Child being punished for ASD behaviour?

[Shakirasma]

or am I being oversensitive?

DS is 4.9 and in reception. He has just been approved for a statutory assessment and was dx with ASD just over a month ago.

He has 2 teachers on a part time job share basis and is in a class of 30! His condition is severe enough that DH and I are seriously considering pushing for a special school.

One of his teachers, although really lovely, clearly has no experience of ASD and often comments on his 'bad behaviour' generally stuff that I think is typical of ASD.

Today, first day back after half term, she told me he had been 'a nightmare' as he had been really noisy and was shouting and squealing on the carpet. (we have long known he struggles with carpet/group time as he cannot connect with the situation and tends to run off or be generally disruptive, and he frequently has vocal outbursts of 'silly' shouting)

so she made him stay in at playtime to practice being quiet with his favourite TA. When I asked if it had worked she said he was lovely and quiet, until the other kids came back in!

He has spent all afternoon saying 'want go on playground mummy'.

This is one of many similar conversations I've had with this teacher.

So given that as far as I am aware his behaviour is typical of an ASD child not coping with a situation, am I right to feel that he is getting punished for being ASD and that the staff are pretty incompetent to think that punishment is going to teach him anything?

Sounds like he is being punished for his typically ASD behaviors.

I wouldnt be happy either.

. Not a great way to treat a child with ASD. Your poor Ds, he would have had no idea why he wasn't in the playground, bless him.

You right about the staff being incompetent although it could be that the TA's don't feel able to overrule the Teacher. I have been in that situation.

You need an appointment with the SENCO ASAP.

Good luck

My DS would have loved being in the classroom with his favourite adult instead of being in the playground. He would have seen it as a reward.
Do you have an ASD team in your area who could help thestaff to understand more about ASD? Sounds as though they just don't understand.

Now I think about it, Dd1 was punished for being disruptive in assembly, her punishment was to stay in the classroom and read or do puzzles with the TA.

That was 18 years ago, shame some things havent changed.

They started off punishing my DS by leaving him in a corridor on his own with a box of toys every lunchtime Because he would run off and not come back in (he was actually running away from all the kids as he didnt want out there anyway)

He just got used to this and was happy on his own because that was exactly what he wanted. Totally ended any chance of social interaction for him for at least 4 weeks till an EP told them to stop it

I'm sorry but asking any child that age to 'practice being quiet' is about as much use as telling a piece of chocolate to 'practice being a fireguard'. Most kids can be quiet when it's only them and one adult FGS - and that's before you take the ASD into account. They need strategies to help him cope on the carpet - TA sitting with him, a carpet 'spot' for him to sit on (that worked really well for my DS by the way), a timer to help him visualise the length of time he needs to be quiet, etc.

gree 'punishment' with an ASD child really does not work. you have to tell them what you do want them to do, not what you dont want them to do.

how stupid, the whole point is for them to identify where his areas of difficulties are and deal with them.
They could consider wobberly cushion, tangle toys, blue tack, visuals.
I would be so mad [anger]

Absolutely ridiculous!!!

I'm assuming they are fully aware of his dx. ASD is not that uncommon these days and i'd be very surprised if this is the first case they've had to deal with. I understand that if your ds is disrupting the other children on a regular basis then they can't just overlook it, but they have to remember that an immediate consiquence is the only way to deal with bad behaviour, whether it's a behaviour he can help or not. Giving him a punishment later on ie playtime is just so confusing. As we're all aware the spectrum is huge and he will need an individual plan which helps him not just keeps the class room quiet.

I would definitely organise a meeting with the SENCO to discuss your concerns asap.

Do you really think he would be better in a special school? Or do you think he would do perfectly well at this school if it weren't for the fact that they are clearly not meeting his needs. Of course some children can't cope in a MS school, but you can't decide whether your son is one of them when the staff aren't doing all they can to help your ds. If he can cope and thrive in a MS school, then he should.

I had this. It was so awful. Even thought senco knew he was being assessed.
School hasn't got much better since. Realistically, I doubt yours will either, don't you?

DS2 shrieks during carpet time or assembly and rarely sits still unless he's on someone's lap, so he does get taken out when he can no longer cope with staying put. It's never seen as a punishment, though, rather as responding to a signal that he's not connecting with this particular adult led convention and his time would be better spent doing something more relevant to him.

Asking him to practice being quiet would be quite ridiculous. He even babbles, sings and giggles himself to sleep!

oblomov, to say that realistically OP's situation wont get better either is not a particuarly helpful or nice thing to say. I'm sorry that you have had a hard time with your dc's school, but suggesting that things aren't going to improve for somebody else when you have such little information about their situation makes no sense to me. I could have read your comment wrong, or maybe you didn't mean it in that way. If that's the case then I take it back.

