasnt been doing well behaviour-wise at school for over a year now, i suggested adhd and depending on the teacher/day of the week/whether or not they felt like it school has disagreed or agreed with me several times.

this week he has spent 2 days in isolation, one day at home and 2 days in trouble. so i decided to take up my friends mums offer of an assessment (she has worked with sen kids for a long time and really knows her stuff).

she ruled out adhd within 5 minutes of seeing him, but says she is convinced it is aspergers syndrome, which i think is very positive as it is fairly mild and from the way she was talking once some strategies are in place at school he will do much better. his behaviour tends to get worse when he is stressed which she said fits in with aspergers. having done a bit of reading on it (not a huge amount yet) i am also convinced, everything just clicks.

so i went to a meeting at school today, very pleased that we may be able to get something sorted. 'i dont think its aspergers' his teacher said. despite not having a tenth of the training of my friend, and depsite the fact she has never taught a child with aspergers, the idea is kicked under the table. and we go back to 'well you and your ex dont get on well do you'

i am so angry! this could have been so positive, and although they said they would try the strategies we suggest, if they wont believe the way he is thinking, i dont see how it will help. i have had to grit my teeth a few times when he has been told he has been bad as it is clear something is not right and this is more than just naughtiness, but school would rather blame me and ex than look in to possibilities like this

i have applied for a statement from the lea myself, as the way things are going he is going to be expelled, but the ed psych refused to come out saying she saw him last year and cant add anything to what she said then (she agrees it is down to dsyfunctional family). my friend says we should get the national autistic society involved, and i am very happy that i have a professional on my side who is willing to fight for my ds

not sure if this was a rant or a request for advice, but have had such an up and down week, i feel the positive stuff has just been ignored and we are back to square one. WHY THE %$&* WONT THEY EVEN BLOODY CONSIDER IT???

The school cannot diagnose AS or ADHD and neither can anyone in SEN no matter how qell meaning and experienced they are , unless they are qualified as a doctor. Have you spoken to your GP and is he/she supportive. You will need to get your child refered to a specialsit in this to get a diagnosis.

If the stratagies work ,and they are perpared to try them, that has to be a good thing, don't you think?

I am sure that there will be more MNetteres along soon to give you more detailed information

Unfortunately you cannot apply a diagnosis of aspergers this lightly. You will need to get a referral from your gp and go for further assesments I believe.

Sorry if this is completely beyond the pale, but, and I am asking nicely here, COULD it be down to the relationship between you and your ex?

dolly - sorry you are going through this. My own dd aged 6 1/2 is currently being assessed for Aspergers by Camhs.

This is the triad of impairments in Aspergers \link{http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=458&a=5489\here}

The school cannot diagnose so your best best is to ask your gp to refer yon on for more tests.

Good luck. Remember mum always knows best!

i know it isnt a formal diagnosis, but it means i am no longer clutching at straws as i have something i can actually work on. we have been referred to a clinical psychologist but he has a fairly long waiting list. we have seen the school doctor twice and he was worse than useless. i need something to happen before he is thrown out of school and i dont know how long that will be.

the thing i am annoyed about is that they refused to consider it, and just carried on blaming me and x splitting up. ds2 is in same situation as ds1 but doesnt have the same problems. i know its good they will try the strategies, but from what my friend was saying you have to enter into the childs way of thinking, and as they completley ignored what i was saying and dont seem to have much idea about aspergers, i dont see how they can do that.

i have always felt that i was working with school, for the first time now i feel i am fighting against them. i just dont see why its so bad to say you might be right, we can try it. how does it benefit anyone to pretend its not happening?

they wont condier it as you need a formal diagnosis. without that 'label' officially in placve the school really cant take your word. you need to get referred asap. its it higly likely my dd2 is somewhere on the spectrum but untill we have all the assessments done and a formal dx i know i will be hard pressed to get things in place for her.

Hi.
If you have concerns you need to get your GP on board to refer you for assessment.

I'm not sure about Aspergers being a mild condition, certainly its the high functioning end of the Autistic spectrum, but with it come the obsessions, the sensroy issues,the need for routines and predictability...

Does your son have trouble relating to his peers and with language [not a delay, a problem deciphering it]can he empathise? is he imaginative? does he insist on routines, is he obsessive about very specific thngs? whats his talking sound like?

sorry, lots of questions.

Its very hard ot get a statement with a diagnosis , let alone without one, so really your first step should be to push for a full assessment, your GP will be able to refer you to the local CDC or unit that deals with the process.
good luck

emma x

And were there problems before the difficulties you had with your partner..

Without a formal dignosis schools find it almost impossible to get a statement, and without a ststement they don't get any extra money for support.

If your son enters the SN regester at sachool action level, he will have an IEP and the school will carry out the stratgies that you have mentioned, but in reality that is about it.

