Sensory issues or Oppositional Defiant Disorder? Long sorry!

[Jerbil]

Finally bit the bullet and took a video of DS1's behaviour (trying to get him to wear socks) to HT yesterday. HT is quite supportive and open to eventualities and admits knowledge is limited when it comes to this. But he did say I was too nice to DS1, well if you're being video'd you're hardly like to stand there screaming and shouting are you? A friend said I was damned if I did or I didn't anyway. Too nice = I'm letting him get away with it/ Too strict = I'm inducing the stress of the situ!
HT also said cos I've let DS1 get away with it for 2 years he's bound to show this behaviour now, well that behaviour is what led to this situation. He didn't start by calmly saying I don't want to wear sock, he started by grunting, screaming and crying and taking off his socks the minute my back was turned!
So I decided to stay quite nice for the video so that he can see the reaction of DS1 when trying to get him to wear certain things. Result = mild tantrum, crying and 5 minutes of complete stress for him. HT said we cannot go through that every morning, and that was mild cos I was being nice. HT said it was good to see it, but had I thought of ODD? I said I've read about it, but I don't know. He's not unkind, quite the opposite (is that a feature?) He insists I turn any fighting (Ben 10 etc.) off immediately it comes one the TV. He doesn't get involved in any trouble at School. Quite the extreme opposite, even his teacher says it. In fact, to describe his gentile nature I would say he's on a par with the gentlest, quietest girl in the class. He generally conforms. Sits at carpet time etc. Doesn't do reading when asked, (err, just got glasses, visual tracking problems and cannot read!) On the other hand, for me he is quite oppositional which his CP has said yes he is oppositional. He's not very compliant at appointments for example. I know HT is trying to be helpful, and states DS1 needs a diagnosis which we're just about to embark on another road for a 2nd opinion.
Anyone got experience of SPD/ODD? Would love to hear opinions. Thanks

How old is ds?

you could have a look at Symptoms of Conduct Disorder, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, and Callous-Unemotional Traits as Unique Predictors of Psychosocial Maladjustment in Boys: Advancing an Evidence Base for DSM-V
Which is also included in Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)

Thanks. uniCorny 5.11 years.

LeninGrad Thanks PDA? is that same as PDD-NOS? Sorry for being ignorant.

dolfrog thanks yet again :-)

LeninGrad Had a look at PDA on NAS website. Some of it fits yes, but yet again, DS1 deviates from this 'norm' by not having any pretend play (detests pretending).
Was interesing though.

There are few (if any) children that conform exactly to any condition and this is especially true when looking on the autistic spectrum so don't discount something just because he doesn't fit one criteria.
My ds (5.6) has been seen by the paed and now referred to Camhs for investigation into PDA.
We have endured many years of battles over socks, clothes, shoes, baths, teeth cleaning, hair brushing etc etc so I know exactly where you are coming from when you say damned if you do and damned if you don't.
We spent years trying every parenting technique there is and wondering what we were doing wrong because they just didn't work. PDA explains why.
I would say you need to do lots of reading and research in this area. Does your ds have any problems at school? Your ht says you need a diagnosis, what makes him think that?

Dawndonna's DD2 here.
I have AS, ODD, SPD and others! I'm lovely! . Seriously though, we have all sorts of coping strategies in place. I'm 15 and still have problems. I've said before, I know what's going on but can't control it, the mouth or reactions keep going even though the head says stop! Mum says it's important to pick your battles, she ignores the fact that my bedroom can get untidy, but will pick me up on wearing make up to school, or not wearing socks. I'm better than I used to be, at primary school I wouldn't wear knickers! Wasn't too bad because Mum wouldn't let me wear skirts. With the socks thing, Mum puts them on the bed, if I don't put them on, she says have you forgotten them and then says, would you like to put them on please, rather than go and put them on. When I was younger, it was bet you can't get them on before I've finished my coffee. It seems to work, it's not telling me, so I have nothing to bang my head against. Hope this helps.

popgoestheweezel Thanks - absolutely totally agree he shouldn't have to fit all the criteria. But he's already been turned down a diag of ASD because he was socially warm during ADOS and during school obs was ok. CP says he has a strong ASD developmental history. CP said she knows there's something she just hasn't a clue what it's called hence the 2nd opinion. The only thing the HT sees really is that he doesn't wear socks or underpants. He's a very good boy on the whole, will not partake in any rough and tumble whatsoever. will avoid it to the extreme. would rather colour every lunch time. He's on the SEN register for making little progress with literacy, numeracy much better. Things like not wanting to be touched are becoming more apparent, and not wanting to take a tissue cos it's torn from the box in the class, then teacher hands it to him, but then it's full of germs. little bits like this do not necessarily show in a 3 hour assessment. HT also said I've let him get away with this for 2 years and therefore that's why it's so hard now. Well he was like this to start with so why was he doing it then? :-(

Dawndonna's DD2 - aww thanks hun. wow, gr8 to hear from someone with 1st hand experience. Yes DS1 will not wear underpants either :-) Was it your SPD or the PDD that drove you not to do this? DS1 says they hurt, and gets very anxious.

DD's Ds2 again. It's a few things. TBH I don't like wearing clothes at all. Everything is so restrictive and uncomfortable. I get in from school and I get straight into my pjs, inside out. I don't do seams, they rub. We get seamless socks, tights sometimes, and I wear boxers, they're softer and don't feel as restrictive. I like the jersey ones. I asked Mum if it was my SPD thing that makes me like it, but she's not sure, she says everythings wrapped up together now because I'm fifteen and we've been working on this since I was tiny. I used to take my nappies off too! I have a diagnosis of AS too, but I can be quite socialable at school. Mum says the HT should be encouraging you to get a diagnosis without questioning your parenting strategies. It's not a case of letting anyone get away with anything, it's a case of working round things and finding a strategy that works for you both as well as getting some help.
Hope this helps.
Tinks.

