Help - ABAers and anyone - meeting Monday at school

[appropriatelyemployed]

I cannot believe I am here again at a new school!

The head is very good but DS's relationship with his TA has deteriorated and so many things are happening now which make me really angry.

The head has organised a meeting with the TA, teacher, me and him for Monday but I am worried I will get too confrontational and angry. I feel perhaps the issues I am raising need to be heard by the head first and then addressed internally.

Can you see what you think? I posted in another threat about most of it, but, in summary:

1. I have found out that of the two tasks set by the ABA therapist, only one is being done by the TA. The other, which set up a regular break pattern for him was disregarded by her as 'too disruptive' to his learning.

1. I found out that DS's keyboard skill, working memory programme and OT were not being done so I have taken his laptop home - it is one provided by the physical impairment service and has specialist software on it. It has not been used by DS in school at all since it was set up two months ago. TA said she had not done working memory programme because it was a 'battle' to get him to do it.

1. Negative language about him is creeping in to the TA's discussions. On Friday, in front of the head, she described him as 'rude and aggressive' (something which he got very upset about) and she has said he was being 'contrary' or 'silly'. The head apologised for this. But she is a teacher. I don't accept loaded language is helpful. It says more about her than the behaviour. Should she not keep to neutral language and just describe what has happened not what she thinks about it?

1. After the ABA intervention, the ABA therapist pointed out practices which could be changed. Things like DS sitting on the carpet, or sitting up well for a bit. Now some of these things they have set up for him, it wasn't that he asked to sit at the back of the class and not on the carpet. She explained how they could change sitting with modelling behaviour and then allowing him to sit as he wants for a bit too. This has now deteriorated into 'sit up, you know not to sit like that' said very sharply in my presence. Also, practices are changed without explanation e.g. DS used to go in the side door back class after break rather than line up with everyone else. This week, he's been stopped from doing this and just told to line up. No explanation. I have no objection to the end objective but this seems poor practice to me - they set up this practice, why not just explain to him what you are trying to achieve? Where is the planning for change?

1. On Friday, I found he had been in a group doing maths outside the class with the TA. He had laughed at someone making a mistake. She reprimanded him and said 'how do you feel when people laugh at you?' He said 'if I make a joke, I like it when people laugh'. She then gave everyone a house point bar him and when he asked, she aid it was because of what he had said. He said she had never given house points in that group before and so felt she was doing it to be mean to him which seems true.

1. I have also noticed that she is reprimanding him in front of me - e.g. 'don't do that DS, that is rude'. [mm]

Head thinks home/school book will help but she would never have told me about point (5) would she? She is just going to use it to dump her frustrations.

So - questions:

1. ABA doesn't mean just changing practices without explanation or motivation does it? He feels like he is being punished for something he's been allowed to do

1. How do I handle this? I have a feeling a group meeting at this stage is not helpful. I am speaking to the ABA consultant on Monday and I have intimated to the head that I am not happy and he has partly agreed with some of the things I have said. I do not want to end up in a confrontation and piss off the head? Maybe it's easier for the head if I say this to her straight?

How much ASD awareness training has the TA had? Not ABA, just general awareness iykwim. I'm asking cos she just doesn't seem to "get it" for want of a better term. I think its a much more fundamental problem than just ABA techniques.

Ds has met the odd adult who gets him right off the bat (- like the old Somali lady who lives underneath me & left school at 12.) Others like his TA initially have really struggled to get inside the ASD mindset - very articulate types seem to find it hardest of all.

Our kids are wired differently and no amount of tutting can alter that, just as that blond child isn't going to suddenly morph into Alex Wek. Accepting that is easier said than done though.

Has the TA done the NAS earlybird plus course? It made a massive difference to mine as the penny slowly dropped as to WHY we were taking the approach we were (We call it behavioral modification for fear of upsetting the LEA but it's ABA lite in practice).

