Conversation with senco, does this woman have a clue?

[popgoestheweezel]

I've just had an impromptu chat with the senco at pick up time.
Ds Yr1 is in a social communication group on thursdays with the her. No member of staff has informed me of this so I don't officially know (found out via another parent whose child said that 'all the naughty kids were in this group'), but she assumed I did and told me that she and ds had had 'a lovely afternoon'.
I asked what they were doing and what the purpose of the session was. She said that play games and they do 'lots and lots of talking'. She seemed to be saying these children (ds is being assessed for PDA and at least one other for ASD) will just learn how take turns/listen/follow instructions/sit still if you tell them to. I wonder if she imagines that at home we have never tried telling ds to take turns/not hurt others/sit still/share/listen etc etc etc? If it was that f---ing easy I think we would have managed it ourselves at home wouldn't we?!!!
I asked how we could support this vacuous and pointless talking learning at home. She ummed and ahhed and then said we couldn't really
Maybe I am wrong, maybe the way forward with all sn children is just to tell them how to behave and they will- wonderful! I think we should inform the Daily Mail that she's come up with a failsafe strategy.

I think she is probably using resources such as picture scenarios etc and asking the children to talk about what is happening or what the person might be feeling. They also do role plays etc. It won't just be 'now this is what you should do'. Surely this is a good thing for your ds. We run these kind of groups in the school I work at and the children get a lot out of them.

Honestly! I think maybe your being a little harsh. Sounds like the school are trying some strategies that may work??
If they were doing nothing to help at all or not even trying i think you'd have something to moan about.
I dont suppose she's saying its a cure all but sometimes it does teach a child particularly one with SN what is expected in a given situation.
Certainly my ds2 cannot transfer skills from one situation to another so would clearly need to be shown how to turn take in a particular game for example.
Some it will work for others - not a chance.
Try not to see it as any assumption on their part as to what you may or may not do at home, school & family life are very different.

I suppose they schould of told you he was being included in the group though!

I know the feeling well. 'My kids don't get a choice' is the most common one. In the past I'd just let it go but now I'm ABSOLUTELY just fed up of it.

I can see both sides. Yes, it makes me mad when it is assumed that you don't bother doing any 'work' at home with your child. But equally, I would put money on it that there will be some children in that group who genuinely don't have any support with social communication skills at home.
I would be angrier that they hadn't told me about the work they were doing - so much for parental involvement.

You are overreacting but they should have told you more formally he was being included in these sessions. Does he have an iep , if so is one of the targets related to social skills with access to such groups implied ? Modelling behaviour through group play and activities with peers is far more effective than just telling them to behave and expecting it. You would probably find it hard to replicate that at home so don't dismiss its value nor feel slighted .

Don't get me wrong, I am very glad they are doing something to help him. I am a bit perterbed that they didn't say anything to me particularly as it turns out that we had a meeting with his class teacher to tell them what the paed had said 2 days before his first session. Surely that would have been the perfect oppourtunity to tell us, instead we got the 'not really much that can be done line'.
At that meeting we gave them some information we had found on PDA, how it manifests itself and strategies to help. However, the senco has said that when he has an outbursts they (senco & class teachers) are telling him ?in no uncertain terms, that that kind of behaviour is unacceptable?.
If, in the end, he does have PDA then using this strategy would be the last thing that would be advised. This anxiety is just supressed and ?put away? to be let out when he returns to the safety of home.
However, the senco wasn't aware of the fact that ds is been seen by the paed and now referred to CAMHS for PDA nor has she seen the information that we printed out for school.

tbh my dd ASD is told that her behaviour is unacceptable and is given a consequence for inappropriate behaviour and it is helping her massively. that said she isn't punished if the behaviour comes from being put in too difficult a situation or if she hasn't been warned that things will be different etc. I see what you mean but also think that you will need to work with the school.

I'm with you actually. You should def have been told if your child is put in a special group. I get notified when my older two picked for a gifted and talented group, let alone DS3 for a SEN group.
These social communication groups are standard offering and I'm not saying they are pointless but they are often just a one size fits all cheap intervention and not individualised to a child with particular needs. Usually they have no indep research to support them
However for Speech therapists and outreach / advisory teachers they are a quick way of ticking a box and saying SEN provision has been given - and of giving teachers ready made lesson plans where therapy can be given very cheaply to 5-6 children at one time and the speech therapist can visit - leave the plans and not come back for 6-8 weeks.
Many of these schemes work best, as you say, for children from backgrounds of language poverty eg children who don't get talked to, don't get read to; or perhaps are very shy, or anxious about talking. Not for children with underlying language disorders.
However places like ICAN recommend them - they probably have some use for milder problems - in that practice in small groups on specific language concepts can only help - but for children for whom difficulties learning language is due to a disability I am far from convinced. Mainly because my DS when practically non verbal ASD 3 year old was offered the exact same group as a highly articulate Aspie 6 year old - and surely that can't be right.
Egs of these groups are 'circle of friends' Time to Talk with Ginger Bear and black sheep. We have a new SALT now in mainstream school who is suggesting one of these but having looked at the curriculum he only knows the words for one week - I am not sure how including him in a group on use of pronouns is useful when he hasn't yet been taught pronouns! He has severe language delay / disorder and this feels like a drop in the ocean of what he needs. So I think you are right to be sceptical. The best you can ask for is for a proper baseline to be taken on literacy levels, reading age etc etc and ask what data / monitoring they will undertake to be sure this intervention is having an effect. eg compare literacy levels at start and every 3 months.
I would also ask if they are following a set lesson plan and if so if you can see it as absolutely you can reinforce it at home. I would almost bet that it is a ready made kit.

