LEA refused assessment.more advice needed please

[Madprest]

In the letter they require further information from school as well as a detailed assessment report from Ed Psych. Do they not ask school for info before making decision? And that the report from ed psych needed..this is what we want to find out if she as a learning disability. A meeting is suggested with us, school staff and an SEN and Disability Officer (even though they don't say who and when this is). As anybody been offered this and what it entails.
Could somebody tell me what the education take notice of regarding grades, is it teacher assesssments or test levels? I find that teacher assessment grades are much higher than her test level grades.

I was very surprised when I received her school records that there wasn't much info in them. Only got IEP's, School Reports, Attendance and one test that was done for SENCO in YR 2 (she is in YR 5 now). This was not sent to Education as they sent me all copies what school sent them. Nothing sent from SENCO whatsoever. School make me feel I am over reacting.
Thanks in advance for any help and advice.
(Apologies if this is all mumble...too much going on in my head)

Too much emphasis on grades alone in this thread for my liking.

Also don't think it's helpful to state that the OP will not get a SA.

It's about more than just grades. What exactly are the barriers to learning. Why is Madprest's DD just not keeping up with the rest of the class / expectations? Are there underlying causes which are being overlooked while the focus remains firmly on grades?

thanks so much wetaugust....you get what i am saying, started to feel how school make me feel that it's in my head. I know there is something under lying I have 4 kids and I just know.

don't mean to come across ungrateful, I have relied on mumsnet because I have no idea. This is my first experience with sn and it can be very overwhelming so I do appreciate people taking time to reply.

The thing is, you will need better IEPs to use as evidence.

With the things I have mentioned can you have a go here at writing what you would like to see in the IEP.

Focus on SMART.

That is the target has to be Specific (what EXACTLY), Measurable (How much? how often? how many? what percentage? How are you going to know if she has improved even if not completely met target?), Achievable (Is it broken down into small enough pieces. Is it based on an assessment of where she is already?), Realistic (no point in it involving helicopters or putting the onus on a busy mum), Time-based (over what period?, how many times should the target be attempted? When should it be reviewed?)

Go on. Have a go. It will keep you focussed and give you an absolutely invaluable skill for handling meetings, waffle, draft reports and holding people to account if you can master it.

Don't be afraid. You probably won't get it right first time but we can help and you can be assured that in 3 schools I have yet to see a SMART IEP written by the professionals.

Sorry. Meant to add that what happens next is you go to the school and say that this is the IEP you want to see and you will get one of two responses.

1. Okay (not likely by the sounds of your school). When you come to IEP review you will get decent evidence of what hasn't worked and why which can be useful in your argument for additional resources i.e. statement.

2. No way, plus list of excuses/reasons about why not which you put in writing to them asking them to confirm, along with the IEP you want which also gives you the evidence of how the school is unable to meet the needs of your child without additional resources.

Madprest

I'm no expert on grades.

But what I would do is appeal the refusal to assess.

For a number of reasons:

1. LA would probably cave in and assess rather than fight it at Tribunal

2. Even if you went to Tribunal you'd probably win, as most failures to SA are overturned at tribunal

3. It would force LA to undertake an Ed Pysch assessment as they would be daft to try to fight it at Tribunal without an EP assessment.

Meanwhile do try to get a good SMART IEP drawn up. But without understanding why exactly your DD is experiencing difficulties then it's almost impossible to understand what support she needs to get her working at the level of her peers. And it's the why that would be teased out by an SA.

WetAugust - most children with SEN do not get or need a statement.

Something has gone wrong which means DD is behind (presumably dyslexia ) - but currently she is making adequate progress.

Her DD does have problems. She is 2 years behind where she should be.

You don't qualify for a statement just because you're 2 years behind.

You don't qualify for a statement just because you'd make better progress with 1:1 support.

The OP needs to do lots. And needs to get her head round a lit if things. And become a lot more proactive.

But she really, really doesn't meet the criteria for a statement based on the info she has posted here.

MadP would be better off using her time to get to grips with her childs difficulties, and IEPs, and dyslexia, and working with school - then chasing a statement she won't get.

Disagree.

Madprest's DD has an established history of long-term learning difficultiues as she has consistently failed to meet the Govt's recognised targets at each Key Stage.

That should set alarm bells ringing.

Without a SA her DD's actual learning difficulties are just mere guesses- why presume dyslexia?. It could equally be hearing problems, auditory processing problems, social and communication difficultes etc etc.

The fact remains that the underlying cause for failing to meet the grade is only being guessed at. An SA would determine that cause.

