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Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on special needs.

Place you bets here - are we going to tribunal again?

53 replies

StarChartEsq · 16/06/2011 10:10

Amended statement due end of this week. We had the proposed, we rewrote it completely, promised it by end of week.

Should I currently be downloading appeal forms?

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asdx2 · 17/06/2011 16:17

Oh as well as going to the LGO about maladministration.

Not sure how I'm supposed to fit in the actual care bit besides some days Angry

StarChartEsq · 17/06/2011 16:31

You know I don't think tribunal is for a special breed of badly treated parent anymore, but part of the standard statementing process and pretty normal and expected. FFS I'm taking them to tribunal for not quantifying and specifying, their daily fucking bread. Hardly out of the ordinary open to interpretation provision.

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TheTimeTravellersWife · 17/06/2011 17:27

They are not morons. They know the law, but think of the money that they save by not specifying and quantify in a Statement and how many parents do not realise.

I am drafting my response to the SEN Green Paper; never mind wishy washy hand holding mediation - I am going to suggest that the Tribunal should be given powers to make an award of costs against unreasonable behaviour by LEAs, such as those who drag parents all the way to Tribunal, just so that they can save 6 months money, by not specifying provision in the Statement!

TheTimeTravellersWife · 17/06/2011 17:30

Just had another thought Star, you went to Tribunal last year, so presumably the Statement from the Tribunal was quantified and specified, so why have the LEA changed this one? Can you not tell them that you expect the Statement to follow the format of the one from the Tribunal decision?
And if they won't agree, ask them to explain why!

direlahere · 17/06/2011 18:11

Good idea timetravellerswife and how about tribunals also having the power to ensure that the LAs implement what is in the statement and agreed at tribunal instead of parents having to go to JR to actually get what is put in the statement?

moondog · 17/06/2011 18:42

9-5, I think you should read what I say a little more carefully.

' Most if it is a complete waste of time for kids with ASD.'

I'll send you some interesting stuff on this.

tryingtokeepintune · 17/06/2011 19:01

Moondog, may I know why most of SALT is a complete waste of time for kids with ASD?

Star - I really hope you won't have to go to tribunal again.

TTTW - At least if the LAs do not do what they are supposed to, you can take them to JR or use the LGO. Agree about cost and unreasonable behaviour. However, right now the thing that irritates me is that there is no one to hold schools accountable for their behaviour - other than the Governors who always seem to be on the school's side.

moondog · 17/06/2011 19:16

Because it fails to take into account that many kids with ASD are not reinforced by social niceties and praise.

Because it is not closely plotted enough- many tasks need to broken down into tiny steps and worked upon.

Because it is not generally data driven but relies on inaccurate and unreliable personal opinion.

Because it does not make use of the wealth of evidence as to how best to meet the needs of kids with ASD.

Because it forms part of an ill thought our raft of 'eclectic provision' which often serves to do nothing more than frighten, irritate and alienate the people
who really matter-those who are spending most of the day with the child, so either parents or school staff.

appropriatelytrained · 17/06/2011 19:26

I completely understand when you say:

"Because it is not generally data driven but relies on inaccurate and unreliable personal opinion."

I had a massive battle with school and S&LT yesterday because they seemed to think it was acceptable to review progress through the SENCO's report back. No records at all were kept for one of the targets and there was no conversation with the TA who had been delivering the provision as they'd organised it on her day off.

I had to argue for proper recording of specific tasks and argue really vociferously for recording to be as objective as possible and more than 'I think he's been learning lots of idioms'. 'Would that be 100% success to record then?' says S&LT.

I think if done properly, then S&LT has a lot to give but this is dreadful. S&LT says it's not her job to tell school (a) what training TA needs (b) how to record progress (c) assess whether targets have been met. That's for school Shock

She may as well just have picked up the phone and said to the senco 'is it going ok, shall I tick him off the list?'

I have got them to agree to record actions taken and make targets more measurable and actually do some baseline assessments.

And now I've demoralised everyone......!

On your other post, Star I would worry for you if your school is being this difficult already. Being somewhere where you are not wanted is a daily living hell.

StarChartEsq · 17/06/2011 19:53

My ds will be fine there. They hate me not him. They are a switched on school making lots of noise to the LA about not wanting more of their failed children. They are the best MS school in the county for SEN AND attainment. They can whinge for two years we can collect evidence. We can finally get ds into an independent school as recommended by Ind EP as them not coping means none other can.