I agree it would be good that the senco kept you up to date and informed. Nothing annoys me more than being the last one to know.

BUT this is a good thing. They need to learn social skills regardless of what type of SN, and correct communication and behaviour in a school setting as well as at home. I play games, take turns and act as role model when disagreements arise. But I cant replica a school and its environment. Its a much bigger and busier place.

It wont do him any harm at all as he is mixing with other children at the same time. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour and children need to be told its not correct. What is important is HOW they are told. DS has outbursts (sometimes big ones) but the school cant pat him on the back and say well done. They have to point out that it isnt acceptable, just like we all do at home and one day hopefully it will click into place because as well as telling them its not on they are also showing him the correct way to deal with it like learn to say its all too much today iyswim. Social skills lessons will help with this :)

Its great that you have a senco that wishes to be active in her role.

Many of these schemes work best, as you say, for children from backgrounds of language poverty eg children who don't get talked to, don't get read to; or perhaps are very shy, or anxious about talking. Not for children with underlying language disorders.

Surely the interaction of mixing and conversation would help ANY child??

Along with therapies to help them with their individual issues on top?

We really, really want to work with school but so far they have given us no means of doing so. We have had a meeting with them to discuss his difficulties and asked them how we can support the work they are doing in school, but we keep getting told 'there's not really anything you can do'. It's very frustrating.

For years we (and nursery and now school) told ds that his behaviour was unacceptable and gave consequences and followed them through but to no avail. We had tried all the conventional parenting techniques under the sun (and read countless books) but no result. We had a family support team come and work with us for several weeks, they concluded that we were implementing all the techniques properly but they still didn't work with ds. Implementing PDA techniques was a total revelation to us and have really, really helped. We gave the info to school so they could use the techniques too but as i said I'm not sure they've even read it. I suggested a meeting to discuss it but ct just said 'I don't think that will be neccessary'. Again, it's frustrating.

This is the trouble with PDA (other than the obvious) is that although it's on the autistic spectrum the handling guidelines are pretty much the opposite to those you would use for typical autism. For example rather than giving clear short instructions like "Shoes on" it's better to say "Ohhh, I think I'm going to pop out to the shops now, I'd better get my shoes on. Right, I'm ready. Are you coming? Ok. Now, have I got all the things I need? Yes, I'm sorted now. What are we going to buy at the shops? blah blah blah...." Hopefully during this ds has got his own shoes on, if not I just put them on for him whilst distracting him with more chatter.

Believe me, we spent years enduring meltdowns using the short, clear technique, and could not figure out what the hell we were doing wrong. We kept thinking 'we just have to stick to our guns and eventually he will get the message. We just have to break his will' but he would never give in and all it did was make our family life a nightmare.

Unfortunately for ds he finds every single demand anxiety-inducing and school is almost nothing but demands.

Bad behaviour is bad behaviour and I wouldn't suggest that it should be condoned. What I mean is that just stopping the bad behaviour would be something but it won't stop the anxiety.

It treats the symptom not the cause and doesn't help ds one bit, all he will be doing is adding the anxiety caused by the telling off (he is incredibly sensitive to anything remotely like a telling off) to the anxiety caused by the demand and bottling them all up. That can't be good for anyone in the long term.

PDA is probably best seen as an anxiety disorder activated by loss of control, PDA literature suggests that these outbursts are viewed as panic attacks and treated accordingly. It's going to be pretty hard to overcome an anxiety disorder just by being told that anxiety outbursts are unacceptable.

cansu- "she isn't punished if the behaviour comes from being put in too difficult a situation" ds as he finds almost all demands too difficult to handle.

DS is told that it is unacceptable in the manner of "thats not the way we do things now is it" in a soft tone not a telling off tone. More of a quiet passing by talk really. Hard to explain in print. he is not punished and is merely redirected onto something else. They realise he cant help it and dont excalate matters by adding consequence. The social side of things as in stories, games etc with adults role playing is to eventually and hopefully help him come to understand the correct manner to use iyswim. If he doesnt "get it" then at least by the time he is an adult I am hoping he will just "act it out" as that is better than nothing at all :)

I do undertstand where you are coming from with the school. They are being unfair (and stupid) if they are not willing to take on board your offer of help and ideas and you have every right to be included and informed of choice methods.

School used 'usual' behavioural techniques to deal with ds when he used to cover his ears. They started counting down and he would put his hands down because he was anxious and did not know what the punishment will be. However, he had sensory processing disorder and a lot of times, would cover his ears when the noise was too loud, or when he needed time to process information. The inappropriate techniques caused greater anxieties and his misbehaviour to escalate. When the appropriate techniques were finally implemented by his new teacher, his aggression stopped within a couple of months.

