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Moose again, sorry. Advice on what qualifications etc TA/LSAs should have?

32 replies

moosemama · 09/06/2012 16:41

Ok

So we've decided to appeal. EP advised I ask around to find out what qualifications and courses are currently available for LSA's/TA's to attend to ensure they are appropriately trained with regards to ASDs.

This has come out of them trying to remove his outreach teacher and replace her with a TA who has attended the same 1 day 'awareness' course that the rest of the staff (including the dinner ladies and handyman) have attended. EP agreed that this was not enough training or experience for them to be able to carry out the sort of emotional literacy and social/communication work with ds that he needs, but said she is not up to date on what is available so can't advise further. Hmm

I have a couple of numbers to call next week regarding local provision - but was wondering what other people have specified and/or if anyone knows of a generally accepted national standard. (Obviously I know there is no such thing, but I'm trying to gauge what seems to be the norm, iyswim.)

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cansu · 09/06/2012 18:25

at my ds ASD school many of the TA's have NVQ level 3 qualification and of course have had lots of other training provided by the school. Have you considered asking an independent specialist school what training / quals they require in order to get an idea of best practise. When I looked into this for my ds tribunal it turned out that LEA special school TA's had no qualifications and had very little if any ASD training. That said, my dd's TA has no formal quals but having done two years ABA with us is the best TA you could ever hope for.

madwomanintheattic · 09/06/2012 18:31

Not asd, obv, but no 1-1 that has worked with dd2 as the statemented TA in an educational setting has ever had any qualifications... And when I worked as an LSA with lots of ASD teens, I didn't have any either...

For specific emotional literacy and social / communication rather than general support, it does make sense though. I am pretty much horrified about the lack of training in sn circles, across the board. I would love to see an overhaul of the system to actually get kids some knowledgeable support.

appropriatelyemployed · 09/06/2012 18:46

I'm afraid you will just find a massive disparity in qualification levels. But many TAs, I think it is true to say, do not have much SEN training of any sort, but then neither do teachers.

Trying to get specific training into the statement is very hard as it is completely resisted by LA and school despite the fact that it is clearly best for everyone.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue it obviously, just that it can turn into a battle.

My son's current TA is qualified teacher but she lacks basic ASD training and so the same battles occur that you would have with an unqualified TA. We have the added problem that she is considered fabulous and left to do her own thing because she is a teacher.

It is understanding the reasons for the statement, being able to be open and work with those supporting the child and being able to engage the child that are key. But I agree that decent training underlies all of this.

AgnesDiPesto · 09/06/2012 18:58

Generally they don't have any training.
But look at Autism education trust they publish reports fairly frequently about upskilling staff and may be working on some kind of accreditation.
ICAN do lots of courses.
PEACH and Ambitious About Autism do courses.
Many teachers will go on a TEACCH course.
NAS run courses including one called Socialeyes which I think is for social skills.
There is something called Achievement for All which is the current new thing for schools to be doing for SN - but thats more a whole school approach.

The Dept of Education advertised a scholarship scheme recently (date expired now but should still be on their website) for courses for TAs working with children with SN. It had a list of eligible courses.

DS has an ABA trained 1:1 and they get ongoing on the job training + an intensive introduction to ABA and they all have degrees. The difference between them and the untrained nursery 1:1 DS had is huge.

SN training is poor, most of the ASD teachers don't have proper qualifications themselves e.g. they will go on the beginners PECS course but not get themselves accredited to teach PECS even though they then go round the LA teaching others and saying they are experts! The level of training for SN is really really poor.

When we were faced with perhaps the tribunal making us use a TA rather than an ABA specialist we asked the ABA consultant how long it would take to teach a TA how to teach social skills and he said a minimum of three weeks and even then some of them would not get it. Given no LA releases their TAs for 3 weeks of training let alone 3 weeks on one area then you can see that the chances of getting someone outside ABA with sufficient skills is minimal. The only exception is someone who has worked with children with ASC for years and skilled themselves up, but these are thin on the ground.

The same is true of social care - many social care teams work with teens and adults on the spectrum and mostly they have only done a 1-2 day course.

At our tribunal the autism outreach teacher told the tribunal she was an expert in ABA (and so no need for us to use ABA team). When asked what training she had had she said she was booked to go on a 3 day course (she had not even done it yet!). The SEN Officer looked completely confused when the ABA team listed their qualifications and experience and said 'but the parents have been doing ABA and they have no qualifications so surely anyone can do it'. She could not get her head around the idea that you would need more than 3 days training to teach a child with autism. Yet in medicine if you suggested a 3 day course was sufficient to start delivering complex medical interventions you would be laughed at.