In the meantime dd will have got her sibling place. FGS she deserves something from this crap.

And LA, I don't give a shit if you're reading.

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appropriatelytrained · 17/06/2011 20:00

Sounds like you have a plan!

So many schools see SEN as catch up numeracy/literacy only. Do they have experience with ASD.

StarChartEsq · 17/06/2011 20:07

Yup, the even have a couple of kids doing ABA as well as a couple of TAs that work pt as ABA tutors and the Senco knows what the he'll ABA is. But she is stressed. ABA parents means hard work for her. ABA parents that lost their tribunal means hard work bitter parents and the worry of ABA influx. I can see why they're whinging tbh. Their whinging strangely gives me confidence in them. If I'm wrong, they can jolly well support our independent placement when ds is 6 and old enough to attend the good asd ones.

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working9while5 · 17/06/2011 20:20

Moondog, my point relates I suppose to distinguishing between SLT and what it can offer in the truly global sense and what is offered as service here in the UK which is very limited.

My understanding of services in the States for example is that it is very data driven etc and there is a lot of emphasis on reinforcement even in non-ABA settings etc. That's the impression I get from a lot of the research I read etc.

I think it's a systems failing rather than an SLT failing as such, but the research on this side of the pond reflects the service delivery model here iyswim. If you read any serious case study you see very detailed assessment and details of intervention and outcome etc but this is not translated into practice.

I am also interested more generally in research being done on language acquisition in different clinical populations, the mechanics of nonverbal communication development and social interaction (e.g. Brinton and Fujiki's stuff on how kids get access to ongoing interactions a few years ago is something I often think about when I see how young typical kids manage this skill etc), the development of conversation, narrative e.g. into how SLT can inform parents/carers/school staff about typical development and how it varies.

As a random example there's really interesting stuff on how gesture precedes the development of two word phrases in typical toddlers with gesture beginning to combine with words into a single system between 2-3. This is really gaining a body of research literature behind it. I'm really interested in whether this is something that should be looked at/targeted
in ABA programmes as there is some evidence from adults with autism that gesture can slow speech comprehension in ongoing conversations and it tallies with my clinical observations and what students have told me about hands being distracting.. the ABA evidence is that the development of imitation is a core skill and this seems to link to this but there is still more work to do! All the discrete behaviours that underpin joint attention development need so much research so we can understand them better and how they link together so that they can be appropriately targeted.

So I know you were talking about SLT intervention as such Moondog but I suppose I want to make the case that there is still a role for the profession (vs perhaps current service delivery), that there is value in having a background that takes account of non-behavioural research on speech and language, and for development of other theories of speech, language and communication that go beyond the behavioural and link to typical development and where ASD differs..... even if the evidence is pretty unequivocal intervention needs to be designed and implemented in a particular way.

A lot done, more to do? I know people have horrendous experiences with what SLT is in this country but that's really the tip of a large iceberg of what SLT can be.. and I just wanted to point that out because I suppose people's experiences can make it seem that SLT is all so much waffle because.. well.. that's how it is being delivered in this country in many if not most public sector settings.

I will send you my email!

moondog · 17/06/2011 20:36

I love being an s/lt.
I wake up every day and look forward to going to work.
I work for a fantastic PCT and with a fantastic LEA.

S/lt has a vast amount to offer.
It could offer so much more.

I'm an s/lt through choice not need.
I am lucky enough to be in a position where I could do nothing more taxing than sit at home and drink coffee and paint my nails.
I don't.

Never forget that I am a parent of a communication impaired child as well as a 'professional'.
When people are let down and misled and lied to and harassed and disappointed, I know what that feels like.

working9while5 · 17/06/2011 21:00

I know you are a parent of a communication impaired child too.. I am not, but I do have close personal experience of people being let down and misled and lied to and harassed and disappointed by public services though I would prefer not to disclose why here. I have seen the long term consequences of communication impairment and subsequent mental health difficulties in my own family which influences my work and drives me to want the best for kids with communication impairment. I am an s/lt because I have a passion for this although hey, I need the money too. I don't think that makes me any less committed, nor do I think it means that my thoughts aren't relevant and I hope you don't either.

appropriatelytrained · 17/06/2011 21:16

I think you both assist many people on this board with your expertise and insights and are coming from the same frustrated position of witnessing the problems with your own service. But you are both incredibly honest about what you think and even if you don't always agree, you both care a great deal. That is greatly encouraging for parents.

