S&LT battle - any S&LT advice

[appropriatelytrained]

OK. NHS S&LT therapist is suddenly appearing next week as Tribunal reports have to be filed soon.

She has never undertaken any assessments with DS but is wanting to measure progress. She has previously met DS once for half an hour to model a session for his useless TA.

He is supposed to get S&LT visits a year. 3 of them (including this one) have already been used up without any sign of progress.

I have two problems:

(i) I really resent this woman appearing just because she has a report to do when she has not worked with my son, trained his TA or offered guidance on how targets are to be measured/ work recorded etc. She will just be saying 'yup indirect therapy going fine'

(ii) bloody stupid TA is a lying cow who is just interested in making herself look good. One of DS's targets is to encourage communication with adults. We got our own S&LT involved who organised with her how she is to do this e.g. send DS on messages etc. She has done absolutely nothing. I know cos DS liked the message stuff when it started but tells me he hasn't done this for weeks

LA have recently had their application to add a senior S&LT to their witness list for Tribunal refused so this is getting very heated.

I really hate the thought of them putting DS through assessements just to fix them for Tribunal purposes when they couldn't bother to assess him before. It will only go one way because they have already decided what they are going to write. I wish I could tell them to f* off.

I want advice on what kind of questions I can ask about how progress should be recorded and monitored and how I can deal with the inevitably lying TA and the S&LT's failure to bother to train or advise or even appear to assess before.

Have done!

Oh frig it....

I've got a PDF of Communiation Quality. I acquired it through legitimate means and those means bind me to no restrictions on whom I pass it on to.

If anyone else wants a copy, PM me your email address. I can't promise I'll deliver in a timely fashion but you'll get it.

'Communicating Quality' - obviously!

AT
I just wonder if you are tying yourself in knots and the best approach may just be to let her come in, do her thing, give her as little info as possible eg she has to rely on info from the useless TA and then pick holes in it with your team once you have the assessment

If she is in effect going to make up a load of old anyway, I would give her just enough rope to hang herself but be wary of giving any info about what you are working on privately / have put into effect as she may just rewrite her notes to claim credit for it

I know its hard to let these idiots access to your child, but on the positive side it means they will serve a report before tribunal telling you what their arguments are going to be and giving you time to come up with all the evidence which shows they are lying. You and your team can give oral evidence on the day remember.

I am worried you are going to burn out before the big day. I think you need to take a breather now so you can hit the ground when the last minute evidence comes in.

Do not lose sight of the fact your know this case and your DS a million times better than they do. And you have all the evidence which shows you have had to put private support in because she has not done her job and the current provision is not meeting need.

Great news the senior SALT got refused!

Top tip on tribunals (from someone who sits on the panel!) is to come up with a list of the 5 main points you want to get across on the day

Do not leave the room without saying those 5 things

There will be much you will not get to say and often lots of time wasting (by LA rep) goes on and loads of detail will not be discussed. So I think you need to not get too caught up in the detail but concentrate on ramming your main points home. You want to keep the emphasis on the key points and not let things go off track into debates about guidance etc, the Tribunal will just want to know 1.what your DS needs are, 2.what progress (or lack of) made and if this is adequate for his particular profile, 3. whether need being met currently, 4. if not are LA offering more, and if so will that meet need, 5. if not will your suggested provision meet need. Remember a Tribunal can use their own expertise and order something different to what either party have asked for.

His other top tip was that there are times when you should 'keep your powder dry' and not give too much away and I would personally not be giving her anything useful to work with, let her have to come up with something in a vacuum eg 'forget' the home school book that day, let any private SALT Notes not be available. She does not know your DS, that puts her at a huge disadvantage to your team and you certainly do not want to be filling in any gaps for her. Chances are the Tribunal will make her 'go first' when they are questioning witnesses so she cannot piggyback on anything your SALT may say.

They cannot actually fix the assessments - tests are tests and it would be rare for them to actually lie about the test results, however they will of course try and interpret them creatively.

Good to find out what tests they plan to do though so if those tests do not appear in the report you know they were not helpful to them.

Thanks Agnes. I appreciate what you say and I understand what you mean. I've instructed an advocate for Tribunal. I just couldn't do this myself. I'd strangle them!

But the problem is, I have to live with this daily in the meantime. Being lied to, daily, by school, the LA, the S&LT, having some crap TA deal with DS daily, and I can't bear it. I am so, so angry.

