Siblings - Behaviour???

[chillikate]

Hello Ladies,

I am a Mummy, a MNer and an Assistant Beaver Leader. I'm hoping you may be able to help me out with the last of these.

We have a lad (Yr 2) who has fairly recently been causing us some behavioural issues. It mostly appears to be attention seeking. Since we have introduced a yellow / red card system he has been insistant on getting as many as he can (his words!!). He has been threatened many times with calling his parents to collect him and this week we followed it through, with the biggest screaming / shouting / temper I have ever seen when his Dad arrived.

He is the middle of 3 boys. His older brother has very complex special needs, and part of me in wondering if this could be causing any of his issues (I don't mean his brother, but perhaps the amount of time that his parents need to devote to caring for his brother). His parents have also noticed a decline in his behaviour at home and have kept him off Beavers as a punishment. I haven't wanted to suggest that his family environment may be playing a part because I wanted to look into it a bit first. He parents are lovely and seem like they are trying hard to raise their 3 boys as best they can.

I am concerned that my leader will go down the route of excluding him but if its understanding he needs rather than a troublemaker label then I'll fight against it.

Of course it may just be that he is a little tearaway!!

Any advice / experiences of your own children, or anywhere I can get further advice??

Thanks

I agree with stopping the cards it's not working so why bother. Ds has ASD an conventional reward/consequences don't work.

You need to talk to the parents and find our what he does respond to

I expect the cards are in use for the whole beaver pack?

There is always a reason for bad behaviour whether it be SN, family troubles, neglect etc children are not born bad, or 'tearaways'
Perhaps he has mild SN himself
Surely the point of Beavers is for children to mix with others of different backgrounds.
Your system is not working because you issue threats and then have only seen them through once. Why give a red card if you were not going to follow through? You need to have a system of clear, consistent rewards and sanctions and stick to them every time.
yes he may tantrum the first time, and the second but then the tantrums will reduce because he knows you will stand firm.
Are you praising him to the rooftops when he is behaving well?
What about giving him a reward chart? or a special job to do to engage him?
I have a child with severe SN and my other children are beautifully behaved despite having hardly any of my time or attention.
You seem to be saying we will work with this troubled child if he is deserving (is behaving badly because of neglect) but not if he is undeserving (because he is just plan bad).
Any child who is behaving badly at 7 needs understanding and consistent adult boundaries not exclusion.
I just looked at the scouting website and it says
Personal development means promoting the physical, intellectual, social and spiritual well-being of the individual, helping them achieve their full potential. In Scouting, we believe that young people develop most when they are 'learning by doing,' when they are given responsibility, work in teams, take acceptable risks and think for themselves
Sorry but if you choose to work with children, you must accept they come with different needs and backgrounds and should be prepared to develop all of them, not just the ones who make it easy. Otherwise aren't you are just excluding the children who need activities and support outside of the home the most?

Gosh, I didn't expect a slating!!

We have 18 very active Beavers in the group. The red / yellow card system has only been in place a month and has had immense benefits for the group as a whole i.e, it works well for 17 of them. The SCout Association guidelines on challenging behaviour are to work with the parents, so I'm "information gathering" to enable me to do so. It also states that the child shopuld be excluded if it is having an effect on the other young people or in causing a danger. I DO NOT want this to happen unless we have explored all avenues.

Ultimately we have to have rules as we also do as a society in general. They must apply to all. But what we CAN do is look at activities where we can get the best out of him and establish what situations may trigger this behaviour and avoid them.

In terms of us "not following through", as I said, we only introduced this a month ago. We formed a policy which states that if a child is given a red card their parents will be informed. This will either be at the end of the meeting, or immediately, as appropriate to the situation. As it was very new during the first 2 sessions we agreed to tell the parents at the end of the session, and they were told both times. The third session his parents texted the leader to say that he would not be coming due to his behaviour at home. That takes us to this week.

PLEASE HELP ME or this boy is at risk of being excluded. My feeling is that we have a lot to offer him, including activities that he could not do with his parents due to his disabled older brother and his toddler younger brother.

Can't you see I just care??

Why did you introduce a card system? It sounds a bit silly (though I'm not having a go as many schools make similar mistakes).