I would not be able to challenge the inadequacy of my son's provision without you. You have made me informed, given me confidence and enabled me to reject poor practice.

I wish it wasn't so and it is incredibly difficult for parents to take on services but you help us do that. You really do.

I just wanted to say thank you.

Agnesdipesto · 17/06/2011 21:22

I'm sorry are they saying that modelling how to deliver a message is beyond what you can expect of a TA?

I put in my sen green paper that should be Sanctions our LA definitely use the appeal as a way to delay provision, by 18 months in our case. If
LAs had to backdate funding to the date you submitted the appeal and pay your private and legal costs that would cut down a massive amount of problems. I can't see much that will improve under the new proposals unless they make LAs follow the law and rules, then most problems would vanish overnight.

moondog · 17/06/2011 21:23

It's about sharing opinions and helping each other.
Really helping each other not just offering the nebulous yet ultimate empty 'support' beloved of so much of the public sector.

9while5 dazzles me with her insight and brilliance and anyone who has her as an s/lt has struck gold.

The parents on this board dazzle me with their persistence nad energy and the sheer effort they put into learning how to help their kids.

The MN SN board is a very important part of my life and I have learnt so much from it.

On that note, I am going to saunter upstairs with a glass of Sanceree and 'Little House on the Prairie' and read to my kids. Then I'm off to bed with a cup of Earl Grey and the Telegraph.

Rock 'n roll eh? Smile

StarChartEsq · 17/06/2011 21:23

That's what scares me Working - the mental health issues. That's ALL that scares me. I can deal with much of my ds's issues better than any professional we have real live access to buy his shite confidence-erroding state education I'm at a loss what to do about. It is SO stacked against him. HEd is never out of the equation but I would only consider that as the absolute last option because shared life experience with peers is something DS needs, not another thing to be unable to converse about.

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StarChartEsq · 17/06/2011 21:39

I have never met Moondog, but was lucky enough to meet a friend of hers who I told honestly after s couple of drinks that the day I started listening to her misery ensued as a result.
The inability to give up, give in, deny there is hope has not done much for my happiness. But I would have been worse if I had taken her Posts and workings and some others and ignored them.

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tryingtokeepintune · 18/06/2011 23:43

Thanks Moondog.

I suppose I found SALT input in school better than anything the school would have put in otherwise - not that the school did anything about SALT recommendations at the beginning. It was SALT who told that that ds had to be taught word like next, under, etc. and also who, what etc. If not for the SALT team, I don't know what ds would have learnt. The SALT team also gave me pointers and directions on where I should be working with ds. Admittedly, I then used the advice I gained from this board to help ds eg. breaking things down, data collection. I actually took Working's advice and asked SALT how to make the curriculum more accessible for ds by breaking down concepts and words into things ds can understand and work with him at home with great results - school was amazed at how well they were teaching him!

Oh, SALT said that ds should be working on making more complex sentences and recommended giving him 3 pictures and using conjunctions such as AND but ds just gives me perplexed looks so I have to prompt him. Anyone with any suggestions? (Sorry for the hijack Star).

StarChartEsq · 19/06/2011 17:29

trying feel free to hijack, - others have Wink

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moondog · 19/06/2011 22:23

Shw sounds great Trying. I would ask her for more guidance on this as it would be hard to convey in writing.

One cracking idea an MNer had a while backl was a game called 'Robot Mummy'. She pretended she was a robot (obv.) and didn't know how to do anytihng. So her child had to give her directions with even the most mundane of tasks.That's a goody for developing a narrative connected by 'first' 'and' 'then' 'next', 'last' and so on.

StarChartEsq · 19/06/2011 22:34

Oh brill, yes robot mummy. DS is at the right stage now to do that in a very basic way. Some times it can be good to return to the basics 'sabotage' and 'manding' but do more complex versions instead of inventing new complex solutions.

I always wonder about responding 'pen And paper' to those threads that ask what is the best piece of SN equipment too.

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moondog · 19/06/2011 22:49

Yes!
Me too.