SENCO says...LONG THREAD ALERT

[UnCharteredromaeosaur]

hi all

i'm a bit sick of the sound of my own voice atm, but i need some help in thinking straight about this, so please bear with me (please)

DD is 4.11yrs, in MS has dx of ASD with SP difficulties in all 5 areas. SALT assessment shows 4yr gap in expressive language/vocabulary (8.10yrs+) and non-literal understanding (4yrs).

During our assessment process it was noted that DD has been 'sensitively parented with social interpretation' and although has not shown many traits outside the home, the ones that are presented are very obvious. I take this to mean as she has 2 adult DBs (both of them lived with us for the 1st 2 yrs of her life) and they have (of course adult) g/fs she has always had lots of input for interpretation of the outside world - lots of protection. DS2 works with vulnerable children in a Social Care funded child care setting and has been invaluable with working out coping strategies (damn i'm gonna miss him in Aug when he leaves home) Yes, she is probably 'indulged' maybe even 'spoilt' to some, but hey, she's a special little girl, in more ways than one, now it seems.

She has an IEP, is on EYA+ and has both physical and verbal support to go to the toilet and to eat. She doesn't eat from the snack table at all unless prompted, she doesn't go to the toilet unless prompted.

Fast forward now to a meeting DH and I had yesterday with the SENCO and DD's CT. We've now got the SALT and OT paper reports as well as the dx so since they are planning for Y1 now, CT has been asking for the info to impliment in class.I didn't actually receive the SALT report until the post came yesterday.

We sat round a table, which I had to get out of the corner of the room. SENCO said 'that's a bit formal' I said 'I've got lots of papers to share, isn't it easier to share if they are on a table' SENCO said 'I didn't think we'd be here that long'

We all sat and read the SALT report together, lots of nodding from CT - he remarked on the gap in DDs understanding 'so she talks the talk but really struggles to understand then? that's important to remember' SENCO said 'lots of kids don't listen'

We read the Sensory Profile/Report and Recommendations together too, again lots of nodding from CT.
This report is broken down into 3 sections - Sensory Processing, Modulation, Behaviour and Emotional responses.
SENCO said 'what does vestibular processing mean, never heard of that before' i said 'it's about balance and spacial awareness' SENCO said 'did you have to look that up' i said, 'not the OT explained it to me' SENCO said 'oh right, know a lot about this do you?' but didn't wait for me to answer

there are some strong recommendations as a summary some of which were...

work in small groups or individually SENCO said 'we do that already'

to offer the use of a fidget in class SENCO said 'i've got those in my office'

to use gloves if preferred when painting CT says, 'she does hate getting dirty, never thought of that' SENCO said 'it's a girl thing, they don't want to spoil their clothes'

to use weighted or heavy blankets or lap pads SENCO said 'oohh, what's that all about'

to use rocking as a soothing technique, perhaps a rocking chair in class SENCO said can't have that, she'd trap someone's fingers in it H&S would go mad

to use heavy muscle work to decrease arousal, carrying books, lifting chairs onto tables SENCO said no, we can't have her putting things on tables, we don't that with chairs anymore i said to CT 'Mr X, i think that means if you need anything moving or carrying, get DD to do it, it will help with her acknowledging there is change and physically soothe her' SENCO said 'we can't use children as removal men'

that DD would find crowds and busy areas overwhelming and would struggle to process important information in these situations SENCO said 'how can they say that when she stood up in front of the whole school and did so well in her class assembly' CT said 'she was given a set of lines, she repeated them. her memory for detail is fantastic'

i've come away from this latest meeting with lots of thoughts, and have tried to be as objective in this OP as i can, would anyone like to offer anything up here to help me understand what's going on here?

please?

Senco hasn't got a clue how to help your child, any more than the man on the no. 78 bus. It's not her fault - teachers don't get the training they deserve re SEN's. At this point you know more than she does.

Next step would be to get the professional that wrote the sensory & receptive language sections of the report to come in and explain it her. Teachers traditionally listen to professionals but ignore us Mums.

Make sure her CT has a copy of the report - that one at least was paying attention.

what if i tell you this SENCO is a dedicated SENCO - has no class to teach at all?

Give the SENCO the benefit of the doubt until the professionals have spoken to her.

She's got a copy of the report and access to google .

You can suggest she is the school representative on the NAS help plus course too. If she's a SENCO with no ASD knowledge (or class) she should, if worth her salt jump at the chance to attend.

I'll be back to comment. I'm waiting for physio atm. But grr....

SENCO sounds useless. CT at least was paying attention.

I would take this report and use it to personally apply to the LEA for a statement of special needs. IPSEA's website is good www.ipsea.org.uk. As she goes up further through the school system the demands made on her will increase exponentially and she may well find it increasingly difficult to manage with a resultant deleterious effect on your homelife.

EYAP honestly is not really up to scratch as the support offered on it is not legally binding and can all too easily be ignored or curtailed.

You are your child's best - and only - advocate here.

