SA refused. Gutted.

[Oblomov]

Got LEA letter today. As expected they are refusing to assess ds1(8). I know I expected this, but I am still gutted.
They said that ?All professionals involved with ds confirm that provision is adequate?.
Not sure how to argue against that, really.
What do you advise?
Have got my IPSEA download ready on how to appeal, to SEND. Woman from LEA helpfully forgot to include the pack on how to appeal.
But he trouble, is, I'm just not sure if I have any grounds.
The EP did agree with school, that his needs were being met. I told her in the meeting that I did not agree. And when I got her final report, I wrote again , to say that I did not agree.
But to be fair, I'm going round in circles. Ds is saying he wants to die. Yet school says he's fine. And I can't even get a single person to agree with me, that his needs are not beign met.
So realistically, is it worth writing to SEND, when I can't even find the words to build a case, myself.

Do you think this is just a shock reaction to the letter, and I need to calm down
Wouldn't have been the first time I had got all 'het up'

Can you appeal to jump the waiting list queue and move schools on the basis of exceptional social emotional medical needs ("since LEA say my suicidal child's school anxiety isn't a special educational need... so it must be another sort of need... and [insert name of school] would meet it much better than any other [because of characteristics x y and z]")

I went to a 'resolution meeting' with the LEA lady after the refusal to make SA... they didn't give in, but I got their (borderline illegal) criteria in writing, a referral for ds to SLT, and some minutes to prove they said that school anxiety is a home problem, maybe you need social services, we only deal with needs demonstrated in school, in term-time, between 9am-3.30pm. All in the file . And then some genuine listening from the school started, as the burden of needing to say "no, he's fine, really he is" had been taken on by the LEA.

"the problem with ds is that he has lots of minor needs. Needs help with anxiety, social skills, lonely, no friends, wants to die, writing a bit crap, but can be o.k."

While ds may not have an overwhelming need in one area, he has a combination of needs in several areas could be seen as complex needs for purposes of statementing.

The one referral I would push primarily is back to camhs to look at why ds is expressing such extreme anxiety and what factors - at school particularly - are feeding into this. (you may be able to self-refer as he is known to camhs although case closed, but if not ask gp or paed. to refer)

Also ask again at GPs to have ds be seen by an OT, explain how school refused to act on advice first time round. You may well have a long wait to be seen (we had to wait almost a year for ds' appointment to come through). But you may find that an assessment throws up more than you expect. There can also be quite a lot of overlap with sensory difficulties and anxiety.

Taking the focus away from SA for the moment, can you try to initiate help from camhs and OT? If the school accept their advice, ds will automatically be on sa + (which simply means outside agencies are involved) and if they persist in refusing to accept advice from independent professional bodies, I imagine there should be some recourse via LA or school's governing body but others here hopefully will know more about that.

camhs can visit the school to do an assessment of their own. They can put recommendations in a report to the school and they can refer to an OT.

I would try and rest from the SA side of things and build up your own little nest of paperwork as best you can. Every little issue in school confirmed in an email for future use too as a way of a record.

Oblomov, I'm going to sit on the fence, because a knee-jerk 'they're so wrong' is something nice to say, but not necessarily something 'helpful' to say (and besides, everyone else has done the nice bit ).

My thoughts are:

-A 'Statement' is short-hand for 'Statement of Special Educational Needs. Remember that. So, there is a clear definition. Social, emotional and anxiety based needs can be educational needs, but that definition is not automatic.

Even within a Statement document, there are Part 2/3 needs/provisions and Part 5/6 'non educational needs'. Remember that, because if you can't substantiate your DS's key needs being 'educational', they could very well end up in the 'non educational needs' section of a Statement document anyway, which is unenforceable.

So, in short, think about what makes your DS's needs educational. It isn't enough that his anxieties affect him during the school day, or that he gets anxious about school, etc. They have to be hampering his educational progress.

• Forget a Statement for just a second. It's only a document which outlines the needs and the provisions which will meet those needs. Of course, it's very useful, because it is legally binding, but let's forget that for just a minute.

If your DS had a Statement - what would you expect to be in Part 2 (Educational Needs) and what would you expect to be in Part 3?

The reason I ask, is that with the best will in the world, a LA only has to make provision which is 'adequate'. Equally, a school is free to provide any support which it can manage from its own resources, and a Statement should only be issued if the LA consider that the provision needed exceeds the reasonable resources of the school.

