Been in tears, cornered by inclusion and teacher separately today and feel hopeless :(

[moosemama]

My morning started with ds's inclusion teacher calling to tell me that ds is basically not producing any work at school in literacy or maths and that in a maths test he did yesterday he wrote on the top that he was embarrassed to hand it in. When asked about it he said that he is hopeless at maths and does not deserve to be in the top set. This is my boy, who when asked what his favourite lesson was in infants, always said maths and was confident of his abilities in maths always sitting at the top of the top group with ease. In the test he completed 14 out of 20 questions and got 13 of them right.

His class teacher and inclusion teacher apparently discussed moving him down into the lower group to show him that he is not hopeless at maths and they wondered if being the top of the lower set might be be better for him than bottom of the top set. The thing is, until this year he was the top of the top set and he knows it, he has lost all confidence in his ability to do maths and a few weeks ago I actually asked him myself if he would feel happier in the other grou, which isn't so competitive, does the same work, but has things explained in more detail and more slowly. He became hysterical, sobbing that he'd been with his group since Reception year and didn't want to leave them and how he doesn't want to not see his maths teacher, as if he's not in his group he will never see him at all etc.

She also said that they are continuing to have problems with him not producing work in literacy, even on the Alphasmart. At most he produces a couple of sentences each lesson, even though he is highly capable.

There are other issues, eg his teacher insists he is being deliberately defiant and disrespectful and his inclusion teacher feels he is extremely unhappy and totally lacking in self-confidence with regards to school.

Then, I went to fetch him from school and his teacher asked to see me. We ended up in a classroom talking for about 40 minutes and going around in circles. She said he is currently performing at a low 3 so won't get a statement I told her that he was higher than a low 3 at the end of year two, which was now two years ago and that represents not 'no progress' but a clearl backwards slide. She tried to tell me that he is 'age appropriate' in his NC levels, 'so you won't get a statement' . I told her that NC levels are irrelevant, he is not making progress and is capable of much more and clearly his disability is preventing him accessing the curriculum effectively and I will fight the LEA if necessary, as you do not have to be 'behind' to require a statement - although he is in effect behind anyway, based on his capabilities.

Honestly, it was farcical and I ended up telling her that in my opinion, my son's mathematical ability and confidence have fallen through the floor during this academic year and it isn't a situation I am happy to let continue - if necessary, if the school refuse to provide him with the 1-1 support he needs I will de-register him and home-school.

I asked her what they are doing/going to do and she just gave me the old 'I have 30 other children to teach as well you know' line. So I asked her if she and the inclusion teacher don't know how to teach my child effectively in order for him to make good progress and have confidence in his abilities - who should I be asking? The answer 'I don't know - there isn't anyone'.

When I pointed out that he was fine up until year 2 and produced lots and lots of top notch work with no support whatsoever, she just said that the work is more challenging now. He has had testing done which shows that he is more than capable of high level achievement, yet he has been sliding backwards at an unbelievable rate.

So, I came home in tears, sobbed all over my Mum and now just feel hopeless. My son has not made any bloody progress for two whole years. They have watched him slide backwards, fail and lose confidence and done sod all about it, then turn around and say that there's nothing they can do about it and there's no-one else who can help either and that old chestnut 'he won't get a statement'.

Ironically, I was told by the inclusion teacher this morning that the new SENCO and head of the ASD Inclusion Teacher Team feel that they have got enough evidence to proceed to SA request and will be going over the evidence the school and I have got together this week, with a view to setting the wheels in motion asap.

I just want to take him out of that bloody place and home-school him. At the moment it seems like the only way he's going to get the 1-1 he needs to achieve his potential. When he works with me I am constantly amazed at his capabilities. If he can do it with me, then he can do it for them as well, but they seem incapable of motivating him. The thing is, despite all the problems he doesn't want to be home schooled, he wants to stay with his best friend and he has actually been making some good progress with his social skills and made a couple of new friends recently as well.