Yes, I agree that the IEP could be better but unless you know why the child is failing you may as well just write an IEP that says Improve - without understanding how that improvement will be achieved.

One thing Madprest could do which would be far better than relying on a disinterested school / SENCO would be to commission her own private EP report.

Of course you don't qualify for a Statement just because you're 2 years behind / would fare better with 1:1. On the other hand you shouldn't be disbarred from SA because of blanket policies regarding how far behind you actually have to be to qualify for an assessment.

You are missing the point,. This child has chronic learning difficultiues yet no one can do other than guess why that might be. An SA would tell them.

Bit disappointed that you are vexatiously clinging to you won't get a Statement.

You're in no position to say this.

A SA is not the way to find out the underlying cause. A SA is not the way to find out about her DDs chronic learning difficulties.

That is a totally separate process to getting a SA.

20% of kids fail to meet govt targets. Whereas only about 2% of kids have statements.

Very, very, very few kids have statements just for chronic learning difficulties. And most of them will be in the bottom 2% - which Madprest's DD is well above.

Alarm bells ringing does not mean a statement.

You don't need a SA to get seen by an EP. If that is what Madprest wants to happen, that's what she needs to focus on. At the moment I think Madprest needs to work out who she does want to see her DD. And if it's the EP, she needs to decide whether she wants to pay for it herself, or whether she wants to continue to pressure school to make it happen.

I'm only saying she won't get a statement based on the fact she doesn't meet any of the criteria in the SEN COP. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

The SEN COP is very clear. Her DD would have to have not make 'adequate progress' to qualify for a statement - and she has made adequate progress.

If her DD made no progress in the next 2 years, then it would be worth applying for a statement.

It's been a while and I've moved on from that stage, but I'm fairly certain that the overarching criteria for a statutory assessment is that the child 'probably needs one' as daft as that is.

I agree that that would be difficult to establish without an EP and without further evidence. Having said that, the CoP also says that lack of evidence should not be used as a reason for not assessing.

What this tells me is that the whole thing is a load of bloody nonsense. And you can certainly use the argument that lack of evidence is THE REASON why a SA is required iyswim.

However, presumably you believe that your child needs a statement before you would go through this and so you would probably want to ensure that things are set up to give yourself the best possible chance. And that means decent records on the IEP, as well as an EP report of some kind, and quite possibly a dx (although not essential, life is easier if you have one).

Hi Madprest

I have to say that I agree with IndigoBell and wetaugust. Beacause I think they are saying largely the same thing but approaching from different angles.

IndigoBell is completely right in saying that the academic progress is a huge aspect that LAs look for.

Wetaugust is completely correct that it isn't the only aspect. Also, that one argument for SA is 'how can we know whether she needs a statement unless you assess'.

It is really important to realise that MN SN is a very disproportionate group of people. If MNHQ were to do a survey, there would be MUCH more than 2% of posters on this board who have children with a statement.

It is not normal for a child to have a statement because they have SN. Thinking of my DD2's school, there are 160 children. That means that we should expect that on average there would be 3 children out of whole school with a Statement. Take from that the fact that my DD1, who would have been one of those, is at a Special School....for example, and you are talking about an even smaller number.

I think IndigoBell has hit this spot on. You as her parent need to work out what is going on. THEN you need to look at the SEN CoP to see what should be done.

Resubmitting a SA request at this stage will be fruitless, as would an appeal. LAs don't just turn down for the sake of it. They really don't. That doesn't mean your DD doesn't need a Statement (I don't know her). What it means is that whatever the LA saw wasn't very convincing, so needs to be worked on.

Thanks everyone for replies. Wetaugust you seem to know what is bothering me more and I will be ringing IPSEA and I am carrrying on with appeal. I have nothing to lose and I am not going to give up. It's not just about her grades it is also about her emotional well being. I only want assessment for underlying cause so everyone will know and help her to make progress. If this fails I will have to beg,steal and borrow to pay for private EP. Appreciate all replies...thanks.

A statutory assessment is not about assessing for underlying cause.

It's about assessing if she needs a statement (which normally means she needs significant amount of 1:1).

Assessing for underlying cause is something you do though the correct health professional.

What do you think her problem is?

Have you asked school if she can be seen by the EP?

Do you think she needs to be seen by a child development paed?

The only thing an EP can diagnose is dyslexia. They can also make recommendations to school about what school can do to help.

However if her problem is not dyslexia but something else, then she needs to be seen by a different health professional.

What are her symptoms?