So, what are your DS/s needs, and what do you think would help them? If, in your heart of hearts, you think that your DS could be helped by simple adjustments and a small amount of extra guidance, say, then I would say your fight is not with the LA for a Statement, but with the school for effective provision under SA or SA+.

If, however, you think that your DS's needs require resources that the school could not provide on their own, then you know you need to fight for the statement.

Remember though, that if you do accept that you've been knocked back now, you can spend 6 months gathering a paper trail to prove your point, and then resubmit. You can still do this even while persuing appeal.

-Finally, this school. Do you think that if they had a Statement, they would follow it, or do they think they've made up their minds about your DS?

I'm not being mean (honest!) but it's soo easy to say 'yeah go for it', when the reality is that 2% of children nationally have Statements. None of us know whether your DS is a child who needs a Statement - you know him best. But, with some probing (possibly uncomfortable) questions, it will help to sharpen your mind and clear through the fog.

At the end of the day, I'm convinced your DS needs something. Wanting to kill himself is not normal. But, whether a Statement will do what you want it to - well it only will if his needs are well articulated and the provisions are tailored to him.

Lougle - good post.

I think the point to add as well is, as I said before, a statement is only as good as the school implementing it.

Yes, it is enforceable legally but that can mean another set of battles, another struggle with different agencies to force the support to be put in place IF you don't have the school behind you.

I truly believe that having a school to support you makes the difference. A good, honest school, which understands SEN will work with you, statement or not.

Thans for the posts. I know what you all say is true. I now that even if you got a statement, it is only one rung higher on the ladder. I know thta even then the fight never stops. I know a good school is key.
I will think about everything you have said and will try and decide what to do next.

Ob, whilst you're a bit angry and motivated with all the arguments clear in your head, you might wanna fill in an appeal document anyway. To store your thoughts, story and evidence for th future!?

Yes, absolutely!

And, I'm sorry that I've given pause for thought. I must stress that I have no particular knowledge of your DS (other than your postings) and no particular opinion as to whether he should get a Statutory Assessment.

I have just come to realise that on the SN board, the reality is a little skewed.

The proportion of regular posters on MN SN whose children have Statements is relatively high. Certainly more than 2%. Think about it. Off the top of my head, I can think of Lougle (me), Starlight, Peachy, JustHecate, Justabout (although in NZ now), Lottie, Lisad, DevientEnigma, WetAugust, madwomanintheattic....the list goes on, and I'm not even really trying.

Now, that little list alone is 10 posters. If this board were representative of the general population, there would have to be another 490 regular posters who did not have children with Statements.

But, we know that a board like SN:Children will be relatively self-selecting. Regular posters will be either parents of children with confirmed SN, parents of children with SN concerns, or people whose work involves contact with children who have SN.

Taking the last group out of it, we'll look at just those with children who have some SN concerns or confirmed SN. Nationally (rightly or wrongly - that debate is for a different time) we know that roughly 20% of children are on the SEN register at any one time. So, we know that 10% of children with SN of some kind actually need a statement. We can't go further than that, because we all know that it's a bit pot-luck whether a child will be on SA or SA+ for any given set of needs. Local variation will also come into play. In a school in a very deprived area, for example, it may be a relative norm to have a low start point, so the children will not be seen as having SEN, but rather just fit the profile of the school. In another area, a child with the same start point will be markedly below the 'norm' so would be on SA, etc.

My point is, that if we have statistics which indicate 10% of children with SN need Statements, then telling every poster to apply for SA is perhaps a little unrealistic. Also, it can be very easy to tie yourself up in paperwork because the (unintentional) suggestion can be that if you want the best for your child, you'll try everything you can. But, that doesn't mean that the same course of action will fit every situation.

All I was trying to say was 'think carefully - do you need to jump through circus hoops to get what you need?'.

Yes, of course, a Statement has legal force. But, if you need a legal document to secure a bit of sensitivity and an emotions card, or an early pass, I'd suggest that says more about the school than your child, if you understand me?

Statements are excusively for children whose needs require provisions which cannot reasonably be met by a school's delegated resources alone, and require the resources of the LA to do so.

If a child needs those provisions, I'd fight tooth and nail to get them (and I did - I told the LA woman that she wasn't doing enough to secure DD1's future at school, so if it was all the same to her, I'd crack on with a Statement application myself.)