DSis so much happier now his TA "gets it" and can't hide it so everyone feels good iykwim. Adults need positive reinforcement too, we are just too cowardly to admit it.

A load of waffle above but I suppose I'm trying to say the TA isn't giving me any sense she understands ASD at all, much less her charges indiosyncancies within that spectrum (eg what motivates YOUR child, cos it'll be waaay different to mine iykwim).

The earlybird plus couse made all the difference to my TA - partly cos he got to hear a roomful of parents talking about similar issues, to hear a variety of "wierd" methods to teach these kids. Would a day trip to somewhere like the treetops school or a course at ambitous about austim make any different do you think?

You've said she's a trained teacher but she's trained to teach NT, a lot of ASD stuff, not just ABA but visual timetables etc look frankly totally bizarre to the unitiated! ASD is a different world and she's still on the outside looking in and feeling confused and frustrated that everything she's ever learnt about managing kids isn't working and she doesn't understand why.

Thanks bochead. This is a good point and one I have raised with the head very diplomatically.

I mentioned it by saying it could be very stressful for those without experience of ASD to understand why someone like DS is so rigid in his thinking etc.

He said she had a child in her class as a teacher with Asperger's but would check.

We did the Early Bird Plus course with a TA at the last school and it was very helpful for her. I can't manage another 13 weeks of that - I work!! I think it has been stopped locally for lack of funding anyway.

It is a difficult one as she has developed an attitude but she has very little understanding about ASD or alternative methods of doing things.

ambitious about autism don't seem to have any intro courses scheduled right now?

I do agree the earlybird stuff takes up a silly amount of time (& of course is of no benefit to you personally whatsoever).

There is this one day intro to autism course here:- www.autism.org.uk/our-services/training-and-consultancy/our-training-courses-for-practitioners/understanding-and-supporting-people-with-autism.aspx

It's the really basic triad of impairment stuff she needs knocking into her so that one might do it at a £100. (Detailed teaching methods etc come via your ABA consultant).

If that doesn't work cos she's too arrogant to admit she doesn't know, what she doesn't know then sadly she needs replacing - how the hell you do that I have NO idea.

Thanks Bochead - that is really helpful. I do think lack of understanding is a problem. People don't always understand the complexities of ASD. They think 'poor child' but then get offended if the child doesn't respond as you expect.

I don't see any evidence of any effort to motivate, reward or encourage.

No you would not just change a practice without explanation. You would have a plan how to change it and break it into steps and reward any attempt at improvement.

I agree the problem here is a lack of understanding / training. It is not going to help matters to say that about the TA in front of her peers (similar to what she is doing to your DS really!) so I guess going to have to think of a less judgemental way (not that she doesn't deserve it).

1. & 2. The reason she is not doing this is because she does not know how to get him to follow her instructions / comply and because she is not managing the session properly - if she was the breaks would be happening. To me its because she is not in control and does not know how to take control (so is resorting to negative comments). This can be fixed by training - modelling by someone else how to do it and her then being run through it with support. Giving her a plan to follow. You are using ABA but this issue would be the same if they were using an ASD Outreach model of learning, it would just be an autism outreach teacher telling her how to change her practice rather than an ABA one. Its about her taking advice and following it. If she is not prepared to listen to those who know more about autism than her, then she is the wrong TA. She is, lets face it, being 'too rigid and inflexible'! In terms of the HT I would say this is a problem he would face whoever was coming into school giving advice - it is not unique to ABA. Teaching a child with SN has to be a collaboration between all involved.

1. Should she not keep to neutral language and just describe what has happened not what she thinks about it? Yes - your DS should be getting immediate feedback and it should mostly be positive. She may need to be shown how to break the task down so he is getting positive feedback at each small stage rather than just at the end of a long task. Breaking it down would help her keep control.