I thought we were starting to get somewhere with the school and they were actually starting to understand and work with us - obviously I was wrong.

AAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGG!!!!!

Thank you wendihouse22, you're absolutely right. It is a disgrace.

zzzzz I don't have a problem with supplementing his education, we already do a fair bit and he is genuinely interested in learning. Interestingly, dh and I have our suspicions that his teacher may well be on the spectrum herself, which is why she can't cope with SEN children in her classroom, because they disrupt the way she's always done things and she can't adapt. (Thanks for the honk. )

His inclusion teacher dropped round this morning with some paperwork, but by then I'd already fired off a very angry email to her, copied to her boss telling them I am going to de-register him unless something is done immediately. I made my feelings exceptionally clear and said I want an emergency meeting called. So, when she turned up this morning I told her what was in the email and she was shocked, she had apparently spoken to the teacher after our phonecall yesterday morning and the teacher assured her that she wouldn't be moving ds down a group in maths. Then two and half hours later she told me she was going to do it anyway!

I should explain the email wasn't directed at the inclusion team - it was more a plea for their help and guidance on the issue.

She agreed that we need a meeting and is going to get her boss to set it up as she has more sway than the rest of us.

Dh and I have just had a tricky conversation. He doesn't think I could cope with H Edding ds, partly because I have ME and partly I think because he's scared of it not working - ds and I do have a feisty relationship, but at the same time, I can bring out the best in him where others can't even begin to. I pointed out that ds is at his happiest working on a problem with me at home and as long as it was well thought out and planned it had to be better for him to do 2-3 hours of 1-1 work with me a day, plus some individual/self-learning stuff, than it is for him to be sent every day to a place where he is bullied, beaten up, made to feel worthless and doesn't atually learn anything. Dh was concerned about him losing the peer group social interaction, but I pointed out that he would be better off attending two or three clubs a week, where he has positive social interaction, than it is to throw him into a playground full of bullies several times a day and expect him to sink or swim.

HE, HE, HE!!!!!!

If you do 2 hours a day work with him at home 1:1 he will learn way more than he does in 6 hours at school.......

If you need to you can pay a teenager or someone to teach him play with him sometimes as well.....

And what about your mental health? No way will being at home be worse than sending him to school.....

There are loads and loads of ways to do social stuff. Why mix up social skills with learning academic stuff?

There's only a few weeks left now till summer. Why don't you try it now. And if it don't work you can always go back to school (full or part time) in Sep.....

Now, dh disagrees there Indigo, he seems to think my mental health will suffer if I have ds1 at home 24/7 and I kind of see where he's coming from, but as you pointed out, I would be so much calmer without all this school related crap and in actual fact, whenever he is off from school we have really nice quiet days - it only tends to get hectic when all three dcs are home and the two boys are exhausted from being at school.

My sister home eds her 10 year old - who ds adores. They live an hour's drive away, but I'm sure we could do somethings with them together and they could do the odd course/activity together as well.

Personally I feel it would fall down on the social side, mainly because I am by nature a bit of a hermit, so don't have much of a social circle and this is compounded by my not being able to drive.

I can't try it unless I have dh on board though and I have told inclusion and the school that I want a meeting to sort things properly or I will de-register him.

Ds's inclusion teacher actually suggested 'strictly off the record' that it might be an idea to keep him off next week, so he has a longer break over half term and we both get some breathing space.

The inclusion boss emailed me back and said that I was clearly misinformed by the teacher. She confirmed that the new SENCO is happy that they do have enough evidence to go for SA and that she is going in on Monday to talk it through with them before meeting with me again and agreed that we need an emergency meeting to agree what the school is going to do to support ds while the statementing process in underway. So, a glimmer of hope - but only a very tiny one.

I honestly can't imagine your mental health being worse with your DS at home.