Whatever the outcome, the process will cost you. Emotionally, physically, mentally. But I do think it's a crying shame that some posters get the impression that only a Statement will do, when they could get the same result by finding a school that gives a damn instead.

I remember thinking that a particular (MS) school might cope with DD1. When the HM said 'well Mrs Lougle, you have to try and get the very best Statement you can, because without that I just won't be able to provide the support your DD needs.....' I realised that this school was wholly unsuitable. He was more interested in his budget than DD1, and he'd made that clear by booking another family in to view the school at the same time (despite a very clear telephone conversation outlining DD1's profile), keeping DD1 waiting in a small lobby for 20 minutes (attention span of a gnat, DD1), ignoring her needs during the tour of the school, a cursory wave at the 'SEN section' and banging on about the appearance of the school.

In contrast, a school I hadn't considered 'ideal' (which ironically, DD2 now attends and is thriving at), showed their intentions from the first moment. Waiting for DD1 at the entrance, getting to her level and saying hello to her first, changing the route of the tour because DD1 had been drawn to a particular item in a corner, inviting her to play in a classroom (with support) while we finished our tour, because she had recognised an old pre-school friend.

That school even invited us to meet with the SENCO to talk through DD1's needs - she didn't yet have a Statement. At that meeting, the deputy head heard DD1 screaming in the SENCO's office (an altercation with an umbrella ) from her classroom, left the classroom to come to the office and ased us if DD1 could go and join her class for snack and milk, so that we could continue talking. Just pure, gentle, respectful treatment from the off.

In the end, it became clear that DD1 was a special school kinda girl, but I will never forget the visit that put DD1 first, despite the fact that she wasn't even their charge. It made me certain that DD2 would go there, and if DD1 is off on an INSET day, the Deputy (who is DD2's teacher) always, despite the busy end of day routine, makes a point of speaking to DD1 (always using her name, without prompt).

I've banged on a bit. But I guess I'm just saying - focus on what your DS needs. If that is a Statement - go fight! If it is a more understanding school, find one!

Just wondering if a CAF would help? (Know their effectiveness varies from borough to borough.) At least that way an OT would be obliged to visit your ds.

Wise words from Lougle - perhaps some of us are too quick to say oh yes of course your dc should have a statement, that's the only way to ensure they will get the support they need, whereas it isn't necessarily the case.

Having said that, many of the parents on the sn board, whose children do have statements, have experienced being fobbed off and having their concerns rubbished on route to finally winning that statement on their child's behalf. In retrospect I wish I had trusted my instincts and pushed for SA sooner than we did rather than accept school's naysaying, so tend to want to encourage posters in oblomov's position to question whether the school/LA's rejection of their arguments is reasonable.

Indeed pink. In fact, I have to say that seeing DD2 in infant school, makes me shudder in horror, when I think that I thought DD1 would cope with 1:1 there.

It is horrifying, seeing the massive leaps and bounds DD2 is taking, the expectations on the children there. DD1's (special school) Head Teacher said to me (when we went to view) "The LA have already sent me DD1's papers to review. I've sent back 'appropriately placed'. Having met her, I can see how people might have thought MS, initially, but I'm sure she would drown."

Yes pink. We have no idea whether the OPs Ds needs a statement or not but we DO know that being refused a SA does not automatically mean he doesn't.

However, there are other paths to provision, and a statement means nothing in the worst school.

whilst I do broadly agree with lougle, and certainly can see where she is coming from, I would just add:

to say that 10% of children with SN need statements is, I believe incorrect. 10% may be the figure that get statements, but getting is not the same as needing.

Oblomov, I am sorry you are in this position. I know you are trying hard to move schools, and that this is sometimes (mostly!) easier said than done.

I would also agree with Star - make sure you get your thoughts in order, and documented. it can be easy to overlook this.

The school have asked dh to attend the IEP Meeting today. I assume they think he will calm me down. Dh has begged me to 'just stop'. On the 'fruitless crusade'. I have agreed.

I have been on the EarlyBird+ course for the last few weeks. It is nice, but pointless and I have learnt nothing. I moved heaven and earth to get childcare for ds2, whilst I went. Why bother.
Got appoinment with CAMHS, for Jun. They said they thought there was "little that they coudl do".
Spoke to Paed. She said she thought that there was "little that she could do".
Finally got OT to agree to asses. She said it wasn't her area, more CAMHS becuase his handwriting was more mental health, his problems.