1. The lining up I agree with what you say they should not try and change too much too soon. They should have a list of programmes they are working on - so it may be sitting and work through that until it is mastered then move on to lining up. Its not that because he has learnt a new way of doing x he will now be able to do y and can only not be doing y because he is being naughty / lazy. She needs to teach both individually and systematically. Maybe he does not generalise skills from x to y. You need to get agreement she will work on the things your consultant has identified - but nothing else. She can make a list of other things she wants to work on as they come up and your consultant can then decide when to include those in the programme and indeed to design a programme for those. Make it clear she can input into the ABA programme and you are aiming for a collaborative approach, but it has to be planned and systematic. She can't just throw new things in all the time. Its actually less daunting for her to start with a list of 2-3 things to work on than try and change everything. You are aiming for a targeted missile not a scattergun approach.

Having done ABA myself with DS I usually run myself down and say how hard I found x or y so that the staff then feel less useless when they can't immediately get DS to do it. There is no shame in not being able to take a new approach and do it immediately. You need to turn this from a 'you are not doing x', to a 'what are you finding difficult about implementing x - what more can we do to help'.

Its not easy our current teacher is useless - brain like a sieve nothing we tell her seems to stick - just counting down the weeks to year 1.

What about a PEACH intro to ABA course?

Thank you Agnes. I will print these suggestions off.

I do try and sympathise with her about how hard it is to get DS to do things sometimes and suggest things but she is very 'well I do all that and he still refused'. Of course, DS is always standing there saying 'no you didn't do that' .

This is why I am reluctant to leave this to a home/school book where TA gets the chance to rant and DS is left feeling aggrieved. I just don't think she is telling the truth.

I think you are right - limiting it to a specific number of changes is very important. It's not just about 'putting your foot down' but helping DS change.

This is particularly so when alot of the behaviours e.g. sitting at the back of the class and not on the carpet have come about because of her and not him!

Do you think I should ask to see the head alone initially after speaking to the consultant? Not as a chance to criticise but as a way of saying here are some suggestions at keeping this neutral and reducing the stress on everyone - have a think.

But I have this horrible feeling in my gut that the ABA intervention has 'outed' her real feelings about DS. She probably had some lovely warm 'hero' complex where she was going to save the little autistic boy and has found that she can't do this from strength of personality alone so it's his fault.

I get really upset as he is really a straightforward little guy. Very honest, compliant and you can always get him involved with his special interests. He can be very compassionate too and he tries so hard.

Ask the ABA Consultant to consider behavioural strategies for the TA rather than your Ds and start there.

Yes, she should do as she's told, but once she begins to see successes she will be motivated and reinforced and will be more willing to attemp new suggestions.

The first thing you need to find out is what HER motivators are and also a solution for HER to her biggest 'issue'. That involves 'pairing' with her (indulging her in the beginning) and overboard praise for the slightest of positive behaviour/actions that you want for her, withdrawing the rewards gradually so she has to work harder for the praise etc. this is where I see a home-school book being of value.

But you have to be as systematic and consistent with her as you need her to be for your Ds.

This might sound a slow and labourious strategy, and no doubt frustratingly unnecessary, but it will probably yield the fastest results.

Wot star said.

This is the approach to take on Monday as well.
TA + HT + mum (representing dc) is a trianglular meeting. Triangular meetings with high emotion tend to go badly as they can easily end up switching to the classic playground scenario of victim + bully + protector. And you lose whichever role you get saddled with.

Maria - this is what I am worried about. This meeting will end up being difficult and not constructive.

Star. The problem is I have tried. I have been nothing but supportive. I have commiserated with her and acknowledged how difficult things can be, I have bought her chocs.

But her attitude has changed and I can trace it back to the ABA therapist coming in. She seems to have grown in confidence as a result and taken the ABA therapist's intervention as permission to 'put her foot down'. Her attitude to DS is hardening and dismissive.

Now, when I talk to her, she just repeats her position, straight faced, no warmth or interest. Even this week, when I was saying DS had had a topsy turvy few days as he'd not been getting up at 5 for me to go to London, she just stood there and said 'he's been fine' - this was on a day he'd walked out of class and refused to do PE.

