Panorama - Learning Disability Hospital abuse

[BakeliteBelle]

I know it is on AIBU, but why no debate on here? Did anyone watch it?

I forced myself to watch it because one of the factors in abuse of people with learning disabilities is the fact that good people who care, stand by and do nothing because they can't bear to believe it is possible.

I cried watching it and feel so utterly distressed that as my DS reaches 18, I won't be able to care for him at home because he is too challenging, but I can't bear the thought of what might happen to him away from us...

Too, too distressing. I want those bastards to be done for torture and find out what it is to be hurt and bullied and stamped on themselves.

What the fuck are LA's funding learning disability hospitals for anyway? They were meant to have closed years ago - why on earth are private companies receiving funding to open new hospitals? It beggars belief.

I won't sleep tonight

But most adult day care is paid for by the social services budget isnt it? My understanding was that these days social services pay their direct payments to the carer and they pay for the day care from that budget? (It had been cut to 3 days instead of 5 though where my friends adult dd lives)

I'm a bit out of the loop Roger.
I tell you though after watching that horrendous program I wanted to go back and work in care. I think I was a good carer and I felt so helpless and useless witnessing that horror. I feel with 20 years experience I would like to go back in a monitoring or training role.
Got a little one to get to nursery/ school first but I am for the first time in ages wanting to get involved in work again.

:(

Oh Roger.. let there be some good news soon.

Hey don't worry though everyone cos we've at least got a spare 814 million to give away...
They specified the 14 million just now on the radio. It wasn't mentioend earlier, they just rounded it up to 800 million. I suppose cos 14 million is not a lot of money in the greater sceme of things. BUT what difference could it make to carers I wonder?
Maybe provide some respite perhaps?
You're right twoboys about the CB, I must admit I never gave it a thought myself. perhaps they will take into consideration those with SLD children? We can but hope eh!

I know that this probably won't be a popular post but the reference to the Cameron's has made me think.

They may well have had more support than the rest of us on a day to day basis and they may not have had the extent of stress and struggles that we share but they have sufferred the initial loss of a child born without disability and the later loss of the disabled child they clearly loved and I think it therefore unfair to think that this would equate with them having no personal understanding of loss and despair.

I am sure the Cameron's would have given up what they have materially in exchange for more time with their lost son and whilst politically I don't have much time for David Cameron or his policies, as an individual family I believe that they deserve our compassion and understanding no matter what their role in public life is.

Never would I have thought I would find myself advocating compassion for a tory prime minister but I just think it could be so hurtful to have comments made about such a difficult personal circumstance. Compassion surely should extend beyond political persuasion and I guess the political challenge for David Cameron is to also show compassion for the neglected and chronic underfunded services that we are dependent on to meet our childrens' needs. In line with the initial reason for this post he also clearly has a huge public responsibility to clean up services that are harmful and abusive to the vulnerable in our society.

I hope I don't offend anyone by offering this viewpoint, that isn't my intention.

Not offended Dire and of course as far as suffering personal loss goes, yes they have been through the mill. To lose a child is IMO the greatest despair and I would never under estimate the pain this causes forever (I also have friends who have lost children, one only 3 yrs old and a little angel). It is something I can only hope I never have to go through (I nearly lost my eldest just before Christmas, it still haunts me)
BUT despite that, he should have a better or clearer understanding of what everyday carers go through and yet he doesn't seem to 'get it' (Rivens story in the Guardian highlighted this for me) when he admitted he didn't really understand the difficulties.
We have yet to see him actually do any cleaning up. If/When he does I will be the first to applaud him but until then I won't hold my breath.
But you make a very valid point and I am humbled by your insight.

Ooh, I like being agreed with!
I didn't watch the programme but I suppose the hospital setting for people with learning disability could have a role but not as someone's permanent home. A friend's DS, who has AS but also mental health problems, had to be sectioned and put into a secure unit for a short time of crisis until a suitable placement could be found. She had a hell of a time finding somewhere to take him when he was regularly threatening to kill her and his sister, what would they have done without a place like that? Mind you, it was short term luckily as they had no idea how to occupy the "residents" for any length of time which just made them more anxious.
A little story I would like to share. A disabled man has moved into a house 2 doors down from my sister. I'd say he is about 40 or so, he lives alone with a team of carers, presumably with some sort of individual budget. He is deaf, has learning disability and is dx with schizophrenia (although as an experienced lay-person I wonder if its misunderstood challenging behaviour). My sister's 15 year old DD thinks he is great (she has some insight obviously) and he is very friendly but not inappropriately, he wanted to hug her but she has taught him to shake hands. Other neighbours are friendly and supportive to him. BUT.... there are a small number of neighbours who do not want him there, they are probably scared of him and they are just bloody ignorant. They have told lies about him, behave like he's got the plague when they see him and have either spoken to, or maybe just threatened to speak to, the Police about him (I'm not quite sure). My sister and her husband are ready to stand up for him and not let these people drive him out. The nasty neighbours have said things like he's been hanging around outside schools (lies), he makes too much noise etc. To all intents and purposes this arrangement is working well for this man and his family/carers, they have no idea what is being said. So does it matter in that case? Would you like it to be your child or relative this is happening to, although in reality nothing is actually "happening" at the moment. It stinks, I don't want my DS in that situation, whether he or we know it or not.

That is so sad Davros. That man should be able to live in peace in his local community without ignorant people spreading lies about him. Would it be worth speaking to your local police/ community support officers about harassment of this man? Maybe get in articulately and strongly explaining how awful these people have been. I guess this would be difficult if the man's parents are not aware of abusive behaviour? Are carers aware? They must be. Very difficult situation as it needs dealing with but not escalating. It would be terrible if this man is driven out of his house by ignorant people. Makes me sad and furious. Glad you and others will stick up for him. Good luck.

