DD said school is too noisy. So worried this mainstream thing isn't going to work.

[used2bthin]

DD five and a half has been lashing out at school. She is way below the level of her peers in terms of speech, language and understanding and is classed as having severe s and l disorder.

She randomly hits and kicks children but only during busy periods or transition times.

Today I had a bit of a break through as she said "don't like school" (recent thing she can actually talk to this level so they are definately doing some good!) then when I said why she said it too noisy. Now, her speech production is so poor that if she'd said that to school I doubt they would have even understood what she said but I was impressed with how well she expressed herself.

Anyway it has led me to think that she is lashing out due to her sensory issues. An Ot went to school to advise on them but that was post statement and with a different TA who has now left so the OT stuff isn't on the statement.

I have emailed the SENCO asking can DD be given opportunities for quiet time and see if this helps with the behavioural stuff and will speak to the teacher tomorrow but I just feel lost with this, and as if I have no control over things which if handled badly could affect her seriously-she was always going to struggle in mainstream and it terrifies me that the gap will keep widening so much.

Any advice on what I could do? The school are very supportive but I am not sure they have had much help with it as the ed psych was not much use last time.

Have you considered any of the listening therapies? They can really help with noise sensitivity - and S&L problems

• Listening program
• Therapeutic listening
• Auditory Integration Training
• Johanson Method
• Tomatis

Thanks indigobell I will have a look at those. Am thinking school need something extra for her but not sure what that something is will have a google of those this eve and see if any of them sound like they would helpDD. She certainly has auditory processing issues and word finding difficulty.

I feel like we are getting nowhere with the support she has although I know her speech ad language is progressing just at a steady rate-ie still 1st centile but much better.

I know I go on and on and on about this.

But have you read my thread about solving DDs word finding difficulties?

This is what I wrote........

I am so excited / thrilled / happy!

DD (age 8 / Y4) has/had severe 'dyslexia'. The symptoms she has are:

• Unable to learn to read
• Unable to spell (Still gets 2 letter words wrong)
• Slow processing
• Huge memory problems
• Word Finding difficulties
• Auditory processing difficulties
• Eye tracking / convergence problems

We have been doing lots of different therapies with her, and are slowly making progress on all fronts. At the moment she is on the cusp of learning to read.

However, she had such a breakthrough with her 'word finding problems' last night, I can't believe it.

Normally if I ask her what she did in Maths I get an answer like this:
'I don't know what we did, but on the whiteboard was a 1 and a line and a 4' (I assume she was doing fractions)
Or a few weeks ago she said 'I don't know what it's called, but it was a line with a dot and a dot' (She was talking about division)

Last night I asked what she did in maths, and she said:
'Fractions' I couldn't believe it (that she knew the word), so I said, 'What did you learn about fractions', and she said:
'They have a numerator at the top, and a denominator at the bottom'!!!!!!!!

Absolutely unbelievable. She's never, ever had language like that before.

The thing that has changed is 2 weeks ago we went to Tinsley House, and started the first stage of their treatment plan which is to follow the Brain Food Plan . (Which involves multi-vitamins, dietary changes, and exercises for the cerebellum)

Tinsley House said it would help with her word finding difficulties - but I never expected it to help so dramatically, and in only 2 weeks.

(As well as Tinsley House, all 3 of mine have done Auditory Integration Training. It's very expensive, but has helped all of them a lot.)

Perhaps make an appointment to see the teacher and the senco. Does she have a 1 to 1 TA and do you know how many hours she is entitled to? If you have anything from the OT it might be worth passing it on. I worked with a child who had Aspergers and were given a load of stuff to help him with non-literal language. I got his TA to work with him on it 2-3 times a week and it was in our minds so we could help him, IYSWIM. So there might be things the OT has suggested that her TA could work on with her.

Transition times are difficult for some children but this is something she could be helped with eg it could be her "job" to be at the front of the line or to collect up the pencils so she's last and not being jostled, or she lines up with a TA who awards her a sticker if she manages to stay calm. Perhaps a "time out" area for her if she feels it's getting too much noise wise. Does it say anything about this on her statement? When is her annual review due? Because that will be an opportunity to update the statement and add (or remove) anything that needs to be.

Plenty of SEN children cope and even blossom in mainstream as long as they get the right kind of support. It's good that the school are supportive and the more info they have on your DD the more they can help her.

Good luck!!