Why don't you do everything:

• Take DS out next week and 'trial HE' - while telling DH you're just keeping DS off for a week because school suggested it.

• Keep selling DH on HE.

• Apply for SA (yourself obviously....)

• Keep all the meetings with school....

I have ME too moose and I actually found it less tiring/stressful to HE than taking ds1 to school that which he clearly hated and having him come home upset and distressed.

Dh was unsure of HE, as were most of the family actually. They have since seen the difference in him and my MIL (who didnt speak to me fo 2 weeks after we dreged him!) said not long ago "HE was the best thing you could have done"

Seriously, post on the HE boards.

If he is happier and learns better at home with you and if you think it will work, then go for it.

Agree with Indigo.

Keep him off next week as school have suggested and trial HE

Keep up with the SA

Keep up with meetings.

Fact is, if he is learning at home with you he wont need a SA!

Wrt the social side, look into Education Otherwise and check out HE groups in your local area....we met some lovely people.

Just sat and had a talk with ds about the possibility of homeschooling - lets just say it didn't go well.

He sobbed and wailed and became hysterical that he doesn't want to leave school, he likes his teachers and would miss them, he's finally being accepted by the other boys and is playing games with them in the playground etc etc.

I told him all about his H Eded cousin and how great its been for him, but still no joy.

Tried to talk to him about the problems with literacy and numeracy and all he would say is that he struggles in maths because the sums are too big and in literacy because "I've lost my imagination".

I asked why he doesn't even try to put pen to paper and he just restated that its because he struggles, so I tried to explain that he needs to at least try and put something down so the teachers can see the problem and help him to understand and he got really angry saying he does do his work and doesn't have empty workbooks. I asked him about why he only writes the date but not the WALT or any work and he says he forgets to write the WALT - this despite it being something they have always been taught to do on every piece of work since year 1. I asked him why he seems to be able to do the work if an adult sits with him and he said he just feels more confident if there's an adult with him.

It did transpire that the problem with literacy this week was a simple case of him taking the teacher too literally and that once it was explained properly he produced a large piece of work, but I'm not convinced that's always the case.

He tried to tell me that other than this week's test, he has been getting mostly 18s and 19s out of twenty, but I don't think I believe him, as the test sheets haven't been coming home and the last few I got a month or so ago only had around 12 out of 20 questions completed. He does tend to get all the ones he's completed right though, which begs the question - is it something to do with his slow processing speed (WISC result again) and if so, should he be getting extra time for these tests?

The other thing that came out of the talk was that fundamentally he thinks he's stupid. I asked him how he could possibly think that when every teacher he's ever had, his Mum and Dad and all the other professionals have all said what a clever boy he is and he just said "I don't think I am".

So, we are back to square one. He is adamant he doesn't want to H Ed and made all sorts of promises about trying harder.

Feels like we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

:( your poor DS.

I home-edded DS1 for about 6 months from the end of year 1 to October of year 2. When he left his esteem was in complete and utter tatters in just about everything. We moved house, and he went to a new school that suited him a million times better.
We made sure when we took him out that he had a friend for tea at least once a week. He also went to an OT group session, specifically to try and improve his self-esteem. They put him in a group of children who were worse than him at PE type activities to try and show him he was better. It didn't work initially, they ended up putting him 1:1 within the group, but after about 6 sessions, along with the home-edding where he started to realise he COULD do the academic work, his self esteem improved dramatically. He also went to a Boys Brigade club run by a SEN teacher where some of the friends from his previous school went.

Cross posted, was on the phone. Not sure HE would work if he was really anti.

I didn't say before, but there's definitely something up with ds at the moment as well.

First of all he's started noticing subtle facial expressions - he's not reading the right but he never used to even notice them. The other day he refused to kiss me goodbye because I had a sore throat and I pulled a face by in a comical way at dh. Ordinarily ds wouldn't notice that, but this time he did and he burst into tears. He said I'd pulled a nasty face. I explained that it was a funny face and that it just meant "I see, no kiss for Mummy tonight then" and he was ok afterwards.