I'm just getting madder and madder now and I don't know how to progress this.

I am so mad that DS was physically barred from going back to class the way he has always gone back to class because someone has decided he needs to line up now. Don't bother speaking to me or him. He does as he is told but he was so confused and you wouldn't do this with another child. This is not ABA.

But I am really mad about her negative jibes and her punishing him by singling him out. What he said was his typical Aspie response, not understanding her point.

How am I supposed to deal with this without getting angry? I am so tired of all this. I thought this shit was over with this new school. Why is she being like this??

How do I take him in Monday, and leave him with her? I need to sort out what has been happening with lining up and making him sit on the carpet but she will just make some crap up.

Seriously, what do I do? Do I speak to the head first thing? I feel I am dumping on him. But I really have lost my faith in this woman completely.

I am sorry if I sound like I am ranting but this woman has been taking it out on my son and lying. I will be enabling this unless I challenge it.

Sorry just bumping this as I wondered if it was worth emailing head before tomorrow and setting out very openly the concerns I have raised here.

It doesn't feel right to unload them in a meeting with the TA there.

How best to raise these issues and suggest training??

Thanks. I mentioned the ABA consultant going in again (or one of her students) to the head and he didn't jump at the chance but suggested this meeting instead.

I suppose part of the problem is that this came about after the last ABA visit when the consultant was very proactive about all the areas that could be changed. But I think that may have been interpreted as - he's naughty, put your foot down.

The head is waiting to go on paternity leave -which is an added difficulty as he's keen to get it sorted.

I agree though Pippin, and my experience is that things go very quickly wrong when it is mum v TA or when it appears that way.

I'm also concerned about things that need sorting as a matter of urgency really like explaining to DS when they have changed systems.

I think there is someone missing from all of this though.

Where does the class teacher stand. Is he/she the real day to day line manager of the TA? What is her take on it all?

Couls the Consultant provide a simple tick box paper for the TA which includes a couple of examples of language to use that coukd form the basis of the home-school book?

The TA's adherence to the tick-box book and general language use to be the class teacher's responsibility!?

Interesting point Star, I don't have much to do with the teacher. She is very nice but very young - a NQT and my conversations have either been with the head or TA.

I think, again, this is probably one of the problems with having a teacher as a TA. She is more experienced than the class teacher which is why I think she has been cut such slack.

DS has been saying today that his TA tells him to 'shut up' or 'be quiet' when they are working together outside or that she says it in a low voice to him in the class.

This is such a tricky thing to deal with.

Oh dear my DS has NO understanding of social hierarchy so if his TA took to telling him to "shut up" you can guarantee he'd use the phrase on the HT!

I don't see this as an ABA issue at all, (TEACCH is the primary methodology being used to help my child right now).

My teen neighbours have learnt to modify their speech around DS due to this embarrassing trait of his, so I cannot for the life of me understand why a qualified teacher would not be asked to do the same.

If your child has the same social hierarchy issue as mine (& I think it's a fairly standard ASD trait tbh) then you have to ask for the issue of appropriate language by adults in school to be tackled. If she cannot role model appropriate language and behavior she's no use to anyone.

"Quiet please" isn't too bad - "shut up" is just wrong on sooooo many levels.

The unhelpfulness of triangular meetings problem often responds to being determinedly and obsessively sensible, mature, detached and super-adult. Like someone chairing a highly charged but otherwise boring European Commission debate. You ideally stop feeling like your dc's advocate, and temporarily become his bureaucrat.

Also useful is getting another person there, doesn't actually matter who, as they just change the pattern a bit. Just like is the playground, a neutral observer can evaporate trouble before it starts. They can either be physicthere present or there in spirit. "I'll get back to you after I've talked to ds's dad", "shall we see what Camhs say", "I'm jotting down a few notes for his BA so they can adjust the programme a little".