Once you see the clinical psychologist you get moved to school action plus, if you child is then supported outside of school , by say seeing a councellor or getting anger management. But the school will still be at 'stratagy' level since they will not have any funding at this state.

i knew someone would think i was taking it lightly, but that isnt the case at all. i havent just decided this myself, infact i had no idea what aspergers was til the other day. things do get worse when my x is acting up, but my friend says that stress makes the behaviour worse. we split up 5 years ago, he wouldnt even remember us being together. now i am thinking about it we can see examples of of possible aspergers before we split, we just saw it as normal toddler behaviour or at worst slight eccentricities which we didnt consider a problem

i realise she isnt a doctor, but i am willing to believe this friend as she has worked in special needs in mainstream and has worked with autisic kids for many years. she spent a year doing a masters and reading up on aspergers. she knows what she is talking about, and everything she said fits ds and explains his behaviour beautifully. according to my friend, she had pretty much decided what the problem was just from what i have been saying about him over the last few years, she has been picking up on the indicators for a while

im not asking school to diagnose him, i am asking them to consider it could be aspergers and treat him as tho it is, if it works, i dont care whether we ever get a diagnosis, i just want him to be ok at school and for that to happen i need his teachers to stop thinking he is just bad, and start thinking that maybe he doesnt see things the way the rest of the class do. im not asking them to spend any money on him, just to be a bit more understanding, have a timetable he understands as many of the problems start when something happens he isnt expecting.

i hope things get sorted for you bloss, i have had a look round that site and am reading a book called martian in the playground which is brilliant, lots of experiences from people with aspergers in it and the more i read the more i understand ds1s behaviour. i have also phoned them to ask for them to send out an aspergers child info pack (recommended by friend).

i didnt mean aspergers was mild emma, i meant my ds's symptoms were mild, but they get worse when he is stressed.

btw, we filled out the connors questionairre and it indicated he had adhd, but he has not been offered any help for that so far so my faith in doctors is not all that great im afraid

he is already school action plus - does that mean something ought to have happened by now? he has been on it for months but nothing has changed as a result

he is very bright, has a great imagination, is on 99th percentile for literacy, not sure about numeracy, teacher says he isnt as good at that but that he gets all the questions right when he is assessed (so not sure what she means). he says he is bored a lot.

School action plaus should mean that there are agencies outside the school acting on your son's behalf. You mention he has seen the ed psych, so that could be the external 'support' that makes him on school action plus.

But in reality the stratagies used will help he, even if there is no formal diagnosis. If the school can implement them and help him, then in the short term that has to be a good thing.

And at the risk of being blown off the board all kids SN or not can be naughty sometimes. It is all part of being a kid. Even getting a Dx will not explain all his behavior

So in the week when a child I teach (who has a diagnosis of ASD) told me that he was swearing because he had tourettes(which he does not) it wasn't his ASD that was making him misbehave, it was him being naughty.

I hope you get some movement soon on this, it must be very difficult.

But the reality is that the school cann't except anything other than a formal dx/ I can spot a lot of ASD as I have worked with a few, but I can't make the Dx.

There are online tests that can be used as an indicator that you could wave under someone's nose to help you get help. It's good that you've been referred to a clinical psych- good ones (and lots are good) really know their stuff.

If the school have little understanding of AS then tbh the dx will do bugger all to help (other than give you something to pull them up on-which helps- and an option to fight for resources- I just mean it prob won't help change attitudes)- I agree with you that unless they take your son's issues on board then trying the strategies won't help. One thing I did out of exaspderation when ds1 was in mainstream (he's severely autistic- now in special school thank god) was to write out a behaviour chart which read something like "if ds1 does X then respond with Y". I inssited thst anyone working with him had to read it first. I'm sure it put their backs up, but their mismanagement of him was making his behaviour escalate out of control. That did work better than the numerous discussions and explanations that had gone before.

You could ring up clinical psych and ask for cancellations.
You could also try BIBIC (wriggly ds3 on lap so haven't got link- but you can google) despite the name they do see a lot of high functioning kids with AS.

thanks for all the replies so far

mb, you are always the voice of reason! i know he is naughty sometimes and i wont be letting him get away with everything, but it would help if they tried to understand and thats what i feel they are refusing to even try. its the understanding which seeme to be most important thing, they keep telling me there is no trigger to his behaviour, my friend said there will always be a trigger, they just dont know what it is. when i mentioned this they didnt want to know, just repeated that there was no trigger and it was up to ds to calm himself down, i am told it is very unlikely he will be able to do that without their help so its just a downward spiral as he gets more frustrated.

jj - she has given me this sheet to hand to school to fill in so we can try to identify stressful situations (she said it will help with statement process), also has given me some strategies to ask school to try. she has offered to go into school and speak to them about aspergers, doesnt want paying or anything, but school arent interested. it just seems like they dont want to know. i will try bibic aswell, thanks very much

I would say the school would need a diagnosis and can see why they arent keen on your friend going in. She isnt an expert on aspergers and isnt qualified to give a diagnosis or advice.

I agree with others who have said you need to see your gp and get refered for a diagnosis.

i dont understand im afraid nothercules. in what way is a woman who has worked with these kids for years not qualified to give advice? she is a qualified special needs teacher, not just a random person off the street and they are depserate for help. we have been referred for a diagnosis but it is going to take a very long time. am i really supposed to just put up with the lack of understanding until then? because if thats true i will take him out of school now. you seem to be thinking the same way as school so if you can explain why it would actually be very helpful as i might understand where they are coming from

Fully agree that they will need to see the 'big picture'. Are they going to implement the stratagies?

