What would you call a parent support group that wanted to focus on outcomes and accountability?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Any ideas?

I would want to have high aspirations but to be honest it has to start small and steady and only really involve the papers and become a campaign when there's a story.

First it has to have a collect and widespread voice, otherwise it is just a few opinionated individuals. At that point I expect MN would WANT to be involved as that is where it began iyswim. They would also probably want to have an element of regulation by them, if their name is being used. We'd have to think about that too.

I'd try to ally myself to attempts to set up British version of BCBA as ABA is essentially nothing more than data driven outcomes.
A word of warning: don't asume that LEAs that turn down statement requests first time round are baddies.

Some parents and plenty of schools put in insanely unrealistic and pointless requests ( I speak as an insider).

Best way to go is to ask about out of country placements for kids and adults.Each represents a failure on behalf of LEA and SS to provide properly for their 'subjects'. It would be great bto put together a template and send out out to every LEA and collate the evidence. Each costs about 200 000 a year at a conservative estimate. They are run as private concerns.

I deal with plenty of people who have been through this, including, memorably, one young person (an able young person) who had been in such a place for 7 years, so we are talking 1.4 MILLION pounds.

Couldn't write 'cat', couln't read, add 2+2, didn't know how to tell the time, what day/month/year it was.

Yet he had been 'cared for educated' on a 1:1 basis for all that ime.
What the hell is going on???

you need to be careful about generalising () about all out of county placements, though (I know you probably meant residential ones, going by your costings and further statements)

dd1 is an "out of county" child, at a cost of £50k per year. But she is certainly being educated

all private SN schools are not equal (and don't I know it!)

StarlightMcKenzie

"I would want to have high aspirations but to be honest it has to start small and steady and only really involve the papers and become a campaign when there's a story."

A very good starting point, and probably the only long term approach. Because as you become more well known money interests try to seek your favour. This has been a big problem with running Auditory Processing Disorder in the UK (APDUK).
The program providers try many ways to get APDUK to endorse, or promote their pruduct, as the best way to help those who have APD. While some programs can help some who have APD, the programs lack any real neurological scientific research to specify the full nature of the neurological causes of APD are (still on the cutting edge of international research), how their program can help resolve some of these as yet undefined neurological issues (how to affect nueron performance and behavior in the brain), and whether their program will, or will not help or worse harm the neurological issues any child may have. All the program provide can say is that their program has been shown to work for some, but not all, and that they do not fully understand how the program works so it is only by trial and error that they can find out if their program works for your child. And sometimes the trial and error process can be expensive in both financial terms, and on the emotional state of your child.
The other problem is that these program providers close your mind to alternative options which may be the best options by their psuedo academic marketing, claiming that their way is the only way, and some well known NonProfit organisations are included here, as the program providers are their main sources of funding.

Silverfrog, 50K for a job well done is peanuts.
It wouldn't cost far off that anyway for the vregular package a child like yours wouod have, with disparate professionals dribbling in and out. (I think Star got the costs for this through an FoI request?)

The point Ii am making is there are many many people who are in out of county residential placements who are not getting an effective education. That is scandalous.

The point being of course that if they had a transparent evidence based data driven system of education they damn well wouldn't have to end up paying through the nose for someone else to mop up their mistakes.

I like Measure Up as a title. And mainstreaming ABA techniques has to be the long-term answer. But even the schools who are slightly receptive to an ABA type approach have to put up with utter drivel from those in authority.

My dd (?NT) went to an integrated playgroup with 1/3 of the places additionally funded for children with additional needs, most with ASD features. They had a clear structure to the morning, spatial division of similar activities, limited choices (you can do A or B), and a very effective old-fashioned 'instinctively' behaviouralist type approach to teaching table manners, handwashing and toilet use. Now, their practice was still far from perfect. With a few modifications they could have achieved so much more

Ofsted visited, congratulated them on their ineffective areas, and slated everything useful they did because it wasn't child led. The nursery responded, the kids slid backwards, and it's now much the same as every other EYFS clone setting. Plus the ASD kids now stick out like a sore thumb.

That's sickening.
But i think there is a growing recognition that 'child centred' learning has been bad for all kids. Iits origins were noble-noone wants to go back to the days when kids were terrorised and punished and humiliated. Something went horribly awry along the way and efforts to liberate and promote children's learning and confidence now, ironically, hold them back.

Katherine Birbalsingh is an inspirational teacher who has spoken out about this. I have just finished her book 'To Miss with Love' which is a thinly fictionalised account of teachnig in an inner city comprehensive. She electrified the Tory conference last october with a speech about her experiences and got sacked for her troubles as well as receiving the full wrath of the unions.