"Very, very, very few kids have statements just for chronic learning difficulties. And most of them will be in the bottom 2%"

I was both extremely cross, not just to say disappointed to read the above comment in this thread. What is that actually based on?. Such a comment is ill thought out at the very least. This also sounds like LEA thoughtspeak to me; this is the sort of guff they usually come out with. Madprest, blanket policies are not allowed in law.

In this part of Essex, the EP can only make recommendations re how to address additional needs, they do not diagnose any learning difficulty.

Why was your DD given a refusal to assess?. A perceived lack of evidence presented to the LEA is not enough reason itself for refusal.

Statement Stats

In England there are 57,200 children in MS primary schools with a statement.

Of those 2,490 have a primary dx of Specific Learning Difficulty (although that may not be their only dx, or their only problem at school)

So, 4% of the kids in MS primary schools with a statement have a primary dx of SpLD - and less than 2% of kids have a statement in the first place.

So 00.08% of the MS primary school population have a statement for a primary dx of SpLD.

It's up to you whether you think that counts as very few or not.

Sorry, my percentage was far too optimistic.

There were 4,093,710 children on roll (of MS primary schools)
of which 57,280 had a statement
of which 2,490 had a statement for SpLD

Which is 0.0006 of the MS primary school population

(I wish I'd looked this up before I applied for a statement for my DD)

Reading these replies and having just managed to get a statement for my AS son, I would say that before you can justify whether or not your DD needs assessment for a statement you need to establish WHY she is not progressing. A statement if you get it has to address the specific needs with specific strategies to overcome them. - Often a diagnosis will help you to justify what help she needs and why.

In my case we were referred for assessment by the GP to the appropriate professional. If you do not have a DX then perhaps writing down all the difficulties, getting the school if they will to do the same then visiting the GP may be the way forward in getting the correct person to see your DD.
The EP may also be able to do this but will not be able to actually make any diagnosis.

An appeal, whether you get a statement or not at the end of it, is usually worthwhile in my opinion as it ensures a timescale in which evidence has to be gathered which would satisfy a tribunal. Having a deadline is often the only way to get an EP to see your child or a proper and full diagnosis. So I agree you should appeal if for no other reason than it will make those involved gather proper evidence and get a proper plan in place.
Adequate progress is defined in COP and can be compared to previous levels but can also be compared to peers, be compared against underlying IQ etc. So for eg if a child has a high IQ but their academic scores are well below average - or their scores in different areas of the curriculum vary widely then that would represent a severe limit of the potential ability of that individual child.
Also all the stuff Wet said about social, emotional etc.
Look at P Scales for Social and Emotional development - you can find P scales online. Perhaps you will find that there is a severe delay on this score which can help you argue there is a delay.
But academic ability is not the only basis to get a statement. A statement can be given in any situation where needs cannot be met from the ordinary resources of a school - that could be a child who needs special equipment or therapy. Help on a statement can be much more than 1:1 help.
If you as a parent feel your child is not doing as well as they should, and as you say you have 4 so you should know, then you are right to appeal.
Look at IPSEA website and download the refusal to assess pack.
Lack of evidence is a reason to appeal because thats what a statutory assessment is for - to find out what the problems are and what support is needed, lack of evidence is not a reason to refuse to assess. To refuse to assess they have to have evidence all needs are already being met. Not every statutory assessment will lead to a statement, but it may give you the answers you want and you can pull out at any stage. As you say you have nothing to lose.

I think it is worth remembering that there is LOTS that a school can do to help a child with a specific learning difficulty from within their own resources.

Statements of Educational Need are only issued when ALL of the criteria are met:

-Inadequate progress
-Child needs specific measures to progress
-School cannot be expected to meet those needs without the resources of the Local Authority

Even if a child has extensive needs, if the school could reasonably be expected to meet those needs from within their own resources, a Statement will not be issued.

I think, actually, that there is a lot of myth surrounding the statementing process. For example, that even when a child is undergoing Statutory Assessment, the LA is going to do everything in their power to refuse the final statement. The actual truth is that in 2009, 26,490 children underwent Statutory Assessment. Only 1060 (0.04%) did NOT get a Statement of Educational Need at the end of the process.

The criteria for SA is that the child will 'probably' need one so usually they are going to get one if SA agreed. Are there stats on requests and refusals?

(although I can quite believe there are a good number of nuts requests)

I think in Madprest DD case it would be useful for her to apply for a SA to fully identify her childs difficulties as many LA's EP's duties are now only for SA purposes due to cut backs.