Personally I think that's a bad sign- them and us blah blah. My friend has a similar prob at the moment- her dd is dxed AS, was doing very well at school- SENCO changed, problems started- a lot of the most qualified professionals in the are have been trying to go in with advice- the school didn't want to know- friend's dd is now refusing school (oh fantastic) and has regressed to where she was5 years ago in terms of accessing places like schools. Anywya the shcools hand has now been forced. If you compare that to ds1's special school- where anyone who offers to come in is greeted with open arms ....

the sheet sounds a good idea- knowing WHY behaviours occur is essential- something I struggled to get through to ds1's mainstream school.

oh missed a sentence - the schools hand has now been forced and they\ve been told they HAVE to have the pros in. No idea if that will help when they're so determined not to listen and do it their way (like that's worked).

they said they would. parents evening is tuesday so i will have a list of stuff by then. im just worried that they are so convinced he is 'bad' (his headmistress told him that the other day) that they wont make allowances. i have said many times he doesnt seem to understand that he has been naughty and that the normal thought processes between him getting angry and him lashing out seem to be missing, but they just say he is such a clever boy he must understand. half the reason i want them to speak to my friend is that she knows so much more about it, i dont know enough to convince them to make exceptions.

seems insane!

We are busting a gut atm to get kids refered! we have an 18 month wait for ebd

Interestingly our local consultant is totaly rethinking his veies of the bast place for eduvcation more affected ASD children. He has finialy come to the conclusion(!) that for many m/s is not best and they may well do better in specialst schools! Only waht everyone else has been saying for a while

i am starting to wonder if a change of schools would help actually jimjams. they seem to have made up their minds already about this and i know there are other schools in our area who actually run support groups for kids like him, one inparticular has been recommended by a few people, tho his class teaacher said that would be absolutely the wrong environment for him (couldnt say why tho). home ed is something else i have considered but he would then lose out on the social interaction, and that is his main problem area so running away probably would do more harm than good

SOunds like its worth looking at the other school. TBH kids can collect dx until they're coming out of their ears, but if the school aren;t supportive or interested....... My friends son was dxed with AS after years of school problems. The head said "I don't believe it" and expelled him. Great. Helpful.

i dont understand why people like that go into teaching. surely you go into it knowing that it isnt all going to be straightforward. i was so positive about this because if they would just listen and try my friends advice, it could make things easier for everyone

nothercules - i dont know if you are a professional or have any experience with this, but i really am interested to know the reasons behind what you said. if you can shed light on what the school are thinking it could be very usefull, i didnt mean to sound like i was ranting at you.

am off out for a bit now, thanks for listening everyone, if there is any more advice i would be v grateful :)

My ds had real problems at his last school and their attitude was a bit like your ds school seems to be. In the end things got so bad there that I took him out. I was fortunate that being only 4 at the time I could put him back in preschool where he was happy and start him again in a new school the following sept with the LEA agreeing to backyear him. He doesn't have a dx but he does have a statement as it was onvious to anyone that worked with him that he needed extra help even if no-one seemed to know why. I agree with the others to push for an assessment - in our borough that is done by the community paed. The reason for this is if the school keep saying his problems are due to problems at home the LEA are much less likely to give him a statement and in the end we have found that a statement has been much more useful than a dx as it is a legally binding document that the school are obliged to follow - having a dx will not force the school to give him the right support.

The paed said last oct that he thinks ds probably has aspergers as he has a lot of the traits. DS won't be assessed until he is 7 but in the meantime the paed recommends that we treat him as though he has AS as the statagies will work. Since then we have been doing this at home and school are also using the right kind of strategies and ds is unrecognisable from the child he was in his old school.

Could you get your friend to talk to the school with you? It seems to me that they have made up their mind and even with a dx your relationship with the school may not be the best. Perhaps one professional talking to another in language they both understand may help change their attitude to you and your child while you await an official dx.

Hi Dolly,

I think even if you were to get a firm and official diagnosis of AS along with a statement, this school will still not want to know and will still try to exclude your son. Infact their mind is more than half made up already to do this. Have seen this done at my son's infants school - there are no autistic children there now (the previous child got permanently excluded on head's instructions). They just did not or could not work with the child and family.

I think its also fair to say that some schools are far more adept/interested in dealing with SEN that others.

I can also understand your frustration at dealing with the teachers' ignorance of same; I had a teacher tell me that in her words, "she could see traces of AS in my son". This from someone who has had no training at all in AS, she would not recognise an AS child if he or she came up to her and said hello. They don't pick up dyslexic children in my son's school either (again through ignorance) but that's another story.

It is certainly worth looking at another school as well as getting your GP to refer your son to a developmental peadiatrician or clinical pysch.

Also contact the NAS (National Autistic Society) - they may be able to help also.

I am a secondary teacher and work in a special needs school.