I requested an updated IEP from school. They paint a lovely, jolly picture. I refused to sign the IEP, saying it wasn't SMART. They told me EP had agreed it was. I said he had failed. Because he hasn't told anyone when things have been bothering him. And then it snowballed into him sobbing and wanting to die. They said he had told them about once when he didn't want to do some writing. Oh so, that's o.k. then. Everyhting is fine. Apparently.

I have fought. For the last 3 years. And got nowhere. I beleive he isn't exteme or serious enough for anyone to take any notice. School are totally unsupportive. Now my SA has been declined, school can now stand behind the fact that the LEA have told them thta they are supporting hm well.

Dh thinks that this is why they have asked him to come tonight. So that they can tell us both togtehrer, that they are washing their hands of us.

I have fought everyone over the last 3 years. The school. The school told the Paed there was no ASD. I finally got a diagnosis. The EP said he was fine.
In the meantime i have fought a GP, who said i was a bad mother and reported me to SS, The DVLA when I lost my licence when my diabetes went mad. Lost my job of 6 years that I loved - they told me I wasn't good enough. I fought the LEA. A few weeks ago, on comleting the SA parental bit, I had a diabetic hypo, fell over and broke my nose. The kids were screaming "Daddy, daddy, mummy's not very well", as i was fitting , on the floor like an epileptic fit.
This is no way to carry On.

And the school. And all in all got nowhere.
And I just can't fight anymore.
So I have agreed to let this go.

I don't want to go to the meeting today. I don't want to go to anymore IEP meetings. His 'emotional literacy' classess are obviously pointless anyway. So why go and discuss them AGAIN. Why beg for them to try and eradicate the labellign of him as "the naughty Boy", that all his peers have of him. Why keep telling them that he wants to die. They know. why bother begging for predictive skills or handwriting practice - both need a bit of extra help, but aren't that bad. Its all pointless. I have begged repeatedly and got nowehre. So why keep begging.

Other schools say they can't take him. And even if they could. I just be fuc*ing bothered. For the hassle, the disruption, of driving 20 miles to get him somewhere. Must be the selfishness in Me.
I just can't do it.
My GP and I agreed AD's wouldn't help me. I tried them , when he was being diagnosed, even though she said I wasn't depressed. They don't work for me. I feel quite happy anyway. Its only this that drags me down.

My counselling/CBT, I am still waiting. 2 years for. I have made repeated complaints and they have repeatedly apologised, for the delay, due to them having taken over the service. Somewhere else I'm complaining. And getting nowhere.

I would fight and fight. It I thought it was worthwhile. But dh says sometimes, you just have to cut your loses. And I am forced to have to agree with him.

Sorry for wallowing. I wanted to just, get it all out, to be honest.

oh oblomov :(

Let me get my head together a sec and a coffee and I will think of something.

I can understand your DH as I doubt he likes to see you so upset and the pressure of it all. My DH was the same at first and kept saying you got to think of your health. They mean well because they love you, but I dont think they really understand that a Mums health and stress wont get better because the instinct to protect and fight for your cub goes deeper :)

Be back in a sec as sorting out ds and waking up x

Oh oblomov, I am so sorry.

I wish I had something constructive to say, but you've fought so long and hard that you've already tried everything I would suggest and there are others who will be along soon to offer much better advice than I could.

I can offer you a huge hug and let you know that I am thinking of you and your ds and sending you lots of strength, love and light. This shouldn't be happening, it's just plain wrong - and that's the mildest word I could think of to describe it. They system sucks.

I really hope you can find a way through this and that your ds gets the support he needs soon. ((hug))

OK re camhs keep bugging them between now and June everytime your ds is low and comments he wants to die etc. keep requesting emergency appointment. Two options I see are the main issue is social and emotional. Keep camhs file open with them. Tell them you feel your child is getting depressed which is a mental state (they cant use the neurological asd excuse to fob you off somewhere else) and you feel it is separate to his asd although worried as because he has asd his state of mind is going to get worse iyswim.

Other options will be to call their bluff and the crap docs and lay yourself open that if they feel it is you then you need to be seen as a family as a whole. It will still keep you in tow with camhs. Say you want to do more than just the early bird course and what else can they suggest.