I am trying to leave it to the advocate we have both instructed as I know I am losing the plot but we have a S&LT working with school on this and working collaboratively with the NHS S&LT so we can't really 'keep the powder dry' that much. I have no choice but to sit there in meetings and discuss 'progress' as well as letting him be assessed. I have to say what I think is happening. I have to be seen to try and work with them and our S&LT (who is not the S&LT who will appear at Tribunal) has to be seen to try and problem solve with her.

I understand what you mean about it all, I do. But I have already said my bit to them because I can't let them get away with filing a load of old lies. They'll be trying to ascertain if he has improved, for example, in talking to people. That is subjective. So I'm trying to point out the problems now. Particularly when we're talking about something like delivering messages to people. I can't really sit there at a meeting and not challenge the fact that he isn't even doing it and the TA doesn't know what she's doing but raise that all at Tribunal. I have said what I think they should be doing to meet his needs in accordance with their own guidelines. They won't do it. They will make some excuse as to why they didn't do it. But at least it's been said.

At least I can say, 'look, I'm trying to make this work, why won't you work with me'. I've been saying this all along and they've ignored me. They can't now turn the clock back and pretend they've been seeing him for the last four months or pretend they've trained the TA when they haven't. These are not gaps they can fill. How could I not have pointed this out when I have to sit in meetings on these things?

As for assessments, it's not that straight forward. The problem with pragmatic/AS stuff is that the assessments can be very vague and informal and from what I have seen very subjective and variable. It's not like CELF where you get a specific score. I would like to know what she is doing and she should be able to explain herself

So, yes, you know I am going mad and burning out but it is with an anger that will make me take these f*ers to the wire.

Sorry, I am not challenging what you say, you are right. I have someone else to handle this and I will try to let them but I have to live it on the ground at the moment and I cannot let these people assess my son without pointing out that they have no objective material on which to base their bloody assessment.

I'm sorry. That probably sounded ungrateful and you are trying to help.

But I can't take a breather. My son goes to school daily and I get dragged into stuff daily. I have no choice. Not a day goes by without some crappy problem or other.

They've forgot to tell him about a trip, or his TA has refused to help him at lunchtime or he's freaking out about some little worry that no one is helping with, or he still hasn't got some of the provision in his statement even on school's own timetable. I wish I had a choice but what can I do? It's a constant, daily grind.

Also, don't you think, if you don't pick up these things and record them as you go, you leave them open to saying 'it's all been working wonderfully'?

AT, can't speak for Agnes but I should imagine she does know exactly how you feel. I certainly do.

This probably won't make you feel heaps better but it might a little to know that all that stuff you wrote isn't and hasn't just happened to you only. It isn't personal. They aren't treating YOU like shit. They've done it before and they are doing it again, around the country.

Not all the time, and not to all people, but there really are enough of us here with stories like yours so try really hard, however angry you get, to understand that it is their day-to-day job. They aren't being vindictive especially planned towards you, it has happened over a period of time and they have got away with it, and it is written into their line-management plans and it has become accepted practice iyswim.

TA, If I learned one thing from tribunal it is to leave some pieces of evidence to read from/give verbally on the day, that the LA don't know is coming.

Thanks. I know, Star you are right. They are this crap to everyone! I also know that you guys have been there and done that as far as this malarkey goes.

But I don't have a nursery/school on side coming to school as part of 'my team'. DS's head is likely to try and tell Tribunal all is wonderful so I want there to be a paper trail of complaints for every bit of provision they have failed to put in place.

Likewise with the LA.

This much I have learnt - if you don't tell them x, y or z isn't happening. They use that as the excuse. You get the 'but why didn't you tell us, how could we have known, we would have helped'.

So I make sure they know. Funny thing is - it makes no difference. They still don't make sure the provision is in place.

I will, however, keep recording all the things they know about but are are doing nothing about: i.e. some statementing provision is still not in place even on their own admission, absence of training of TA, failure to undertake work on the targets, etc etc

You can't turn up to Tribunal and suddenly complain about all this.

TBH you can't turn up at tribunal and complain about much at all.

They aren't interested in how you've been treated, only whether the LA can make a convincing case that they CAN meet your ds' needs from now on.
Their dodgy history isn't supposed to affect this decision, but if you are clever you can allude to it (i.e. use their dodgy history as evidence that the current model simply isn't working for your ds due to an incoherent plan for which you have evidence - here), but don't waste much paper-work and time on all that because that won't be the basis of the decision.