One of the the things which was recommended to me on here was a visual timetable. It has seriously reduced the amount of stress for us in the morning.

Sorry if you have already tried it but heres how it works for us.

Dd3 [9 with ASD] used to get really annoyed with me for telling her to do everything but she was unable to do the morning routine without me telling her every step, eg. Put your clothes on, have your breakfast, brush you teeth etc etc. I used to get on my own nerves and it sent Dd3 round the bend.

Once we had the timetable she was able to manage the routine without me interferring, other than to say have you looked at your timetable [which usually gets a grunt or a growl in response].

I have found that it has removed alot of the stress of the morning, I am not saying it will help ith the socks but it might help with the confrontation.

Good luck and don't be put off by the HT's comments, IME some of them know very little about what some parents and children go through just to arrive at school in the morning.

DDs Ds2 - thanks again. That is extremely useful and an amazing insight into what might be going on in DS1's world.

I don't know how I can go on making DS1's life a misery. It feels like I am hurting him so many times a day just by trying to get him dressed, to eat etc. :-(

Ineedalife - Thanks Don't think HT has a clue either, though he did see another example of it all today too as I dealt with something with DS1 at School. We're not too bad with regard to getting ready as he has his routine - the onyl problem being it doesn't involve putting socks or underpants on!

LeninGrad - yes I will so thanks. Our anxiety starts at around 3am, and gets progressively worse. a late trip to school seems unlikely and as I work would not be gr8 :-( but then again i do think u have a point, but if I hold out and say you're not going to school till you have your socks on, he would be quite happy to stay at home.

I have a 7yr old ADHD/ASD who has a massive sock problem. I used to have the same arguments about socks every morning culminating in me dragging him up to school and him crying all the way. It was really horrible so I sympathise.

Things are better now as I narrowed down the type of socks he coped with better. For us its NEXT socks so I just buy them and wash them on their own with loads of fabric conditioner.

I also now let him wear his socks anywhere between 2-4 days in a row (not removing them) sounds horrid I know but he is only 7 so doenst have stinky feet yet :) By doing this it lessens the amount of times in a week we have to have the arguments.

Although labels and shirt collars are a whole different argument....

I cut labels out of everything. I line the inside of shirt collars with a piece of soft material. Hope this helps.

I had to cut off a label for the first time this morning. It's own clothes day at School today to raise money for something. He is wearing his School tee-shirt and shoes because they are the only thing he could find to be comfy in today. How can socks be such a nightmare, and then he wear his shinpads (with ankle protector and strap underfoot) and his football socks?
I had some good news today. Though he has a year long wait for Occupational Therapy, the OT has agreed to meet with me next week to try and discuss some strategies. :-) Really good of her. She told me he is 136 on the waiting list - ouch!

Paed suggested ODD to me for ds1. I thought he fitted the bill quite well. Then AS was suggested to us. I wasn't sure. But he was diagnosed with AS. As Popgoes said, most children do not fit the criteria totally. Hope you get some resolution.
HT's comments about you letting hm get away with it, are nonsense.

We have also found Next socks to be more acceptable than others.The seams are fairly flat.
We have the pants problem in that Dd3 will only wear pants without frills!! Not easy for little girls. I have stock piled Tesco pants as they have a soft trim.

All of Dd3's clothes are about 3 sizes too big for her and nothing is allowed buttons!!

Keep plodding on Jerbil, at least you know you're not alone.

Ineedalife, Don't forget to stockpile in different age ranges.
Guess who forgot!

The sensory thing is extremely common in NT children too - my DS and friends DD both went through a (long) stage of hating putting socks on (similar tantrums - I could have made that video 100 x over!) and having to have labels cut out of clothes. At the same age too. Both are extremely "spirited" children! However, not aged 10+, those difficulties have long since passed.

However, with all the added difficulties and lack of progress academically, an assessment could be useful. Is the school arranging something?

now aged 10+!

I've been known to send DS1 out of the house barefoot, when it's frosty. He soon put his socks and shoes on :o

These days he won't be without socks on - they come off for his bath and a clean pair goes straight on!

Our current standoff is wearing his warm coat, though. In fact, wearing warm clothes in general. He's walked up to a mile with me before admitting he's cold and asking to put his coat on. He's not been feeling well and was feeling the cold yesterday. Didn't make a jot of difference. We had conversations along the lines of:

I'm cold
Well put some warm clothes on then
NO! I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT!!!
Fine. Stay cold then.
I'M NOT COLD!!!!! IT'S YOU WHO IS COLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just love his circular logic. He did at least let me put a vest on him, this morning!

Oh Dawndonna, I wish it was that easy

She is in the biggest size they do of that particular kind because everything has to be big.

I think I have enough to last about another yer, then who knows!!

Maybe she will just wear any[wishful thinking emoticon]

ouryve... I have no trouble getting Dd3 into a vest, its getting them off that is the problem in my house.

Last week I gave her a clean vest every day when I put her clothes on her bed each morning but come saturday when I did the washing there were only 2 dirty ones in her basket..

When I tell her to change she just says that the dirty one feels nice!!

Bless her.

Aww. Have you tried boxers? Dd2 seems happy in them, and according to her they're quite trendy for girls at the moment. I get her mens jersey ones.

And yes, the same t. shirt goes under a shirt and I have to grab it off her when she gets home from school and changes, or sneak into her room and pinch it for the wash!