Keep 2 diaries running side by side on his feelings each day one for the bad and one for the good. Put down how he is feeling, what has gone on in day and what he has done that day.

Meantime:
Keeping two separate you have the negative times to show camhs, proffs. Should they comment that it was forced convo etc or any other crap (I actually did this) you can then produce the second one showing the good times.

It can produce patterns for you to analyze as in what triggers his emotions. You will see for yourself if there are more bad than good or vice versa. It helped me because sometimes you only remember the bad as they are the ones that hurt the most :) and obviously which your ds saying such heartbraking things they are going to stick.

Put things in such as family visits, neighbours, dentist etc (outsider point of views show that its just not all you observing this and not just you DS is talking too) If they will write it in for you all well and good as it will again confirm it is their oppinion.

Video any meltdowns in times of stress secretly on a mobile even. Get a recorder/dictaphone style that you can press that your son would be unaware of.

Get an independent EP if you can to support you with their findings. You could try and sway your dh support in saying this is the final thing I must do before I sit back and leave it. That you need an experienced neutral EP to spell it out to you. If an independent finds that the school is doing everything ok then you will leave it. :)

I know its hard but treat it like you are starting afresh. Dont give up you know your son best.

Thank you for your kind posts: justabout, coffee and moose. Must go and get ds2. Back in a bit.

Another note (thinking through this all slowly lol)

OT wise: Speak to him/her again. Tell them that camhs are saying they dont know what they can suggest. Tell OT can she at least help DS by writing a small report stating that after assessment he/she is concerned that DS writing issues are caused by lack of self esteem and possible emotional issues that should be looked into due to the concern of a more embedded mental health issue. And get her to copy camhs into it.

Play them between themselves at their own game. :)

I have thought about playing them off against one another.
But even then, coffee, I am still fighting. aren't I?
I think its the pointless, fighting, that I've had enough of. If you got somewhere, anywhere, even on the next rung up, you would continue.
But the toll, is so hard. on ME.

(((hugs))) Oblomov

I haven't started SA yet but am expecting a similar experience to you. I can't cope with that at the moment healthwise I wonder whether you need to take a few months break to get you well and then make a fresh application?

If you're ill then the whole house of cards will come down. Think of it as the lifevest first for yourself on a plane before putting it on children. That's my take on it....but could be wrong. As I say, I haven't been there yet.

Yes it is hard on you and its so bloody unfair. Wish I was closer to give you real support and do some shouting for you.

I can totally understand how you feel I have had the same convo with my dh this morning. He is the disheartend one now. the dx has just hit home with him now I am on top of things and the school incident re exclusion has tipped the edge for him. Our business is suffering and our home life in pieces and he said he suddenly feels old and sees no light at the end of the tunnel.

I have only put these suggestions down to give you another angle to come from and only if you wanted to not in anyway have I posted to make you think you should :)

You have already done so much and you are a great mum.

I just hate the fact that the system lets people down. Have a long distance hug from me xx

The thing is Ben10, I'm not expecting my 'illness' to go away, or to get better. They don't know what to do with me, diabetically. I test and test and test. But I am just a mystery to them, becasue I am so illogical.
They suggested a pancreatic transplant. Can you imagine. Serious operation. I would need to travel 2 hours into london , reguarly, for months of pre op. The operation is so serious you could be out of action for 6 months, with steroids for the rest of your life. And who would care for our 8 yr old and 3 yr old, whilst all this was going on?
They beleive that stress is a killer to diabetes. could explain why I've been so poorly for the last 4 years.
But even if I let the school thing go, the school problem is still there. It would torment me and anger me more. school getting away with murder.
And there is still his awful behaviour at home. thats not going to go away, is it?
And me. My love for him dwindled, the more I couldn't cope with him. I know I need counselling. I am ashamed at how I feel about him. I want my love for him to come back.
Thats not an easily resolved difficulty.
Most of all, my attitude, and how I re-act TO Him, needs to change. I know this. I just don't know how to do it.
he makes me so angry. I shout at him alot. He drives me wild.
Its so intertwined, isn't it. Accepting him, but trying to deal with him. Changing myself. Trying to get support. I have been begging for support for 4 years and got basically none. Not that there is much available, money wise or support wise for AS children, or the families, is there?
I know I should cope better. I just can't seem to be able to.