In our team we have ABA tutors who are graduates and get enrolled into 2 year training programme + ongoing training (DS has 3 tutors and they all work with other children each week too); a supervisor who has done 5 years minimum ABA as a tutor and sees DS 12 hours per month, a consultant who has over 20 years ABA experience and sees DS every 3 months. I realise thats the ideal but it shows you how far short LA provision falls.

There is a difference between setting the programme and implementing it. The person who sets the social skills programme needs to be really experienced - the TA delivering it does not but only if they have regular supervision and training / guidance from someone with lots of experience e.g. 5 years plus working with similar children and proving good outcomes.

You want the TA to have done some training and have experience with similar children but you also want a much more experienced ASC practitioner setting up, demonstrating and evaluating the programme on a regular basis.

I think the idea TAs can go on a course then go back to school and deliver an intervention in total isolation without ongoing support or advice is a model doomed to fail. Sadly that pretty much sums up SN support in the UK.

blueemerald · 09/06/2012 19:00

I'm afraid that anyone with any formal qualifications/potential/decent experience will not hang around on £8 an hour (what I currently earn) plus no pay in the holidays for long. I'm leaving to start my PGCE in July. The LSA system needs a total overhaul, it's failing children.

moosemama · 09/06/2012 19:56

Thank you once again folks.

There would be ongoing back up from a well trained and extremely experienced (think 15 years +) outreach teacher. I'm not liking the idea of third person support, rather than being able to think on their feet and problem solve as problems occur, but accept that that's probably what we're going to end up with.

What I'm wanting is something more than just 'awareness' I want them to at least attend some modules on emotional literacy/social skills training and I get that they might not have that straight away and will probably need to acquire training as an ongoing thing, but equally I don't feel it's appropriate for someone with essentially zero knowledge of how having an ASD affects emotional regulation and literacy trying to teach him these skills, even with more experienced 'supervision' to fall back on.

Agnes, thanks for your detailed reply and ideas of where I can look to find out more about what courses are out there.

In my ideal world, I would want them the keep the outreach teacher he has had 1:1 once a week for the past 18 months, at least until he is through the secondary transition period, but I'm being told that is a definite no, despite the fact that she has apparently told her bosses it will seriously affect his mental wellbeing if they stop her sessions with him. Sad

I am also really trying to avoid him ending up with one particular TA they have in the school who knows nothing about confidentially and even less about ASD, despite telling anyone who'll listen that she is an expert. Angry

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alison222 · 09/06/2012 20:34

In our LEA the ASD school run courses for the TA's in the mainstream schools.
Also the school is on a mailing list with the NAS as they pass on details of the local courses to me. I think that some of the TA's have attended these courses occasionally.
The TA DS has at the moment spends a lot of her time buying her own materials and researching things. She is fantastic. We will miss her so much in secondary. I have yet to see what the TA's will actually be like in practice there - but we wrote into the statement that they would either be ASD trained and/or experienced in working with children with ASD and also a number of hours for the outreach to come every half term and help/observe/ devise programmes etc.

EllenJaneisnotmyname · 09/06/2012 20:47

In my LA the advisory teaching service provide a 3 day course for TAs working with DC with communication and interaction issues. This was 3 days training with online coursework and tests to complete. Interesting, and a good first step for those with no ASD experience, but I learnt nothing new. The TAs' qualifications on the course ranged from nothing beyond basic school levels to those with NVQ level 3. (and those with irrelevant degrees Wink ) The course leaders were teachers and in most cases ex SENCos, so toed the party line. Sounds better than your one day awareness course but probably only 3 times better.

EllenJaneisnotmyname · 09/06/2012 20:51

Oh yes, forgot. In my LA statements either specify 'qualified' TAs or 'unqualified.' 'Qualified' means either NVQ level 2 or above or up to 5 years relevant experience. With no definition of relevant experience... I started as an 'unqualified' TA working with a child with behavioural difficulties, as they'd take anyone willing!

moosemama · 09/06/2012 21:29

Thank you alison and Ellen.

I guess I have a bee in my bonnet about it because my dsis was employed as a TA to work with a child who had ASD and she not only had zero experience,, knowledge or awareness. The stories she told me (confidentiality again) would make your hair curl. Basically she got the job because they were desperate and she was available, she hadn't even been a TA before, she was just a mum with a child at the same school. She loves children and did care about the child, but didn't 'get' his ASD in any way shape or form.