When introducing a behaviour 'system' you can't do it arbitrarily. It needs to be focused on the individual. Does he enjoy beavers? Does he really have a thing about collecting cards? If so, how about giving him say 3 orange cards during beavers that could be taken home and exchanged for something his parents have promised on receipt of 3 cards? He would have to get his 3 cards regardless for the first couple of days although you'd be sure to find a positive reason for each one, but then your behaviour expectations could increase once he has learnt the system and 'guarantee' of whatever report!

Chilli, I did think the responses to you were a bit harsh, but on here we get so frustrated with behaviour systems that are introduced that simply won't work and the subsequent blame of their ineffectiveness on the child.

It was based on the system from local schools and what is run in other Beaver colonies successfully. We have had a big behaviour problem in my group (not just Beavers - cubs & scouts too). We in in a busy town centre with the social issues that tend to exist there.

The way it works is that a Beaver will get a warning for any unacceptable behaviour and sit out for 5 mins. If they then go on to repeat that behaviour they will be "given" a yellow card (like a referees card - not actually given a card) and their name will be written down. If they repeat that behaviour they will be given a red card and the parents told. All names are scrubbed off the list at the end of the meeting - they start afresh the next week.

We also give points to their lodges for being good / helpful / sitting quietly / trying hard / trying something new / winning a game. The lodge with most points at half term get a small gift.

We also have a "beaver of the month" who gets to wear a special woggle. This boy had this a few months ago.

We introduced this system in response to behaviour issues with around 6 of our young people. At this point his behaviour was not so much of an issue. Unfortnately in a group setting like this you do need a "one size fits all" approach.

I'm really hoping that he is allowed to come next week (after half term). We are doing a Beaver & "Dad" sports challenge which I think they will both really enjoy.

Also, I am working with 2 male, under 25 leaders. Neither have children. Part of my struggle is to get them working consistently (and perhaps this is my biggest challenge).

I wish you would see that I just want to help him :(

So back to my original questions:

Has anyone had any issues with the siblings of a SN child and what sort of feelings do these siblings have??

Or am I creating a scenario that doesn't exist??

I can see that chilli, but you also say you don't want an individual approach but a one size fits all. This child is going to be excluded because he doesn't fit the 'size' you have decided upon. Seems a bit unfair.

Ultimately if we decide to "punish" negative behaviour it needs to be to all.... a child cannot see that another child is allowed to get away with murder, but what we can do is find ways of preventing the negative behaviour and therefore not putting him in that position.

For example, he has never displayed the behaviour that he has done with the other two leaders when he is working in my group. So one possible scenarion might be that rather than rotating as we do, that each of us has a group to look after, and he happens to be in my group.

'Ultimately if we decide to "punish" negative behaviour it needs to be to all.... a child cannot see that another child is allowed to get away with murder,'

Why?

'but what we can do is find ways of preventing the negative behaviour and therefore not putting him in that position.'

Yes. This is how you woukd start a successful intervention. By increasing the chances of his success at behaving appropriately and establishing it as a pattern. It is essential that when it brings about the better behaviour it is rewarded (regardless of whether any identically well behaved children see this reward).

I am sorry chillibut I don't think there is such a thing as a one size fits all aproach to behaviour.

Children respond to strategies differently but I would say a positive system would be more likely to work than a negative one.

Have you heard of "The marble in the jar" where children put a marble in a jar everytime they do something good.

It sounds like this little boy needs some attention and doesn't care how he gets it, if you could give him some special responsbility or some one to one time his behaviour might improve dramatically.

Also make sure he knows that you like him, children with challenging behaviour often start to think that adults dont like them and then they don't care how they behave.

This is meant to be constructive by the way.

good luck

Thank you.

Perhaps my issue is more the other 2 leaders rather than this one poor lad who deserves a lot better :(

I don't think it's horribly productive to assume that he is behaving this way because he doesn't get enough attention from his parents due to his brother's SNs or his toddler brother. That may or may not be true, and I just don't think it's beneficial to assume it. (not to mention it's a bit condescending "oh poor child, parents don't have enough time for you" kind of mentality) Our DS2 has complex SNs and DS3 gets plenty of attention.

I also don't think it's helpful to assume that because your system is working with others but not with him that HE is the thing that needs to change. Perhaps you could be a bit more creative and think of other methods. Positive reinforcement almost ALWAYS is more effective than negative/punishment methods.

If you (and the other leaders) are planning on working with children, you need to be willing to put longer than a couple weekly meetings into establishing a rapport with a child - sometimes it takes much longer - and you need to remember that if a particular method is not working (or having the opposite of the desired effect) then you need to be flexible enough to adapt that method to something that works better.