The rest of it is LGO or possibly a JR. Sorry.

But this is not a complaint or about dodgy history. It is about evidence and I don't see how you can separate the two.

It is about not being able to say: we have a programme which is working when it isn't. You cannot make the Tribunal the first time you point that out.

The Tribunal will clearly want evidence of how current provision is working if at all. This is the purpose of reports: assess need, quantify provision, comment on progress to date under existing provision etc.

You cannot expect a Tribunal to hold a LA to account as that is the job of the LGO to avoid doing. However, you have no choice but to challenge provision which is not in place if it should be as this will form the basis of their assessment of both needs and provision.

It is not just an evidential issue, but one for your own child's sake. I cannot see what else you can do. Pretend that they have an effective programme running until you turn up at Tribunal

Oh no, I didn't mean that. I did as you did and challenged everything that needed challenging and formed a document trail. I needed to show evidence of my attempts to make things work, to ask question, to offer support. To be able to demonstrate my integrety at tribunal I had to show that I was only AT tribunal because I had tried literally every other way to get my child's needs met.

You're absolutely right to do that.

But I suppose what I meant was be very careful about limiting in your paperwork and evidence just the KEY pieces that make your case, not every blimming nasty thing they have done as evidence of their incompetence. The tribunal don't care how incompetent they have been, only whether they believe their promises to meet your child's needs from now on.

Thanks Star. Sorry for being so ranty but I just feel I'm living in a really kafkesque world at the moment not helped by DS's ability to moan and complain at me when he comes home and then to appear nonchalant to those around him at school.

I'm also desperate to hand this over to the 'professionals' to sort out with some objectivity but no one ever seems to ring/email/get back to you when they promise. So I'm left trying to sort out day to day crap in my ranty frame of mind!

at Not at all. Not for one minute. I think Agnes has recognised your 'ranty' style as a run-up to tribunal mindset already. You get a completely different take on life. It is so unbelievably stressful and yet the crap still happens, even in the run up. You'd think they;d be wary, or at least try and give the illusion of appropriate provision, but they don't.

I'm not sure why. I think it is because you are just one parent. Just a job. Can't be arsed to change the status quo for a parent they have been told is never satisfied whatever they do, or has unrealistic expectations for their child, or has middle-class-elbowed extra provision for their child when Bobby clearly needs support but isn't getting it. It's like moving a bloody elephant to even get them to recognise you have half a point.

Thanks Star. You have hit the nail on the head as usual!

The worst thing is, I spend so much of my time sorting out these things for DS, I have so little time to spend with DS.

I also find myself frustrated with him as he gets so stressy after school and worked up about things and then wouldn't say boo to a goose in school. I feel myself saying to him 'why don't you tell people this in school - say no to them, not me, tell them you don't want to do PE, not me' and then getting increasingly angry with him, even though I know it's not his fault.

He did say to me at the weekend - 'sometimes I am less stressy in school but that's because you've sorted lots of things out for me to make me less stressed mummy'. How bad did I feel then?

'The worst thing is, I spend so much of my time sorting out these things for DS, I have so little time to spend with DS.'

God I know how that feels and boy do I resent having given THEM the last 2 years of my life instead of ds. But if you can, try to think of it as gaining a qualification. You are learning names, how systems work, how education works, how school works, what to quote, where to find documents etc. There will come a point when you KNOW this stuff enough to not have to spend the hours researching, considering wording, nights awake formulating arguments or composing letters. Sure you'll still have to do them, but it can become a lifestyle and impact less than it does now.

Not sure if that is any comfort tbh, because no doubt you want an END to it, not someone telling you you'll just get better at it. But, that's the reality, and a tribunal win won't take it away, just give you a bit more leverage/backing for the arguments you'll still have to make. I don't know of a single case where a LA who has lost to tribunal has not then implied that they believe they should not have lost.

I'm not trying to depress you or cause you anxiety more than you have already but I'm really seconding what Agnes says in that you need to be careful about burning out. You need to be able to survive a tribunal ruling against you too should that happen because unfortunately you can have all the evidence in the world but the SENDIST process is not a rational one and the system is stacked against parents from the outset. If that does happen, you need to have the strength to beaver along collecting evidence again.

I didn't fall apart after losing mine but I probably should have done given the amount of work and preparation that went into it. I KNEW I would win. I KNEW it. It was the most straighforward case of gross neglect ever in the history of SEN provision, with evidence spilling over into France. It was so obvious that my ds would make no progress in Nursery without what we were asking for (which has happened) and yet.....