Davros, would it be possible for some friendlier individuals (such as your lovely niece) to talk to these ignorant ones along with the man so they can see he's not a threat?
Shouldn't have to cowtow to them I know but if it helps him live happily might be worth a shot.
I don't know.
The home where my daughter n son in law work is 35 miles away. It used to be opposite where we live! (they didn't work there then) They had to move for various reasons which was a shame. But I know the people next door moved cos of the noise (their house has been empty for about 2 yrs now) but my daughter said to be fair that a couple of residents are incredibly noisy! The people next door didn't have a problem with the young residents but it was simply the noise issue.
Your situation with your sisters neighbours sounds much more serious and needs to be kept a close eye on.

Also -the hospital setting you describe Davros does not sound great. It sounds from what you say that this man was sectioned to somewhere that was not fit for purpose. If it was like Winterbourne View heaven help him and thank goodness it was not permanent.

I do appreciate Davros that somewhere had to be found for the man that was sectioned for his safety and his families - just finding somewhere offering appropriate support. Tough one....

People are just ignorant davros :( A friend of a friend lives next door to a home which houses adults with severe learning disabilities and she tried to sell her house at one point and couldn't because of the home (they are not even attached to it, only the garden) and even she says that they are the easiest, least offensive neighbours she has ever had!

It is frightening that such ignorance (which often turns to hatred through fear of the unknown) still exists.
At one point some yrs ago the council were trying to close the boys school and amalgamate it with the 'normal' school next door, something which us parents were against for obvious reason. However a couple of parents from next door opposed it as they didn't want their kids mixing with or getting beaten up by our kids!!!
Such lack of knowledge, beggers belief. If any one would've been hit it would've been our kids by the 'normal' ones! I know my own two wouldn't know what to do if someone picked on them, they'd hit themselves first!
I personally would love to live nxt door to a house l;ike the one u describe Roger. Imagine knowing that each morning when you're in your garden you're gonna get a little face or two pop over the wall with big smiles to say Hi. Better than the miserable git I got on one side of me who looks like Steptoe!

Just for info, my friend's DS who was sectioned, as it was the only mechanism that would work, was only 16 years old at the time.

My sister's neighbour is living happily to all intents and purposes, this goes on behind his back, trying to undermine him at least and spread lies at worst. My sister, her DD and other neighbours always make it clear that they do not have any problems with the situation, in fact they really like the dear disabled man and they never agree or even let go the comments of the nasty neighbours. My sister is very prepared to speak to Police, Community Officer, carers etc, in fact I'm not sure if she already has or where things are at right now. I suppose my point is that, even when something "appears" to be working and all is pleasant, it may well not be and that would be enough to worry me about my DS being in the same situation.
Also, if every disabled adult in the UK wanted to live in their own home with their own team of carers, I can't see how that could be sustained in practical terms.

RogerMelly....that makes me anygry and sad. It's the worst kind of discrimination. Effectively ostracising people because they're different. I know it sounds a bit extreme but, all those years ago in Germany, the "unwanted" were made to wear a badge and/or put away, out of public view.

I find this ignorance and lack of tolerance really scary.

My son is NEVER the one to namecall in the park yet other kids, within earshot of their parents have called my ds "weird" and told him to go away. I once had a go at a young girl (maybe 12 or so) for telling him to go away when he tentatively advanced to play with a small group of kids. You should have seen her mother drop her fag and come racing over to "protect" her daughter from the nasty woman (me).

How can ignorance be tackled? I find it scary that part of a carer's role supporting someone in the community might be to protect them from members of that community. How wrong is that?
It seems wrong that someone may not be able to live in an ordinary house with support for that reason.
How do we deal with disfunctional/ fearful/ignorant neighbours?
Thank goodness for the good neighbours.
It seems that some feel that people with learning disabilities who wish to live supported in their community have no right to be there - that they are lesser/ inferior and should be hidden from view.
That is how places like Winterbourne View can exist. [Perhaps some people- the minority I hope- would rather not know/ don't care what goes on in these shut away places].

The flip side of the coin is that sometimes, as we all know, people with learning disabilities and mental health problems look and behave 'strangely'. This can alarm people. I am sure my son scares people when he lashes out at them. It is my job to try to prevent this happening and to explain to people how to approach him (or not) so everyone stays safe. These support workers need to take on this role of putting people at their ease and introducing the person they care for to a community that has not grown up seeing people with disabilities. If the community continues to be prejudiced, there are discrimination laws and they should be exercised.

If someone makes loads of noise, why are they placed somewhere - e.g., a terraced house or flat - where they disturb the neighbours? It is totally inappropriate housing IMO. Same with some poor fucker with autism who needs space/trampolines etc., and is placed in a little flat with no garden. The environment is crucial and that is the one part of the old 'asylums' that probably really worked for some people.

Yes you are right Bakelite. You have made me think!
One house/ set up does not fit all. Thought needs to be given.
[Oh - by the way- there has been 'debate' on 'The Wright Stuff' about the use in language of the word 'retard'].

I read a book recently (Grace Williams says it loud) and although it wasa work of fiction, though based on a life experience of the authors sister, and it now fills me with dread that my child could end up in a similar institution. I think everyone watched aghast when Neil Morrisey recently covered the care homes kids story in Staffordshire in the 70s/80s and the amount of abuse that took place, it is disgusting to think that the institutionalised vulnerable within our society are still being abused. Of course the vulnerable are more at risk of abuse anyway, but safety measures that should be in place should put an absolute stop to it.

'You and Yours', Radio 4. NOW

either my child who has SLds has changed my sounds ettings or otherwise they all sound like elves :o

No, I don't think they are elves...!

I missed 'you and yours' - what was it about?

Care and support of adults and children with learning disabilities. You can listen again online