And this is what they call inclusion

I can't write anything cos this makes me so angry.

Your poor baby.

My two have never had anything like this at their special school. Now they really are included in everything. Not segregated like your son has been here.

quadruple, I totally disagree. Are you an old timer with alot more experience than me ? If you are then I, pleae don't mind being corrected. AT ALL.
I have only been on the sn boards for a couple of years. I fought and fought my school. And still do. And many, old , experienced, qualified MN'ers, told me that schools rarely changed. And that I would have to consider moving ds. And I found that very hard to swallow. But they are so right.
And when a school acts so poorly, so poorly, that they obviously don't have a clue, or are so arrogant, that they will never change, they often don't.
And I sincerely hope that I am wrong, on OP. But I fear not.
And that is only one opinion.
But to be told by you, that my opinion is unhelpful, is extremely offensive.
Its not unhelpful. My view is based on experience, and many many many MN'ers will also back it up, as their expereience aswell. SO it may be harsh, and a very hard pill to swallow,( believe me, I know all about those.some of my own threads that i started on sn, have been very hard reading, for me too.) But that doesn't make it invalid. or unhelpfull.
so , pLEASE DO take that comment back.

Some schools can change. It is sometimes purely the lack of experience and training that makes them operate incorrectly. Unless we challenge it then it will always remain so. And no I am not experienced just experienced in my school alone.

They were crap for want of a better word in the beginning, hence why they shoved my son in the hall. But over the last 2 years they have listened, have pleaded in emails to EP, LA, Autism specialist to give them advice. The senco herself took books from me and passed them around her teachers whilst purchasing them herself too. They still get it wrong but they are not afraid to say or admit that they are getting it wrong. So sometimes there are good schools..................it is finding them tho :)

Thank you all so much for your comments. You have confirmed what I thought and I find the fact that we are not alone with this problem both comforting and depressing.
I was hesitant to say anything at the time as I am still a novice with all this and I didn't want to come across as a parent who cannot accept my son can be naughty and who puts everything down to his condition.
I am in the process of writing my parent statement for his statutory assessment and will certainly be using this experience to push for properly trained, specialist support.

Some schools change. Rarely. It all depends on the reason for the 'mistakes', in the first place.
You hear it on MN. Occassionally. A new poster, at the start of their sn journey, with an unhelpful teacher, who isn't trained enough to see the real issues.
But come on, in this day and age is that acceptable? For a teacher not to know anything about Autism? NO. There's loads of diabetics. Loads of allergies and epi-pen users. Loads of people with Autism. Schools need to buck their ideas up and 'get with it'. Claiming ignorance, just isn't good enough anymore.
Then the poster comes back, and as coffee just said, once the teacher was given the info, the school take on board and the situation improves greatly. Great. Terrific.
But how common do you think those stories are ? Not THAT common in my experience of MN. I see more threads of total desperation, sobbing, marriages that are lucky to have survived under the pressure. Tales of woe of Teachers ignoring senco's, or schools ignoring private reports. And not doing what the statement says. And people fighting and fighting the LEA to get a statement, with appeals, and the money and the trauma........
shall I go on ?
And its not just on MN. I went to my local Aspergers group for the first time, last month. 3 new women, including me. All told our stories. And we all sobbed. And said the strain had been terrible.

Ds is at one of supposedly the best schools int he country. They disputed anthing wrong. And wrote to Paed to say so. He dismissed my concerns. Then eventually I get a diagnosis form CAMHS of AS. School still have done nothing. Since then the school senco has advised the EP, thta there is no need to assess him. Even though this was CAMHS advice. And so I am going off today to meet with Outreach, who I have begged to do an assessment. And I have a meeting with EP in a few weeks. Both Outreach and EP have told me that, from their view is that ds is fine in school. Senco has told them so. And they've done a 15 minute assessment and he seemed fine.
I want to scream. AS is not always obvious. He hasn't got a broken leg. He needs proper assesssment. To assess his cognitive skills and working memeory. Wonder if school has told Outreach and EP how much he is bullied, and that the boys admitted to the head that they do bully him?
You would only hear him 'talk like a little old man', classic Aspergers trait, if you sat down with him and talked to him. But neither asssessement did that.

So no, my senco isn't going to change. their ASD experience apparently is exemplary. Its me who has the problem, apparently.