Then dh brought the dogs in and ds hadn't seen them since last Thursday because he stayed at Mum's over the weekend. Just before he went to bed, he stopped by the dog, stroked her head and said "Hello, how are you, have you had a nice weekend? Did you get lots of balls to chase and some nice treats when we were away?" Dh and I were like he has never even noticed the dogs before, other than a brief interest in the pup we rescued when he was three. He normally just ignores them, as if he doesn't even know they are there.

Finally, he was chatting to dh the other night and said something about not having any 'special belongings' other than his DSi. I took offence at that - having just spent weeks sourcing rare pokemon and beyblade stuff for his birthday that any other child would give their eye teeth for and he straight away realised that my tone was cross/irritated and started to cry and said he didn't mean to upset me and that that wasn't what he meant. He then got disproportionally upset about it all and refused to calm down.

All verrry odd. Developmental leap? Omega Oils? Coming up to a year gluten free? All of the above? I don't have a clue, but as I said, there's definitely something going on with him at the moment.

In terms of moving groups, DS was in the top group when he was in Yr 3 (they have the same teacher for yr3 and 4) as the teacher could see he was very capable. He really struggled in the group and he was moved down to the lower table. He seems happier there, but he is now underachieving. Although I think in DSs case this is now due to him being easily distractable than low self-esteem.

With the literal language, I think that it is really easy to underestimate what an effect this can have, especially with a child who in general comes across as really bright. I never realised how literal DS was as he tried very hard to hide that he hadn't got a clue what people were talking about. In the same way that he laughed at jokes because everybody else was laughing, but had no clue as to why. It is only since dx and I talked to him about him being literal that he has started asking what things mean. When I have spoken to the teacher about how literally he is taking some things that are said in class she was completely stumped - because "he is so intelligent".

Ds is the same with the literal thing, you really wouldn't know how literal he is unless he gets caught out, because he's developed effective coping and camoflage strategies.

The literacy assignment this week was to do a concise piece of writing that they'd been preparing for since the end of last week. The teacher mentioned that he could use short sentences, as they could be just as effective as long ones. Ds took this to mean that they had to use short sentences in order to keep the writing concise - so produced two very short sentences and nothing else! Obviously the teacher meant that they should consider using both long and short sentences and how short sentences can sometimes be extremely useful and effective etc. She raised it with the inclusion teacher, who happened to be in that morning and they realised what had happened. Once she'd explained it properly to ds he managed to produce a proper chunk of writing on his alphasmart in a matter of minutes.

The problem with the maths group is that his best friend is top of the year and until this year, ds was right up there with him. So, not only would it be bad for his self esteem to move him down a group - he would also be separated from his best friend and that's something he really couldn't cope with.

ok, so HE is a no no.

My ds1 was ecstatic when we made the decision home ed, but all kids are different.

It does sound like the problem is the teacher and TA just dont "get" your ds and his needs and how to speak to him so he understands. He sounds a lovely boy and he deserves better from the teaching staff and LEA.

xx

Just wrote a really long post and my phone died! Some of it is irrelevent now.

Anyway, how long ago did you start taking the omega oils? My DS had a definite leap at about 6 -8 weeks. But he has always developed in big leaps and loooong plateaux.

On the difficulty in gauging children on the spectrum, the DC I support is really articulate, has a reading age on the standard tests above his chronological age, can spell really well, reads expressively in the correct context. But he is thrown by the simplest situations. He read a simple Language for Thinking activity this week. A brother and sisiter were playing hide and seek. The girl hid in a bedroom, in a wardrobe. The boy looked in the kitchen and the lounge and under the bed in the bedroom. The DC answered all retrieval of information questions correctly.

Where did the girl hide? In the wardrobe.
What room was that in? The bedroom.