But you will have to keep going after the tribunal, hopefully with a win to lessen the burden, so try hard to take care of yourself now.

Thanks Star. I know exactly what you mean but I don't know how to put that into practice. I have two meetings already lined up this week which are going to be contentious and difficult and that's on top of managing whatever daily crap is thrown my way.

Then next week, we've got reports being filed........

So, how I don't know how not to get burnt out. I really don't. I'm trying to focus on just the important bits but with meetings with S&LT, statementing provision not even in place after 5 months, a nightmare TA and a stressed out son....what do I leave out??

Well, you can start by refusing to attend any meeting that doesn't have a clear agenda, aims and objectives.

Ask in advance for the agenda and the purpose of the meeting plus what the hoped-for outcome will be. Without any of this being clear the meeting will most likely decend into a circular argument with a plan for another meeting whilst your ds is continuing to be failed but whilst the 'professionals' are logging 'time' against your ds' name.

Meetings are not intervention and meetings are not outcomes. You can state this in your refusal to attend making it clear that you do not expect said 'meetings' to be logged as provision your ds is getting (oh how LA's love to do this).

'So, how I don't know how not to get burnt out. I really don't. I'm trying to focus on just the important bits but with meetings with S&LT, statementing provision not even in place after 5 months, a nightmare TA and a stressed out son....what do I leave out??'

Yes I know. I DO know - honestly. I remember feeling exactly as you do now but I don't right this minute so that might be the only hope you have, but it is some.

At one point my DH gave me a morning a week for DS crap (outside of meetings etc.) and told me that was my lot. He wasn't being cruel and no it didn't work but it was a step in the right direction and gave me some permission NOT to be thinking/typing/ranting 24/7.

Good idea. Meeting (1) this week is S&LT appointment/assessment that has got me so ranty and meeting (2) is with head following my concerns about TA and lack of provision.

Still waiting for S&LT to get back to me once she's figured out what she wants to assess!

Is the SALT assessment for the purpose of showing that your ds has made good progress with current provision?

Our SALT assessment recently was for the purpose of claiming that all ds' speech and language problems were no more and that all his difficulties were in 'communication' which is an ASD thing and therefore untouchable by SALT. Grrrrrrr.

Is it the unknown of it that is stressing you? I.e. what the agenda is, you knowing what mood you are praying for your ds to be in at the assessment etc etc.?

And btw, there is a difference between presenting ability in a 1:1 assessment and using language functionally in the classroom.

If you get a high score for 1:1, then your arguement is for SALT in the classroom to generalise, use skills with peers etc.

Yes, you are right. I think it is about using this language functionally too as if he won't tell you things, how do you know if he has a problem? We have had years of this attitude - 'he looks alright to me'.

S&LT says she is doing the Test of Pragmatic Language (TOPL) and some Speech Bubbles (Black Sheet Press Resources) so again, not sure if there is any testing of functional skills there. It will be 1:1 with the S&LT

But I am getting stressed because we have a dreadful TA who feels that saying something is difficult for him means that she is rubbish, so she glosses over everything. When they go through targets etc, I know it will come down to be having to say she is not telling the truth as she has not been doing the work she promised to do.

What a great day to look forward to!

I think your strength is the personal pertinent anecdotes that make DS problems sound real. Thats what I mean about not educating them too much about DS because your team will be the only ones who can give real examples. they will be vague and generic.
So for eg our man on the panel said come up with a list of examples because often he will say what you do mean by difficulties with x and then you give an example, and then he would ask for another eg and another one, so he could sort of check out the evidence and that it was a real significant problem and not just a one off; so go with a list of egs
When the Tribunal is faced with two plausible stories - and they will come up with something plausible - our LA made a really good attempt at making us sound really offensive parents - that it will be your story that will check out on the detail
Thats why I was just a bit worried you might be giving too much away.
Is there any way you can cut down meetings between now and tribunal?
I know its not easy. I was grinding my teeth every night until I had major problems with my jaw in the weeks before tribunal so this is very much do what I say not what I did!
Having the advocate on the day to stop you losing your rag is well worth the money!
Is your DS going to give evidence?
We were quite lucky in retrospect in that all services pulled out 5 months before tribunal and we didn't have to deal face to face with a single professional. But be aware they will all be meeting behind closed doors to cook up their case.
Wish I could fast forward for you and it would all be over