Sounds like you have a sound CT who is willing to listen to the specialists view and use it to implement strategies. This is worth A LOT. If the CT is prepared to do stuff (like gloves) ignore the SENCO for now - they don't have to teach your DD, the CT does. Sounds like the SENCO needs the training being offered. Personally I might write to the HT to say that training is available via the NAS. bochead is talking a lot of sense, although I REALLY understand your frustrations with the SENco. RE: wobbly / rocking chair, some kids will be happy to have a sensory cushion which does a similar thing (my AS DS didn't want to use his, but he was a bit older). It can go on chair or on floor at circle time. Also, for weighted stuff you could get a child's rucksack and weight it with favourite pictures books ?? which I've heard can work well. Are you applying for a statement? My advice is to do so, as it will give you strategies which by law the SENco has to make happen in school, written by the specialists which have assessed your DD and take into account your views too. Our SENco did not recommend we went for a statement - we were told by her that the LEA only gave them to excluded pupils. HT said he 'wasn't bad enough'. The EP said not to bother until secondary transition. After a long chat with the local Parent partnership who said ignore them as they don't want the paper work we applied for a parental statutory assessment and DS now has a statement. I won't pretend all is rosy cos it isn't, but at least everything is written down and you can refer back to it and if push comes to shove use it to beat the SENco with! Good luck to all :)

strange you should use the word 'obstructive' merlin - that's one i've used to describe her on many occassions

yes, she is IS obstructive - she has never asked to see us, i've always had to make the 1st move to get to see her, and this is often met with 'well i haven't had any copies/calls from Dr X/Y/Z' do you know enough about this to talk to me. my last call (to make the appt described above) had me in tears. we've had 8mths of very intensive scrutiny/assessment and testing, i thought we'd come to the end of that, that a dx was a key to accessing the support DD has had at home - not the cement for another frigging brick wall

she is very distrusting of me and DH.

about a statement, is it possible to get the assessment done, even though DD isn't 'failing' as yet? academically she's keeping up and really enjoying learning - i'm so confused about all of this

Am very inexperienced here but senco sounds like a numbskull of the highest order.

Class teacher sounds good. On a very superficial level, can you deal with him and get him to liaise with the SENCO at all times?

I guess you should work to get the CT on side. Ignore the SENCO and hope she comes round in the end / leave her to the CT. If not then get the professionals to come into school and explain it to her. That is their job to give schools advice.

I would work with the CT at re-writing the IEP to include some of these strategies - although you don't actually have any SALT recommendations yet. i.e. you know the problem but not what to do about it.

Are you convinced by the OT report? I always hesitate about OT as my DS was assessed as having loads of sensory problems but over time we just didn't see it. Things like not responding to his name were because he was distracted / stimming / not tuning in / not understand the expectation not because he was overloaded with noise. Some children def do need a lot of sensory / OT help; but for some children its not sensory its behavioural / language problem.

Equally by using rewards my DS will now tolerate messy play, haircuts etc things which used to be a nightmare.

Its a very personal view but I sometimes find reports say lets make lots of concessions - and wonder if that is just making it easier for the child / teacher - but not actually teaching the child to move forward. So the gloves. Is this really necessary or could they put in a desensitisation / reward programme that would mean over a period of time she would touch paint? It worked for my DS.

It may be some concessions need to be made but not necessarily be the first port of call. e.g. keep a favourite reward and if touches paint even for 1 second gets a reward, then build up. That way you can figure out if its a true sensory reaction or just she has decided she doesn't like it and is being inflexible. DS would never try anything new if we did not make him try by exposing him in small chunks and rewarding every step. He makes rules that he won't do things and we then have to break those rules down.

As with anything you need to put programmes in place and monitor if they lead to any change / improvement. So don't just put in a lot of strategies without also putting in a way of assessing / monitoring them.

Its not ok for the SENCO to say no. But you could say I want to try x - and we can they see if that leads to a change in behaviour etc. and review if its working.

You also need some autism expertise to set up programmes e.g. to stop her becoming prompt dependent / more independent. I would be looking for a programme to promote independence e.g. with toilet.

You also can't work on everything all at once, you need to choose a few key things and work on those and assess for progress. You have to be systematic.

The SENCO needs to get a can do not a can't do attitude.
These sort of adjustments are actually far easier and cheaper than the alternative which is lots of 1:1 work to break down the things she struggles with and teach her in tiny steps to adjust.

You have fook all to lose by making an application for a statement.

If nothing else it'll put a rocket up the SENCO's arse to read & understand the report and prove to an externa body what help your child is being given at school .

That's the worst case scenario if you are turned down btw!

The best of course is that your child winds up with the tailored support to ensure that the good start she's had to school is continued & that you have a legal stick to beat SENCO with in order to retain her attention. btw - DS's statement contains explicit reference to staff training in ASD's.