*Many of these schemes work best, as you say, for children from backgrounds of language poverty eg children who don't get talked to, don't get read to; or perhaps are very shy, or anxious about talking. Not for children with underlying language disorders.

Surely the interaction of mixing and conversation would help ANY child??*

No it has to be at an appropriate level. A child with severe expressive and receptive language delay will not be able to access these sessions. It is important that the sessions are peer-matched in terms of ability. It is very well for school to say that a child will benefit from being around those with higher ability but not if a child cannot understand simple words next, below, under, who, where.

Social communication groups can help children with significant SN. DD1's school uses them. The tecnique can be as simple as a game of 'hide and seek' with soft toys. Now, lots of the children won't 'get it', and for lots of them, they will do their own thing, but they are seeing the interaction of a turn taking game, and drip, drip, drip...it soaks in.

DD1 still can't 'play' in the same way as her sisters, but she is slowly getting the idea that playing is 'good' and she tries, in her own way.

Yes, but it has to be appropriate social communication groups and the steps broken down and someone expalining it at a level they understand

In ms, I saw a video of how my ds played with other children. They were playing games with instructions such as turn a circle, turn half a circle etc. My ds could not understand the instructions, the child next to him was turning him, pushing him and helping him do the actions. It really did benefit the other child who had social skills problem but not ds who did not understand. It was painful to watch. Now if someone had taught him the key words and explained it to him, he might have enjoyed it. Ds really wants to play with other children, he just needed someone to help him access it.

In the unit ds now attends, someone actually tells him the purpose of the games they are playing, makes sure he understands the key words, breaks it down etc. all at a level that he can understand and he is participating a lot more.

I looked briefly at the nas website last night. The section on social communication learning was interesting. It also said that it's pointless trying to teach children these skills if they haven't got the appropriate listening skills or emotional empathy first. Ds doesn't have either.

I dont really know to be honest I think if I waited for my son to learn empathy then I will be an old lady I would rather they spent some time at school and I do at home trying to learn social skills and like I said he grew up just saying the right things because thats what people do. At least it will keep him out of trouble within reason. He feels empathy to others sometimes by visual as in if they cry so he knows somethings up but avoids that person instead as he really doesnt care what they are FEELING. So if he says sorry at the right time and its your turn just because thats what happens so be it. :)

Maybe one day everything will click into place.

"Surely the interaction of mixing and conversation would help ANY child??

Along with therapies to help them with their individual issues on top?"

Well no, not if your child does not have the skills to mix or interact and is not at the level where they can have a conversation as was the case for my son. And when they are the ONLY intervention, which was also the case for us despite a child with severe ASD

So unless very minor and easily fixable problems I have severe doubts these programmes in themselves are enough, but many LAs and SALT depts are suggesting that they are all that is needed because they don't want to fund direct therapy.

Even for behaviour if a child has a deficit of social understanding and does not care how their behaviour affects others then just talking about what good behaviour looks like is not likely to be enough. It has to be paired with a positive behaviour system / rewards, and proper coaching in social skills on an individual basis. I haven't seen any research saying these sort of groups are effective for PDA / ASD.

Thanks agnes for explaining :)

AgnesDiPesto - so agree - some of these Social skills courses are next to useless for ASD

If ASD's kids could learn effectively just by modelling, then most of their symptoms would be ''cured'' by just being in mainstream around NT kids all the time.

Well I dont totaly agree with that seeing as my DS is in a MS school and is having social skills group work and individual with the HT/SENCO at lunchtimes and he has earnt to goes in the lucky pot this week due to stickers for saying the right thing at the right time. He doesnt quite get why but he is saying it on cue every so often, so far. That is 2 good weeks for him in the last month for social skills behaviour. So modelling does help and no he isnt just going to be "cured" just by being in a MS because he is always going to get it wrong at some point due to the empathy side and he has sensory stuff to deal with. But in the quiet 1 to 1 or small 2 or 3 kids they are helping him tremendously. If you want kids to get on in life in the social world they have to learn the skills even if it is parrot fashion. When I here this then I know if I keep going with trying to teach him emotions, faces, body language at home and role model games then he will get there one way or another.

I can definately see where agnes is coming from though pointed out that it wont work for various levels of communication issues but seeing as DS is lined up for ASD/ADHD combined/Tourettes and OT commented on PDA he isnt doing too bad. So I guess I am saying it does work for SOME but not all. :)

coff33pot - Some of them - please note as in this and the above post I said some of the social skill courses are useless. ABA has some proved results as do some other courses. A lot however are pretty useless but are cheap and can be administered by a TA but mean the LEA feel they are meeting their obligations.

If ASD's kids could learn effectively just by modelling, then most of their symptoms would be ''cured'' by just being in mainstream around NT kids all the time.

sorry raspberrry it was this bit I didnt agree with :) should have put a quote but got two boys zooming around with shotguns and on jack russel acting as chief mine sniffer dog around my ankles

Not going to get into a bun fight but if ''JUST' modelling worked then why are not all ASD kids getting better and better in MS ?