So, back to my original point. OP's post, doesn't BODE well. It depends on what the reasons for not being good are. They may well change. If they are just ill informed. Or money may be the issue.
There are more stories on MN and RL of mums struggling to get what their children need, than there are of just a school being ill informed, and suddenly changing for the better. Often things only change at a school when you get a new Head or a new Senco, with 'better' views.
Lets hope Op's situtation, is just one of schools ignorance. If it is, her journey will be a lot easier than many of our journeys.

oblomov, I said that I would take back my comments if i'd got it wrong, but after reading your response, I don't think I have. I'm not suggesting that you haven't had a lot of experience in this and have your reasons for having this opinion, but Let's journey back shall we, "School hasn't got much better since. Realistically, I doubt yours will either, don't you?" Can you please explain what part of that comment is helpful? Of course we're all entitiled to our opinions on here, but my point, which I am also entitled to was merely that it was a very flippant and depressing point to make when you know so little about the OP's ds's school and situation in general. I too have spoken to lots of mums who haven't always had the best outcome and have spent most if not all their time fighting their dc's school and not always getting anywhere. However, I have also heard some very positive stories and there's nothing to suggest that Shakirasma can't be one of them. I'm sorry that you've felt the need to be quite so aggressive towards me in your tone, I wasn't in mine.

Shakirasma, have you arranged a meeting with the SENCO? It's very disappointing to hear your story, but I really hope it's a problem that can be fixed. Do you have a good relationship with your ds's teachers? Have you been looking at other schools, MS or otherwise?

For me the KEY thing is if the teachers are willing to admit they don't know stuff. ASD is this massive spectrum and even on here you realise some of our kids are SO different from one another, depending on which specific sensory issues and traits are predominant, their general IQ and co-morbids. This is a disorder that covers the most dependent adults in society who need feeding and nappy changing right through to brain surgeons. NOONE can know everything, especially as neuro science is in it's infancy. A typical PGCE course may spend 15 mins on autism.

The WORST teacher my lad has had was the one who had an aspie daughter so assumed she knew everything about how to handle and teach my child, frankly she didn't and the damage will take years to undo. Sadly as a teacher of 12 years standing at that school her word was taken as gospel by other staff and so they were very resistant to autism outreach, or anyone who might have a different view to hers, professional or otherwise. the asd kid she taught the following year had an awful experience too, due too her arrogance and the senco's & heads blind faith.

My lad's current school admit they don't know everything and are doing their utmost to learn. The difference for my son is like night and day - he's so happy and coming on in leaps and bounds. Discussions are frank and open, and so progress is made. His teachers are thrilled as at heart every teacher loves it when a struggling child blossoms and makes progress - it's heart warming and adults rspond to positive reinforcement too.

I suppose my experience after 3 mainstream primaries is that if the school is open-minded and willing to learn a bad situation can become a great one, but if they are close-minded, arrogant, patronising and ignorant of your child's needs then frankly it won't get any better no matter how hard you try. You'll put in a LOT of effort for nothing.

Sort out which attitude your son's school has - open-minded or closed and go from there.

Completely agree with your bochead.

quadruple, I don't think I was agressive in tone. at all. not to you. I'm sorry if you felt I was. I think you are totally misunderstanding and misinterpreting my posts.

you even

I too agree with Bochead. She put it beautifully, and succiently wrote what I was trying to explain.

Lets hope Op's situtation improves.
Hopefully Senco can educate teacher asap.

Oblomov, I hope I have been misunderstanding your posts tbh. I think we're all on the same page and not just literally, so it's pointless to squabble when someone is just looking for some advice. Let's be honest, most of us on here are so bloody knackered, we don't have the time for petty quarrels. So shall we just get back to the matter at hand? No hard feelings?

Agree completely with bochead

My ds1 (8) is asd but his asd traits are subtle, although obv this still causes him problems.

Paed not willing to dx yet EP not willing to dx yet School, whilst happily telling me how behind he is, not willing to do anything yet

I do wonder, sometimes, what the fuck they are waiting for????

Every SENco I have met has been crap. Sorry. I know thats not what you want to hear. They are regular teachers who have gone on a course and therefore think they know about every SN/SEN.

My dh and I have come to the conclusion over the past 3 years that we are not waiting for some formal dx that may never come and have to help our son ourselves. To date he has;
Done a course of AIT
Done a course of RRT
Is doing earobics and apples and pears - dyslexia and APD interventions
Omega fish oil
Write from the Start

I could go on......

Happily, they have all helped him (and have cost us a fortune along the way!)

We have also moved schools and home schooled for a time.

I am afraid that my experience is that schools just arent interested in SN/SEN kids. They cost a lot of time and money and resources and bugger up the SATS results and OFSETD inspections. They dont know your child (how can they?? They see them for maybe 4 hours 5 days a week for 39 weeks a year and my ds1 behaves quite differently at school than he does at home!)

Sorry to sound so defeatist but, for my son, school is about seeing his friends and socialising......they cant help him.....they cant give him the specialist dyslexia 1-1 tuition he needs (and that the EP recommended) but I can. They cant do anything to help his auditory processing problems, but I can.

If I could get my son into a specialist dyslexia school I would.