This was before my ds was dxd, but she has never been able to handle/cope with him and spends most of her time telling me that, 'all boys do that' and 'my ds does that too' etc. She only lasted a couple of months in the job, but has since gone on to offer babysitting services advertising herself as ASD experienced, yet she still has no training or experience in the area and positively avoids contact with my ds.

The employment of unqualified, inexperienced people to work with vulnerable children (who by their very nature need qualified, experienced support) but who have no interest or impetus to learn more and take on the necessary skills, just pushes my buttons I guess.

I get that some people will be unqualified/inexperienced to begin with, but those that are interested and keen to support the children properly will make the effort to learn what they need to know and the schools should be required to ensure they have the opportunity to do so, in the form of professional development. Blimey even dh's job in computing requires regular professional development in order to keep up with best practice and latest research/knowledge etc.

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EllenJaneisnotmyname · 09/06/2012 22:11

It's a tricky one to be sure. My DS's current main TA is lovely and 'gets' him so I forgive her for her poor spelling etc. Blush I know she's not 'qualified' although his statement requires it, but in his case, the school are choosing to give him full time (if unqualified) support over and above his 15 + 5 hours, 26 hours lessons and a breaktime and lunchtime club, more like 26 + 6 hours, so while it's working I'm not quibbling. The 'fit' of a TA to a child is more important that any qualification, though I'd personally prefer a good fit and decent training and educational standards.

You almost definitely won't get a say in who your DS's TA is, so you do need to make sure that the statement specifies their qualifications and/or experience at the very least, to give you some influence.

moosemama · 09/06/2012 22:16

That's it Ellen, we won't get a say, so I need the statement to offer at least some protection.

To be honest, if he had a TA who got him, but didn't have any qualifications and limited experience when they took him/her on, I would be ok with that, if they were willing to keep his outreach teacher for his emotional literacy stuff once a week.

I really want to fight for that, but don't know if there's any point if it goes against standard outreach working practice so I'd be flogging a dead horse. I do know that outreach to unstatemented children who have ASD is free to schools, so maybe I could try and push them to buy in that 45 mins per week?

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EllenJaneisnotmyname · 09/06/2012 22:21

I don't know. It definitely seems counterintuitive to reduce access to specialist support when a child has a statement and to leave them in the hands of an unqualified mum, potentially. Our advisory teachers saw much more of my DS during transitions and only came in to advise 3 or 4 times a year other than that. Hmm.

moosemama · 09/06/2012 22:34

It does doesn't it. In fact couterintuitive is the nicest possible way of putting it.

He only needs her for one more year at this school and a few months handover at the next, then they can have her back - that's not greedy is it?

At the moment his teacher has weekly contact with his outreach teacher for advice and support, and as a result has learned to handle him beautifully. He is honestly a different child these days precisely because they have got the balance right - so to reduce it is complete and utter madness.

It's that age old thing of, "Ooo look how well he's doing, we can take away his support now, because he's doing so well he obviously doesn't need it anymore". Er ... no, it's because the support is right for him that he's doing so well. If you take it away he's going to crash and burn again - without a shadow of a doubt. Angry

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bochead · 09/06/2012 22:42

Insist on ASD Outreach at Tribunal if your kid needs it. The whole damn point of tribunal is that it's an opportunity to override LA asinine blanket policies to enable a statement that meets a child's need for an "adequate education" ffs!

I asked for 13 hours a term ASD outreach + an ASD trained TA for 21 hours(lessons) + 5 hours (breaks) a week. This was despite the Head of SEN for my LA (mere town hall officer not enough) declaring to the panel that my request was unprecendented for a child without a clinical ASD diagnosis Wink

The LA offer was 21 hours anyol' TA. No outreach or training. I got a whole school inset, 4 ASD outreach hours & that 21 + 5 ASD trained TA. It was what the panel considered adequate.

The involvement of ASD outreach seems fundamental or there's no point having a statement at all in this case. I'm a firm believer in picking your battles carefuly, but for the life of me don't see how you can avoid this one.

p.s Also have a sis who proclaims her "ASD expertise" as a TA - she's just lucky she does it at the opposite end of the country or I'd send DS in to set peeps straight Wink

EllenJaneisnotmyname · 09/06/2012 22:45

To be honest, I do have plenty of ASD experience, but it sometimes counts for nothing 'cos the damn DC are all so bloody different! Grin

moosemama · 09/06/2012 22:49

Thanks bochead, that helps a lot.

I think I am going to have to head to head on this, as it's fundamental to ds's needs at this time. Without that support he will end up out of school, so it will all be irrelevant anyway.