What a horrible day for you yesterday. I know you already felt annoyed with the SENCO before the meeting so maybe you were really defensive and almost ready for a fight. Yes I agree she doesn't sound like the most competant person in the world and her remarks were a bit flippant but her lack of expertise in this area clearly makes her feel quite uncomfortable and inadequate as lets face it this is her job she should know all this inside out yet she has a parent who is not a SENCO but has more understanding and knowledge than she will ever have she must be mortified!!
So I know you are very cross at the moment but personally I wouldn't be gearing up for a fight you have enough of that at home and it will only cause you more stress and will make the SENCO really obstructive and awkward. It is great that the CT is so willing to take onboard the recommendations. Start with the ones that are easy to implement and then if you feel it is time to try some of the others then ask ok so we can't have a rocking chair? Do you know what Mrs Senco you are absolutely right that would be a health and safety issue why didn't I think of that? So what can we have instead you incredibly clever lady? (All said through gritted teeth and with fingers crossed) It's just a bit of a game is all let her think she is great no-one likes being told they are shit. It is small steps and the softly softly catchy monkey approach works best.

Just think what are you going to achieve by having a big ding dong with this woman? It might make you feel better for an hour but it won't help your lovely DD. And it will stress you out to boot. The SENCO is new to this she is out of her comfort zone hopefully she will take onboard the suggestions and will learn as much as she can to help.

sorry Agnes we do have SALT recommendations, the assessor has sent me a model Social Story she's written for DD re; toilets and her anxieties using them. it's all sensory-based - smell, temperature, water splashes, noisy drier etc and have given school a copy of this to use also.

the Sensory and SALT reports read very well side by side, i thought i'd put that in my OP (i think i cut it to paste in another paragraph but didn't paste it in ) - the Sensory questionnaire was done by all of us at home, the SALT purely by testing at a clinic, so the fact the results match is testimony to DDs real issues and needs, i feel.

also, who is the instigator/source of most information in writing an IEP, please?

I think that HolyCalamityJane has it right. Get her to think that she is getting her own way but get what you need. For instance, DS has a Billy Bottom cushion that he has on his chair and one for the carpet. He also has a gym ball somewhere outside the classroom where he can go with the TA if they notice that he is struggling. DS has a similar recommendation re heavy lifting. I don't know if they do it but I know that he often takes notes to other classes etc so that he can release whatever it is that is bothering him sitting down.

Was it the Y1 class teacher that was in the meeting as it is really good that the teacher seems so on board with the recommendations but if she isn't going to be teaching her in September then you'll need to prep her as well as the SENCO sounds a bit pants.

I have learnt to manage our SENCO to get what DS needs. I have ruffled some feathers before but now I try to be as nice as pie so that no-one has any right to criticize me.

She's defensive with a 'can't do' attitude to to inexperience. It is 'possible' though not guaranteed that she might come round, particularly if you can manage to keep a good relationship with the CT.

yes, you can get a statement regardless of academic levels. DS2 is well ahead academically but struggles all day. he has FT 1:1.

Calamity thanks for the kind words and support - i understand what you say about not choosing another fight.

i'm a lot more calm than when i messaged you

i've rung all the HCPs again today and asked them to write to the SENCO specifically, see if this appeases her at all.

it still doesn't change the fact she seems to know sod all about ASD and is dismissive of any concerns we have - i'm going to look seriously now at applying for Statement

Ben it's her current teacher who was with us, but he was very geared up to sharing with the rest of her year group staff.

the staff move around a lot within the infants school, i wonder if there is any mileage in asking if DD can be in his class again next year?

I asked specifically that he didn't have his Y1 teacher again in Y2 as they have a mixed Y1/Y2 as well as a year 2 class. They were very happy to agree with this.

Ds2 is in a mixed Y1/Y2 class as well, which seems to work well for him. His teachers job share, so he has the same teacher 1 day a week that he had for 2.5 days per week in reception. It's worked out brilliantly in that regard.

I would work on a lot of the day to day stuff with the CT.
Its bo***s that they don't get children to do lifting - my DS has that as part of his sensory diet. Working with the CT we came up with tons of ideas when DS could help:holding the door open, passing round white boards, giving out book bags, running errands (taking note to office etc). It doesn't have to be physically challenging - just changes position, some slight resistance etc. That can all be done with CT.
Ask when the CT is doing the hand over to next year and write a list of all the things that need to be passed on. I can guarantee that you'll need to go in and remind the next teacher, but if they're aware, small things like you are requesting, shouldn't be an issue.
SENco - well thats another matter!

The Senco shouldn't be in the job with such a patronizing and obstructive attitude. It's bizarre, but many of the strategies, dismissing, trivializing, normalising and being downright obstructive are common place, to the point I've wondered along with other SENS parents whether is a manual out there, which they all read 'How to deal with difficult parents'. I had a Senco a few years ago at primary level with a similar attitude and the only way I could get her to do the things that were needed was to involve parent partnership and the Sens Governor, both of whom supported me. The Head joined ranks with her and I doubt much action was taken, so she is still there using the same strategies I am sure.