Then I asked, 'Why didn't the boy find her in the kitchen?'

He replied, 'Maybe there were too many cupboards.'

So I tried to clarify. 'Why, if he looked in all the hiding places in the kitchen, couldn't he find her?'

He didn't know, he seemed to be trying really hard to read my mind so he could say what he thought I wanted to hear. Even though he knew the girl was hiding in the bedroom, he didn't know that she wasn't hiding in the kitchen.

The teacher just cannot understand why this apparently intelligent boy isn't making much progress in literacy. She just doesn't have time to spend 1:1 with one child for long enough to properly understand ASD. Without a statement, this intelligent boy would be making no progress at all unsupported in a MS class, where other DC have much more obvious difficulties even reading at all. He is not her priority. But he has so much potential, and with the correct support could achieve much. Even with his parents and the SENCo and my best efforts, his progress is still slow, but at least he is making progress.

He sounds so much like your DS, I had to share, I'm sorry if it's a bit off topic, but it might help to get you some ammunition for his statement.

Ellen, just checked my diary - we are in week 8 of taking the omegas.

My ds sounds very like your charge in his reading and spelling, he tested so highly in year 3 that they didn't have any more tests to give him. 12 1/2 - 13 at age 8 iirc. He has never had to learn his spellings, yet always gets either 100% or near as dammit in his tests and on his WISC test he was in the 95 percentile for verbal comprehension.

The comprehension you describe is not exactly the same, but similar to the things ds struggled with at his ADOS assessment. Dh and I were genuinely shocked at how difficult he found it and how far off the mark he was.

It does sound like both boys have similar difficulties, if you don't mind, I will mention this at the meeting to highlight the problem.

I've also had a revelation about his maths tests. He doesn't seem to be completing them. This week he completed 14 out of 20 and got 13 of them right. It suddenly hit me that the EP said his results clearly showed he has a slow processing speed, especially in relation to his overall intelligence level and that he should be given extra time in examinations as a result. During the assessment, he refused to give up and completed every subset, even if he was out of time. She put in the report that his determination to succeed is a huge strength and by doing so he proved that he is capable of achieving at a high level, as long as he is given enough time to do so. So, he obviously needs to be given extra time in his weekly tests for them to be able to see how much he actually does know and can do.

This afternoon, when he said he was hopeless at maths based on the above mentioned test, I pointed out to him that I would rather he completed 14 questions and got 13 right, than rushed, completed all 20 but only got half of them right and that proportionally speaking, he actually had a higher percentage of right answers than someone who completed all the questions but only got 17 or 18 out of 20. He definitely seemed to find that comforting and reassuring.

With a statement you get 25% extra time on all the SATs without having to apply, so I guess you can apply fir extra time without a statement for slow processing problems.

Oh Moose! Sending hugs too!
I haven't read all the thread but would suggest writting for a SA on the grounds that ds is not making the espected progress for a child of his documented ability and past record. We were constantly told ds would not get a SA - but eventually he did. This was due to not making progress ( he actually has mod/sev LD as well as ASD/ADHD- and has all along ).
Another thing to consider (once SA on the horizon) if funds allow might be a tutor or carer with empathy and patience to help support ds's learning. Obviously the best thing would be for school to provide an enlightened TA! However in the meantime -- rather tha home school can you home tutor? Ds is in a sn school with only 8-9 in the class but he only learns with a 1:1 ( which even in a sn school is not available) so having someone to tune in to his radar and show him his way ( in tandom with school so to speak) has helped him to make progress. Ds way is different to standard and his class mates - he needs to see concrete things especially mathematical concepts . I realise your son is very able but perhaps there is something that he struggles to visualise or conceptualise that needs putting into a concrete form or explaining differently? We came to this arrangement by accident in that we asked his afterschool carer (an ex teacher) to help teach selfcare skills and then later help with his homework etc) - it is only an hiour or so a week ( the rest is pick up/ tea) and it helps because it is tailored.
I considered HE at one point ( before the SA and SN school) but feared I would not survive it!