In the meantime ear defenders might help her moderate at playtime or transition

A little girl at my son's school has ear defenders actually, to help her to cope when it gets noisy in class :) Maybe TA support at playtime too?

what do they currently do to help prepare her for transitions & noisy time. If her understanding is below par she is likely to need support during these times.
Is it confusion, frustration & anxiety causing her to lash out.

DS'S TA talks him through transitions (even the ones they do daily) & is supported by visual symbols & schedules.

So on a one to one she explains we will do x & then x & then we will come back to class. He can take his minischedule with him - this also gives him something else to focus on during transitions but he is sooo much calmer & less anxious at school as he has no scary unpredicatable times.
Also at breaktime or other noisy times he has a beanbag in the library that he is able to go to.

Thank you all. Indigobell that does sound amazing. We really don't have enough money at the moment to go private for anything but I will consider it for future. I find it hard with private therapies etc, of course if I KNEW there was guarenteed success I would do anything but we are struggling atm and not in a position to even be paying back a loan.

tabbycat7 she has 15 hours one to one with a TA but we have just asked for 30 after the annual review. We discussed her behaviour at the annual review but the teachers said she was doing ok with the strategies they were using at the time (keeping routines, letting her que first , letting her use the bathroom ahead of others so she doesnt get stressed by the hand dryer,using visual stuff if necessary and time out) I don't get the impression it is that consistent and there was no mention of the OT stuff I don't think, there is a new TA and I am not sure what is being done with DD now as they don't seem to keep up with the home link book anymore. I feel desperate to manitain good relationships with them and hate feeling that I may be seen as telling them how to do their jobs when they have been so good about everything but am never clear on what they do and don't do-for instance they are meant to sign with dd but am not sure they do. They also have decided against the communication book that the last TA was setting up because they feel DD is keen to communicate anyway and too lively to stay still long enough to use it. But DD's s and l means she can't make herself understood easily at all and she has limited language.

ohmeohmy good idea I will see if dd would tolerate wearing them first, she can be funny about stuff like that. I should also say she has grommets so may literally be hearing things too loudly.

slacklucy those are the kind of things recommended that happen with dd, lots of preparation and visual stuff. I am not sure that it does though.
And yes it is confusion I think, she is dreadful at home if something is unexpected and struggles with leaving the house even to go soemwhere she wants to go.

Hi Used2B,
My dd is the same age (well just turned 6) she has ASD, ost of her sensory issues are to do with sound, luckily there are only 13 children in her class so its not overly noisy. She has a pop up tent in the book corner where she can go if things get too much, a few months ago she could not go into assembely or lunch in the hall, she has now had therapy 'theraputic listning' and things have improved, her therapy ended a month ago and she has regressed a little but can still cope better than before she started the therapy. We also use a lot of visuals with her to prepare her for different situations, she has meltdowns but they are short, she is removed from the class room by her ta and they do OT in another room (squishing with a gym ball and lots of deep preasure). She holds her ears when its noisy but again this happens less sinse the therapy. I'm sure my dd will end up in a sn school as she gets bigger and the meltdowns are harder to control but at the moment they have refused us a place as apart from her language skills she has no other learning difficulties.

Its hard isnt it to maintain a good relationship & check that they are doing all they should.
I often use the excuse of checking that i'm doing the same at home "for consistency" & as the conversation develops you can remind them of previous suggestions that they should try.
Ask them to restart the home/school book, again to make sure you are supporting them at home
So get your point accross but make sure they feel they are the good guys.

I actually just turned up with a beanbag one day & said "oh this has worked so well at home for calming ds2 that i thought i'd get one for school, is the library OK?" I then collared the TA, teacher & ds & said sohow is ds going to use this, how are you going to know he needs it etc!

Hi Marne. I think that sounds great- is the class of 13 in a mainstream school then? The gym ball and deep pressure were recommended by our OT too and she was going to look into getting one- I think I will give her a call glad you reminded me.

DD doesn't have melt downs but will just randomly hit or kick whoever is next to her, this makes her look naughty and is not making her popular

I am going to ring two sn schools tomorrow to look around but suspect I will have a battle on my hands. DD has serious medical needs which also complicate things btw as school has lots of info on it but its a complex condition to manage and can also affect her behaviour when her medication levels are wrong. I had thought we'd turned a corner as she'd been so calm since having her doses adjusted but this I think must be seperate. Feel like school must think I am always making excuses for her. DD also has few or very minor difficulties with physical stuff and I bet they will say her learning difficulties are not severe enough for ss. But then I feel cruel putting her through mainstream as she is developmentally so behind her peers and so obviously stressed by it all.

slacklucy please come and be me for a day to help with school! I think I am particularly bad at all this atm as am almost 37 weeks pg and prone to mood swings and tears! Not that they have seen any of this btw I just feel it is a risk!

used2bthin... use those tears...dont waste them, its amazing what a few tears will do to help you get your own way

Honestly though i may look brave when i stroll in to school but then burst in to tears when i get back in the car. We are all human!