So is there some politics going on that you are unaware of?

I mean. Where did this TA come from? Why did she leave teaching? Was she a teacher at this school? Why put her in a class with an NQT as her 'supervisor'? (Seems like an odd management decision to me) Did all the other teachers refuse her? Was the role with NQT sold to the TA on the basis that the NQT would 'benefit' from her experience and professionalism? Did the HT agree to the behavioural consultant coming in because he himself was having a hard time 'managing' her and thought an outside person could put her in line?

It really should be the class teacher creating the lesson plans for each child and differentiating, and taking the lead on the strategies, and the TA should be supporting the class teacher in her strategies.

You can raise my last paragraph but I doubt there is much information you can get regarding the above, except to question whether there is a political context to the TA's behaviour that might need to be considered when moving forward.

They advertised for DS's TA and the teacher came from another school.

She was teaching but said she wanted to spend more time with her own children and decided to take a break while considering options- she had considered retraining as an EP.

Obviously DS only started in Jan so his class and class teacher were already in existence.

I think there are probably management issues and I think the teacher does need to be involved and she is supposed to be attending any meeting tomorrow.

Do you think I should email the head and raise the issues about changing practices without notice and suggest he look at those too before we meet? It needs raising and I don't want to have a head to head with the TA about it if the head or teacher would agree with me as it is a waste of everyone's energy.

I feel a bit sorry for the dreadful TA. She's a trained teacher, working well below her grade, supervised by and reporting to an inexperienced colleague who she really 'ought' to be mentoring or training, she's expected to deliver an unfamiliar and very detailed intervention accurately, it's not working, the child's doing badly, the mum's not pleased, BA tried to help but hes nit a teacher so can she trust him, and the HT may not be impressed. No wonder she is cross, anxious & frustrated and her performance has dipped.

Her ABA theoretical knowledge base will be low enough that she won't be able to adapt or modify the programme successfully herself. Neither will she understand exactly why it's essential to follow the BA's instructions to the letter and especially when something conflicts with all her previous general teaching. Finally she will be baffled as to why her pre-existing asd specific skills arent proving much use.

All of that is probably true Maria but the thing is that she decided to become a TA, which is a DIFFERENT role from a teacher.

The problem with the arrangement is becoming quite clear - just not the solution.

Will this issue take until the end of the year and beyond to resolve? Will all this energy destroy the relationship with the HT? Will any improvements be too slow to have any benefit?

Basically, - what happens NEXT year and how can you plan for it now to get the most out of whatever arrangements will be in place.

Perhaps you can talk about that, - about the future, - about tranisition. Hopefully the TA will make it clear that her hopes are to part from your DS, and 'perhaps' for transitional purposes the person who comes next can get in some training and experience before the end of the year to help with a smooth class change.

Maria - I am sympathetic and I have been very supportive, but the problem I face is a TA who does not want to know and is very defensive. If you are really out of your depth, you would ask, make a fuss, want to know more.

It is not that she can't follow the programme, she has chosen not to follow it as she knows best. No discussion.

Star, next year DS has the deputy head as a teacher which may make things easier as he is very switched on.

Do you think I should email the head about the way they introduce changes as these things are happening daily without notice to DS?

I don't want to make things worse by pestering the head but I can't see it being of any use to mention this to the TA as she is clearly doing it so will just defend herself - hence another debate.

A format for challenging yet helpful feedback about interpersonal skills:

Descriptive language about observed behaviour (what, how, when, where) and the observed effects, then asking the learner to tell you about what only they observed ie the lead-up, their aim, thoughts, decisions or internal processes, their evaluation of the outcome. All done with the assumption that (whatever appearances suggest) they were probably either correct, already aware of an error, or wrong in a sensible, understandable and fixable way.

You should have, why did you, it's not working etc (even if unspoken and only inside your own head) are actually more likely to backfire when they are genuinely justified.