Now she is a columnist and has a great blog.
What is interesting about her is that she is a black left leaning woman, saying what all the right on types dare not say. Tragically it is all the right on types who are the worst possible enemies of these kids.

Sorry Moondog but we'll have to part company on Katherine Birbalsingh and after a second comment praising her, I feel obliged to post back.

This has nothing to do with what she says but her credibility in making such comments. Her school was not out of control but full of quite normally behaved children who she was quite happy to 'use' by breaching their confidentiality.

I've read articles on her, and articles with her talking and she is clearly little more than a very giddy, feckless woman who craves attention.

The 'right on' paper I read is confused by her more than anything else and I suspect she confuses herself. She's certainly no pioneer or great educational thinker. here

I don't know enough about KB to comment, but I do think challenge and accountability needs to stretch to all who are involved in provision for our children. It needs to be owned by the parents collectively not individual rebels.

That's why LA's have been so successful at failing our children, as they isolate parents and lie to them that a)all other parents are happy so it must be you, b)this is the first time things have gone wrong, c)no, there are no support groups here except for the LA run ones and we've closed most of them as there has been no demand.

Star agree with you on the point re: isolation. That is a charge not only made against the LA but schools too. Eg. school told me (last year) that my ds was hitting and kicking other children and he probably learnt about it from home - my teenage son probably taught him that because NOBODY in that school hits anyone! Well, I know it is blatantly untrue but difficult to prove without breaching confidentiality - just talking to other parents it is obvious that there were problems with other children in the class hitting, especially another boy. I had to shut down that argument by telling that that I saw the hitting and kicking incidents with my own eyes.

Also, the suggestion that the hitting/slapping other children on the back, when it first started, might be ds's attempt to play chase (he was never physically aggressive before) by mirrorring his peers' behaviour but not understanding the context of the play was dismissed outright.

Like the name Measure Up.

How about "Clear Expectations"

Outcomes is end result focused. So how do we get there? What do we do? What do we measure?

Accountability is responsibilities and who does what.

"Clear Expectations" can incorporate the end result plus the process of how we get there, and who is responsible for what.

Keep the jargon to an absolute minimum and don't use phrases that have been used again and again. Education is about caring and understanding the child. Don't use business jargon that may dilute this.

I've no doubt that KB is an attention seeker.
If her book is loosely based on her experiences, what comes across clearly is her need to let everyone know how wonderful her colleagues think she is.
It is, as the article you link to states (althoguh i don't take anything written by the Guardian seriously, least of all stuff on education) a confusing mix of fact and fiction that she seems to inhabit.

But I am interested in her as a counduit to greater discussions on what has gone wrong with education in general, and the fact that she is black, a woman and from a comprehensive makes her interesting.

I like her points about the way black kids are allowed to get away with murder due to the right on crowd worrying about being called 'racist', the fact that if they were in Jamaica or Nigeria they wouldn't get away with it (one of my family memebers taught in the Caribbean for years-standards and discipline were amazing), the jumping through hoops for the OFSTED inspection, the obsession with forcing kids to take exams that mean bugger all.

Anyway...this is straying off the original topic rather.

I don't see how any (minor) perceived flaws in KB's character dilute the vital message that she is trying to convey. Even if there is some self-aggrandising and exaggeration in her book, I for one, recognise the truth in everything she is saying. And remember there are a lot of people who have a vested interest in mudslinging and trying to discredit her. It has always been thus when someone whistleblows!

My NT daughter is already being failed by the doctrine of child led learning, at 7 years old. And in no way is she being prepared for the big bad world, one in which she certainly will be able to fail. And boy is that going to come as a devastating shock to her. Utter madness that things were ever allowed to swing so far in one direction, and I just pray the pendulum begins to swing again soon

I think the main problem with KB is that she is seen as being party political, the darling of the Conservatives and the bête noir of Labour. If you are trying to get some sort of cross MN lobbying group going then it mustn't be party political, or you will potentially lose half of your supporters.

deffo agree with it not being seen as aligned to either main political party!

After all our kids will have to survive as adults under whatever doctrine is in power over the course of the 100+ years that one in four of all children born today is expected to live. That's an awful lot of time for educational fashions to swing in and out of style, but they will still need to be able turn up on time for work, dress themselves, count change, read, understand and apply for a job etc.

Evidence based is the opposite of based on some ill-informed politicians whim or whiplash reaction to a journalists headline & our kids deserve no less.

Do you think this guy might be interested in getting involved (though perhaps he would risk his job....) his research I was writing a little review of his book for TAs/teachers for myself, partly so I remember what I've read, partly trying to accumulate evidence that home support is the reason DS is coping at school to some extent.