Dd's at a ms school, its a small school but most classes have 30 children, for some reason dd's year was a small intake (and a few children have left) but this is perfect for dd. Dd has 2 gym balls, a peanut ball and a spikey gym ball (which she loves being squished with). Dd has never kicked or hit out (though she will push people out of the way if they are too close). Maybe your dd could sit inside a hoola hoop whist sat on the floor so no one can sit too close to her (so its her own little space)?

We have good days (where i think ms is the place for her and she's doing great) and then we have bad days (where i just want to pull her out and get her into sn school). It is stressful but so far dd is working at the same level (in some cases higher) as her class mates so it will be hard to get her into a sn school even though her sensory issues and her language delay is severe.

slacklucy yes you are right I should be using my delicate condition to my advantage Seriously I am embarrassed at the email I sent the SENCO today but at least they will know I am a bit stressed atm and I think I will make an appointment to see her.

Marne I am the same with school, last week I was so pleased as the teacher came out to say how well she was doing with talking and she seemed so calm all weekend.Today is a day I feel like not sending her tomorrow- but I will. IO also lost my temper with her for something not really her fault after school and shouted at her badly which won't have helped her stress levels, feel awful about it now, really awful it was souncalled for and she has enough on her plate without me being a cow.

DS does not have sensory issues at all but he still struggles in mainstream classes due to the noise / he gets so distracted. Its actually not surprising, have you heard the noise level of the average reception class? Its extreme.
He has ASD and speech disorder, understanding etc behind.
Mostly he is taught everything in 1:1 sessions and then they generalise into the classroom, but he cannot yet learn new skills in the class - he has to learn them in a quiet situation and then he can use them in the noisy environment.
He finds it hard to cue in to the important bit - e.g. teacher talking - against everything else to look at / listen to etc. So for e.g. he will ignore even a loud bell because he is preoccupied with looking at something.
Also the teacher cannot hear him (he is very quiet when he speaks) so it makes no sense for him for e.g. to read in class as no-one can hear him.
Just wanted to make the point that it is not only children with sensory issues that struggle.
I would be pushing for more 'pullouts' to a quiet area. Not necessarily breaks but just using the 1:1 time outside the classroom in a quieter space.

They should be able to fairly easily check whether can for e.g. follow instructions in 1:1, small group, large group by giving similar instructions in different settings and seeing what happens. It might then become obvious that can manage in small groups but not big ones.

As the children get older and the work becomes more structured the noise level should reduce.

One thing we have noticed is that DS will approach and respond to peers much more when he is outside than when he is inside. Which means that it must be the noise level / acoustics of the classroom which he is struggling with - he functions better outside.

But its not noise generally with DS as we can go to a noisy swimming pool without a problem - so def not sensory. Its the combination of having to concentrate or process information + the noise that he can't do

To be honest I don't think thats unusual - I hate working in open plan offices for the same reason!

They have said how much better she is in a quiet, small group. She fidgets less and follows instructions. I was told by an ed psych she would need a quiet environment as she can't unpick noise and focus on what she should be, her class is manic, it is a huge foundation stage unit with two large year groups. I thought it was a good choice as she plays with the younger children and loves outdoor play but I think it is the worst setting in retrospect as it is so busy and noisy. The teachers also said as much as they had thought year one will be a challenge that dd is actually far better with structure and routine so hopefully it will help. I tghink DD's sensory issues are mild or at least expressed though poor behaviour, or it could be she lacks the language to tell me how much it affects her-she does drop to the floor in bright noisy shops though, it could be about confusion too.

I agree I am the same, and her classroom makes me feel stressed when all the parents are there too and everyone is noisy and close together!

Ok I am so much calmer today. I spoke to her teacher and repeated what she had said about school being too noisy and she said that fits with what they suspected-that DD lashes out at busy or chaotic times. Also she said when DD had time out after hurting someone yesterday she looked pleased so they will try and come up with something that means DD can have quiet time when she needs it before her behaviour gets affected. We agreed that DD's speech isn't clear enough for her to tell them verbally so the teacher said she will discuss with the other staff and see what they come up with, she said perhaps a quiet space and cushion or similar that DD can get/go to which will mean she doesn't have to ask. I also asked had the OT ever got back to them about the gym ball and she said no so I said I will call or email her today to find out more or failing that I will just buy one for them.