I have had the unprecedented word thrown at me as well, but by the SENCO rather than the LEA. I think it was in there with her telling me we were asking for a Gold Standard education for ds. Hmm Nearly fell of my chair laughing at that one.

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bochead · 09/06/2012 22:51

True dat Ellen! Would still like to send DS & his army of Daleks & stick insects into my sister's classroom one Monday morning after one of her more irritating "I know it all spiels" though Wink

moosemama · 09/06/2012 22:55

I accept that Ellen, but you also have a store of tried and tested strategies to call upon when necessary - whereas someone less experienced would need to go and ask what to do every single time and meanwhile ds is left hanging with no effective support.

I can see this might just about do as minimal provision for smaller everyday problems, but not for the biggest single transition he's ever had to go through, particularly when a full year ahead of time he is already terrified about it.

The EP even put in her report about how ds refuses to think about the future and when he does finds it terrifying and traumatic to the extent that he is unable to focus or engage in learning. She also states in several places that transition is a consistent source of anxiety for ds.

So, I think we have no choice but to fight for continued 1:1 outreach, as without it I'm fairly sure he will end up with another breakdown - as predicted by his outreach teacher.

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moosemama · 09/06/2012 22:58

Grin at bochead.

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PurplePidjin · 09/06/2012 23:01

I once worked with a lovely lady who had ELSA qualifications. They were emotional literacy things, but i don't know any more.

My experience is the same as blueemerald - once you're qualified you become expensive and therefore unemployable. And 15 hours a week at £7.50ph doesn't pay the mortgage, so the TA jobs go to Naice Mummies who want to get out of the house for a few hours a week...

EllenJaneisnotmyname · 09/06/2012 23:05

I'm agreeing with you really. I have close experience of my DS2, the child I support and at least 5 friends DS's, as well as more limited experience of others from my DS's old SS, as well as all my MN friends but it's not enough experience to know what to do at something like a big transition. My own DS can often completely surprise me by managing the big changes, like a day trip to France, really well and being floored by 'mufti' day. Just because he's having a bad day.

What I mean is that you still need the 'expert' who has seen many, many DC with ASD, and how they cope with the big transitions and the big issues, so she'll have even more strategies to offer to your DS's TA and teacher.

auntevil · 09/06/2012 23:30

Sad at a lot of what has been said. As a 'naice mummy' Grin Hmm Biscuit, our school only employs NVQ3 plus - and any existing staff that would not sit the qualification were 'culled'. All TAs go on basic NAS courses and some who have an interest, and all LSAs go on the extended courses. The SENco has a big list of 'extras' staff can do too.
We have input from SALT, OT and Physio.
But the ones that are the best in our school are some of the 'naice' parents - as one is a dad! - who love kids, have children with a variety of behaviours, who accept the children as they are, listen to the parents for advice, and put in above and beyond to make sure they are not just 'babysitters'.

moosemama · 09/06/2012 23:35

I know you're agreeing Ellen, I think we're all on the same page really.

It's the same for my mum who is a psych. She has a lot of skills, knowledge and experience up her sleeve, but still needs and in fact is legally required to have regular supervision sessions. Imo, that's exactly what should be happening here. That and dedicated, interested, qualified and experienced TA's being paid their worth instead of employing cheaper 'babysitters' in their stead. Angry

No-one has all the answers and therefore constant supervision and contact with 'experts' is a necessary part of the system, but it doesn't negate the need for children who have ASD to have knowledgeable support.

If all TA's were like you two, there wouldn't be an issue and I'm sure there is a chance of ds getting someone equally dedicated. What I'm wrestling with is how to word his statement to give him the best possible chance of that happening, especially if they are going to remove his weekly outreach emotional literacy session in favour of this being done by his TA.

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bochead · 10/06/2012 09:01

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I'm not impressed by NVQ's. Like the PGCE they don't give an individual the skill set needed to comprehend a child on the spectrum so I didn't bother to ask for that type of training on DS's statement.

Common sense, a humble attitude, and ASD specific training was for me a far more accurate description of what DS needs. The importance of the TA/child personality "fit" is often overlooked too. Oh and easy access to the ASD outreach team - who DO have a significant amount of expertise. In my LA ASD outreach is a 12 strong team - that's a LOT of brain power & experience to help solve any seemingly intractable issues that may crop up.

We've all learnt the hard way that needs change as children grow and that as soon as you resolve one issue another comes out of left field, esp at times of transition.

DS's TA is off to do teacher training after 18 months. It is too poorly paid to do forever. It is a concern that I have no input into who his replacement will be, & could be one area where perhaps this direct payments malarkey the government is touting could perhaps be useful?