"He emphasises an accurate assessment of the child?s needs.

He then states that all successful approaches include:
Intensive structured and purposeful teaching.
Clear unambiguous and explicit instructions and teaching strategies.
Use of repetition to consolidate
Reteaching in different contexts and different ways.
Not assuming the child has understood after they have repeated or demonstrated something.
A communicative form that the child understands and can use to convey ideas to others Opportunities for learning with a personal meaning that is interesting and motivating
A high level of adult tuition and support"

Sounds rather like what we're discussing!

Evidence re NHS changes bochead, sadly, I can't see any of the main parties preferring evidence to whim.

Maria He looks very good but I'd have to look a bit more.

I think though, that you can't start by getting people on board. You have to collect parents first, discover and define your principles and direction as a group, gather a bit of momentum and then get endorsement/help possibly as some kind of official launch/publicity thingy.

You can't ask people to be involved until you know what you are asking them to be involved in. Having said that, there is no harm in talking to people and asking them what their opinions are of the direction such a group should or could take and what they might be likely to support or help with if it gets off the ground.

I'm being watched on here again btw - ffs!

Oh no Star, you're being watched again, what madness! I think your plan for small steps, starting from the parent base and making that base as wide as possible is a very good one.

Perhaps we need a meeting?

I did help launch a charity myself once. Just a few of us to start with, we got a name, a board of 'experts' to give us clout and an initial paper together setting out the purpose of our work and the evidence to support what was being said - very non-confrontation, very factual. We then held a conference.

That was 8 years ago and it is still going and often quote in the national press. I am just a Trustee now though.

Hope you're having a good break.

I agree with keeping this away from controversial politicos too.

It can help to have reasoned, expert voices on board. We had an academic, a practising consultant, and another practitioner with tons of experience - all well-known and respected - to add weight to our own 'normal person' voices.

CAn't believe you are being watched again Star.. Perhaps you should be flattered that you are considered worthy and effective enough? That is me trying to be a glass half-full person.

Hope you have a good break.

Any

corn That's really useful to know. From the people that have posted here, if they are truly up for it, I think we have some core skills. I suppose the next step is to 'collect' a core group and establish our aims. It will them be easier for people to join a 'known' quantity than a vague woolly group.

For ourselves we have to establish our outcomes and SMART targets etc. We can't complain that LA's are all over the shop with their opinions and 'meetings' if we then go ahead and do the same (although I agree with Corn that if we start this thing then a face-to-face would be helpful).

Also, we've had a few people here question whether this would be for ASD or disability. This needs to be sorted. ASD is the 'dominant' disability on here (not in order of importance, of course), do we want to take steps to ensure that other disabilities are properly included right from the start, or do we need to start with ASD and then include other disabilities once we have some kind of foothold, or are the needs of children with other disabilities so far from those with ASD that it would be too broad a remit?

Personally, I would like all disabilities included from the outset as I believe my ds only has ASD as a label for convenience (not denying he has ASD, jut that I don't think it is an altogether necessary label except due to the stupid system we have to negotiate), but I know that not everyone agrees.

I do think that outcomes, decent strengths and weaknesses assessments, targetted intervention with SMART targets and opportunities to practise mastering skills is really what all children need regardless of disability (quite possibly just 'regardless')

However, if we are to be all disabilities, we need to ensure there is decent representation from 'other than ASD'!

I have been reading this thread with interest and I'm not sure what I think.

I can see the aim of a group such as this. Certainly. I can see the frustration, and have experienced it. I am uncomfortable with the notion of it only relating to children with ASD, because I feel it is divisive. When all of our children grow up into adults, will it really matter what 'label' they wear? They will still be adults who function well or less well in society.

I also worry that the starting point of this, and the general premise of most MN:SN discussions is 'teacch is rubbish'. The notion that all special schools 'babysit children' instead of educating them. The notion that all LEA's are doing their best to sabotage the education of children with SEN.

The truth is, some schools do Teacch very well. They DO target their resources, target their teaching. They DO record and review data. It is true that sometimes it is hard to use currently used mechanisms for recording and analysing that data, but they do it.

I suppose my reservations are that some of the leaning of this thread is that we are in a 'battle' with LEAs. I think the best way to influence an LEA is to steer from the same side. Show the LEA that they will SAVE money in the long-run by spending a little more short-term. Of course, the way to do that, is to start getting the research that backs it, in a non-threatening way.

But that is just my view.

Yes Lougle.
I agree.
You make no friends by entering into combat.
It is a complex game of diplomacy and patience and making the powers that be understand it will make their job easier and more satisfying.

You are right. A lot of people are doing a great job. the problem is that it is such a lottery, often even within a school.