Phew. So hopefully they will start doing some of the OT stuff and DD will be able to get her quiet time-I also said when she gets the 30 hours support maybe the TA will take her out for her OT stuff more and this may help with keeping her calm at other times. As for me, I need to step up again with the OT stuff at home.

As I left DD was sitting alone doing her name writing and doing a pretty good job. I felt she looked stressed but am on hyper alert for her atm so trying not to worry about it.

So we'll see.

That all sounds positive, sounds like the school are on the ball. Dd2 gets 30hrs 1:1 and has OT in her statement (20 minutes a day) so her TA takes her out of class to do OT. To begin with dd2 was spending more time doing OT than being in class as she found it too noisy and stressful, she now just has the 20 minutes a day and can cope a lot better in class.

That sounds great, hope we get the 30 hours too should hear soon. Apparently DD was a bit better with them trying as far as they could to give quiet time today but she still pushed a couple of times.

I can't see DD being ok long term in mainstream without major improvements, not least because its obvious she finds it so stressful but am lucky she has a nice school with teachers willing to try and help.

That sounds like an improvement.
Can't they structure her time so she does some learning in a quieter room given she has her own TA? So short bursts in and out of the classroom alternated throughout the day.
Probably they should go overboard on the quiet space until the outbursts have gone and then gradually build the time back up - that way they can figure out what the right amount of time in the classroom is as they will see when things deteriorate
Although to be fair she will have good and bad days.

That sounds a good idea. I wish they had more outside input tbh- the ed psch just popped in for half an hour to observe and write a report for asking for more hours. She has fifteen hours one to one and a lot of that is one to one SALT work and some small group stuff which they leave the room for so she gets lots of structure but it is in the mornings with the afternoons a bit more free-it is only ever the free bits she lashes out at so she definately needs more input then.

I took her to the doctor after school about her wetting and she behaved really bizarrely, shreaking and spinning on the floor and making odd sounds whilst jumping about-she always goes loopy there too, maybe because she didn't fully understand the situation. Awful because I saw the look of embarrassment on a little girls face when DD tried to talk to her-the girl didn't understand what dd was saying and dd's bizarre behaviour meant she was uncomforable. It made me realise just how obviously different she is and she may seem scary to a lot of children (well especially with the hitting!!)

I thought I'd post on here as I've started a few threads recently. I've just had DD crying about school tomorrow saying "no school I really poorly, me sick" etc etc and "don't like school" . Last monday she really didn't want to go and then she had a bad day, hitting a couple of children but things seemed to improve through the week.

Her language isn't really enough to tell me why she doesn't want to go but I think she said lunchtime scary and something about a boy she doesn't like-she's never said she doesn't like him before and I then couldnt work out what she said whether it was he hits her or she hits him!

Any ideas? Visiting a special school on wed but it isn't an immediate solution and we have moved here to go tot he school she is at so ideally I want to try a bit longer. I've told her I will ask the teachers to look after her at lunch time but this is very unlike her-I think she also said she has no friends (very unclear speech), worrying before the event is a new thing and I don't want her worried and stressed she has enough to deal with, what can I do?

Just keep pressing for the extra hours.
It can be different but only with the right support
DS is 5.5 and he has ABA programme so he only goes to school halftime and does 1:1 out of school the rest of the time.
He has ABA support in school and they are well trained in teaching social skills, running small groups etc and have done masses of work this year building social interest by DS in peers. The 1:1 staff are so fun they are like a magnet for other children and so DS is rarely on his own. They also pre teach DS the games the other children play and practise them in 1:1 and a small group until he can play that independently with the other children.
The children pick up skills from 1:1 and some of them are almost like mini therapists and hold his hand and drag him along
Not all the children are interested of course, but enough of them are.
But it shows that children can be properly included at 5 with the right support across the school day and when social skills are properly planned out.
Before DS had ABA he had untrained 1:1 and that was hopeless he was always on his own, pushing children away etc. It has taken months of painstaking work to get to this point.
Inclusion won't just happen. Social skills are not just going to rub off. The school need to put some proper resources into it.
He never gets the chance to hit now - he used to in nursery - but with full-time trained 1:1 it just doesn't happen.
It can work in mainstream but only with a really good 1:1 and social skills programme.