moosemama Don't be fobbed off by the fact that your DS's NC levels are fine. My DS (now 14 & dx with HF ASD at 7) got a statement in yr 2 for 25 hrs 1-1 support. He was always in top group for every subject, his reading age in yr 2 was off the reading scale and at end of yr 6 he left primary school with levels 5 in all 3 SATS subjects. His difficulties were with social skills, being unable to stay on task (partly because the work wasn't challenging enough and partly because he just couldn't control his behaviour) and generally needing encouragement to complete tasks from a TA - yes there were 36 other children in the class - so without a TA 1-1 he would have failed miserably.
He is now in yr 9, still in top set for all subjects but school currently considering trialling removing his TA support from the classroom to see how he gets on, as some of his teachers feel he doesn't need any support.
Without his statement, I don't believe we would be in this position now - in fact I think he would have been excluded from school or placed in a behavioural unit.
Do not be fobbed off because of your ds's academic ability. From what you say, his lack of progress is down to a crisis in his confidence probably brought on by lack of support from the teaching staff. My ds always said he hated and couldn't do maths but has just got an A grade in module 1 maths GCSE in yr 9.
Fight his corner and go for the statement.

Hi Magso and thank you. Dh has suggested a home tutor, but there's no way we could fund one at the moment. Also, I seem to be able to pick up why he isn't 'getting' something and explain it terms he can grasp much more than anyone else. If dh or my Mum try to do his homework with him, its a lost cause, so truth be told, we'd probably be better off if I do it myself. I actually enjoy it, as we don't get enough time doing things together 1-1 now that we have 3 dcs and there's a real sense of companionship that comes from working things out together - we kind of end up being proud of each other.

Bigbluebus, thank you. That's what the inclusion team are saying, that his social skills and lack of ability to get and stay on task are holding him back, so without 1-1 he simply will not progress, mainly because he won't get any work done. According to everyone - except the teacher he has Mon-Wed - he is not a problem behaviourally in class, in fact she is the first and only teacher who as ever suggested he is a problem. He has had inumerable classroom observations done and yes, they do all say he is wriggly and fiddly, but not one of them has reported his behaviour as a problem, none of them have found him to be disruptive to anyone else and no-one would describe him as having behaviour problems.

I won't be fobbed off by their attempt at an NC levels smokescreen. I know without a doubt that he will fail if he doesn't get 1-1 support and I'm not going to give in until he gets it. He deserves so much better than this.

I'll admit, I have had a huge wobble this week and felt like all the fight had gone out of me for a while, but the truth is I will always fight for him, if I don't, who will?

Honk :)

Good idea zzzzz! Now how to persuade dh? Oh, actually we don't have the cash either.

I went through the curriculum and NC level expectations online last night to help get a feel for where he needs to be and what he should be able to do, so I can tailor what we work on at home a bit more. I hadn't got as far as working out an A to B type plan, but that's a really good idea and I'm going to give it a go. I think we've been doing a bit too much firefighting, when we should have been building sound foundations and reinforcing the basics.

Dh drafted a letter to the school last night and I rewrote made some adjustments. We still weren't happy with it, but his teacher isn't back in until Monday, so we're aiming to deliver it first thing next week and have asked them to reply in writing before they break up for half term. Not sure if that's asking too much though, as they break up on Thursday afternoon.

I feel like I've done nothing but flap this week, mostly round and round in circles. I think its time to get in the slipstream and glide for a while, your advice and the advice of others on this thread and the SN board in general will help me do that. Thank you.

Honk

Honking with you, moosemama.

Moosemama, so sorry to read your thread. Especially when you were such a 'rock' to me the other week on my thread.
What are you thinking, at the moment, then ?
I too will have to apply myself to ds statemented, me thinks.