A suggestion... stop looking at this situation as "how can I get him to behave" and think of it as "how can I get him to engage and enjoy the activity?" I would imagine that will give you much better results IMO.

Triggles - that is precisely why I have come here - for advice. This is totally outside of my knowledge base and I need advise from others. I have not ASSUMED that his family situation is a factor in his behaviour, I am exploring the possibility that it MIGHT be.

For future reference, Scouting leaders are VOLUNTEERS. I work full time and I have my own 5 year old son. I do this because I enjoy it and I am doing something for my community rather than moaning about it. I do the best that I can.

I will go elsewhere for advice where perhaps people can see that I am trying to help him as best I can rather than just allowing him to be excluded.

Chilli we're blunt here. If you look at other threads in the section you'll see the same. It isn't personal. It comes from lack of time and to some extent patience to spend time beating around the bush. Not to mention a level of frustration that affects our very being, with the assumptions and quite frankly lame solutions to problems that our children cause people.

You've come straight to the core for advice, and you've had it raw. Please don't let that detract from the fact that it is excellent, if blunt. And, you are quite possibly right about the other two leaders.

Sorry that you have been slated Chilli. I can see that you really care about helping this young man.
I have a severely disabled DD and my DS (the younger sibling) has had behaviour problems since he was at nursery. He has in fact had a diagnosis of ASD although he is definitely at the 'mild' end of the Spectrum.

Over the years we have tried many reward and punishment systems - so many in fact that they became ineffective. However, it sounds to me as if this boy does respond to rewards as he delights in collecting yellow and red cards!! I think maybe he needs some visible reward chart for him personally (not just the points gained for each lodge)and maybe you could make an arrangement with his parents that he can earn a treat for X no. of points.

My DS still plays up at school from time to time even though he is now a teenager, but interestingly enough it is only with one or two members of staff. I think he picks up on who will least effectively deal with his behaviour and who he thinks he can push his luck with. It sounds as though your little chap is doing something very similar. Two young, "child inexperienced" leaders are not going to have learned strategies for dealing with this type of behaviour (unless you are going to tell us they are teachers!!!). Either this boy needs to stick with your group while his behaviour settles down, or you need to have a meeting with the other 2 leaders to discuss firm strategies for dealing with him consistently, so he doesn't get the message that the young leaders are a 'push over'.

As far as the Beaver and Dad sports challenge is concerned, I agree, it would be good for them both - I don't suppose this young man gets much 1-1 time with his dad because of his brother's needs. Can you work with the parents and put together an action plan so that he can join in and hopefully continue at Beavers? It is so difficult for families like theirs to socialise and take part in activities, that it is so important that this little chap is given every possible chance to contnue at Beavers.

chilli you are taking the advice the wrong way.
You posted on the SN boards. it is full of people who have been battling the system to prove that their children do not respond to a "one size fits all" approach. This happens in schools too and the children who do well are the ones who find a teacher who can adapt their approach to find something slightly different that works for that child.

What everyone is trying to say to you is that since your system of cards isn't working you perhaps need to try something else if you do not want your child excluded.

I Know that all the leaders are volunteers and I saw at first hand how my DS took less notice of the younger leaders with no children. They were lovely and friendly but just didn't have that "I mean it" look and voice. It meant that they didn't have as much authority.

Lots of people have suggested positive encouragement for behaviour. I see that you do some of that from your posts. I also think that perhaps you have got it right when you say that for now you should have the child in your group as his behaviour is better for you - at least until your young leaders have a bit more experience

I'm quite well aware that scout leaders are volunteers - I actually did this for a few years when my DD was young.

You've mentioned it a couple times, and therefore I pointed out that it was unwise to make that assumption. That is called "advice" which is what you asked for, is it not?

Ah come on guys. The OP has avoided just going for the 'naughtily' label, which is mist people's instinctive response to a child for whom an otherwise successful group behaviour system isn't working.

Let's educate rather than condemn, it's not education where people are trained and paid to know their jobs, this is volunteers doing their best in 2 hours a week why might need our help to get it right.

Both my big dc do beavers, and the leaders are well aware that dd is more likely to play up during the times when we're struggling more with the big one's SN. Her swimming teacher has noticed that she has 'some traits' and allows for those.